Scientists excited about new rare plants: recent flames could prompt...

This land was meant to BURN. At regular intervals. If you live up in the hills, you better know it. Sounds like a lot of people did.

These fire adapted plants are like the mythic pheonix that is destroyed by fire and then arises renewed from the ashes.

Fire adapted because the native americans turned them into fire adapted? Don't know what the weather was like before 10,000-15,000 years ago but lightening strikes here are far and few between and without the non native grasses and other invasive species fuels, not sure how a fire got started....

Maybe a neo-lithic coke bottle.

b-present wrote:

Fire adapted because the native americans turned them into fire adapted? Don't know what the weather was like before 10,000-15,000 years ago but lightening strikes here are far and few between and without the non native grasses and other invasive species fuels, not sure how a fire got started....
Maybe a neo-lithic coke bottle.

I'll bet lightning is likely in any area over a long enough time frame -- 20 - 50 years, say. We did have fires started locally by lightning strikes just a couple of years ago. If nobody'd been around, they might have spread wide and long and gone on for months.

we should not jump to any conclusions about the ecosystems and Ohlones and what the place looked like before the europeans arrived.
our challenge imo is to get reconnected with the planet in ways that we used to know before cars, electricity, etc.
Our technologies bring us creature comforts but they also isolate us.

b-present wrote:

Fire adapted because the native americans turned them into fire adapted? Don't know what the weather was like before 10,000-15,000 years ago but lightening strikes here are far and few between and without the non native grasses and other invasive species fuels, not sure how a fire got started....
Maybe a neo-lithic coke bottle.

What do you mean? Maybe in Santa Cruz? There are lightning storms up here in the SLV every year. They happen more frequently in the winter, when things are damp, but start fires nonetheless. And we had lighting-started fires all over the state last summer.

jbd wrote:

we should not jump to any conclusions about the ecosystems and Ohlones and what the place looked like before the europeans arrived...

Who is jumping to conclusions? These facts are known. Europeans brought grazing grasses that brown out in the summer, and those overtook native grasses that stay green (and less flammable) year-round. California did not always hove those golden hills. Other European, invasive imports: broom and blackberry brambles, both of which choke out other plants. Broom is so flammable that even green, moist plants ignite easily (and violently). Its dried seed pods burst in the hot weather, strewing copious amounts of seed in a wide circle around each plant, and that seed is viable for several decades. It can take over a newly cleared hillside in a coupe of years. So we now have forested hills covered in densely overgrown natives that are hungry for fire, intermixed with dense stands of overly prolific, extremely flammable broom, and any open areas are choked with dried European grasses and dried-up thistles (another import). The entire record of what the ecosystem was here 10k or more years ago is preserved in the strata of ancient streambeds, jbd. No one is guessing at any of this.

One correction to the PC Sentinel version of why the Ohlones burned: they did it for their own benefit, and NOT for the benefit of the environment (to "refresh" the forest? Oh, come on, Sentinel!). Burning preserved grasslands that kept their encampments safer from predators, brought grazing game closer to where they could easily hunt it, and encouraged the growth of grasses that they used for grain and handicrafts. Burning made life easier for the Ohlones, so they started fires and let them burn up to the ridges. It was hardly living green, Sentinel. In fact, it was just as self-serving, destructive, and dismissive of the environment as our way of living is now. It was just on a much smaller scale.

Coulrophobia wrote:

<quoted text>
Who is jumping to conclusions? These facts are known. Europeans brought grazing grasses that brown out in the summer, and those overtook native grasses that stay green (and less flammable) year-round.

Etc. etc. True. But manzanita burns like crazy. And as the article says, needs fire to scorch the area before the seeds in the ground will sprout. No fire, no manzanita in a few decades. And ya know, the "white man" didn't bring chaparral. That always burns well, and is often adjacent or interspersed with forest.

Monterey pine need fire to reproduce -- the pine cone seeds don't drop without the heat. And they mainly live 60-100 years. No fire, no Monterey Pine. We have a lot of that in the area, too.

Around here, flammability is not principally about the grass at all. It's about dead trees, dead fuel on the ground, dense growth of flammable bushes, hot cinders traveling on the wind far and wide landing in new places that are ready for fire.

Many closed cone pines need fire to open and let their seeds fall.

But let's get rid of whatever nonnative plants that we can. And start with eucalyptus trees.

The Scream wrote:

<quoted text>
Etc. etc. True. But manzanita burns like crazy. And as the article says, needs fire to scorch the area before the seeds in the ground will sprout. No fire, no manzanita in a few decades. And ya know, the "white man" didn't bring chaparral. That always burns well, and is often adjacent or interspersed with forest.
Monterey pine need fire to reproduce -- the pine cone seeds don't drop without the heat. And they mainly live 60-100 years. No fire, no Monterey Pine. We have a lot of that in the area, too.
Around here, flammability is not principally about the grass at all. It's about dead trees, dead fuel on the ground, dense growth of flammable bushes, hot cinders traveling on the wind far and wide landing in new places that are ready for fire.

Actually, the only native stand of Monterey Pine in this area is out at Ano Nuevo. And chaparral is an eco-zone of varied plants -- mostly native -- not a specific plant.(BTW, there are some who say that even the Ano Nuevo stand of pines is not there naturally.)

Yes, manzanita burns hot and fast, as the Martin Fire illustrated. By the time it gets large it is filled with deadwood, and it tends to lean over onto itself and become dense. Both live and long-dead Manzanita burn easily. The wood rots slowly.

Fallen trees and larger tree branches, on the other hand, don't burn all that well unless they are newly fallen. The wood softens and starts to rot after a few years. It smolders more than it flames. That kind of forest litter is crucial for a healthy forest ecosystem.

What I am afraid of, post-fire, is that broom and brambles will take over the hillsides and drainages before the manzanita can become established. Manzanita grows very slowly. Broom crowds out tree seedlings pretty effectively.

The Scream wrote:

This land was meant to BURN. At regular intervals. If you live up in the hills, you better know it. Sounds like a lot of people did.

"Meant" by whom?

...by Goddess herself (is that the right answer?)

I agree:
Scotch (or is it French) Broom; it could use some eradication. It's an invasive species that just seems to be taking over and crowding out the natives.

OOOHHHHH MY GOODNESS!!!! Please, tell me that this is a joke
about the excitement of manzanita up-shoots and more Kangaroo
rats....this type of thinking is exactly the problem with overly
eager pseudo environments here in Bonny Doon. Here is the real,
not so romantic deal: manzanita roots grow underground
and burn very hot. They are dangerous to our redwood forests as they are very flamable. The kangaroo rats, if I could I would evacuate them
all. They built a nest in my car and are impossible to get rid of.
If you can please keep your enthusiasm to yourself....

I guess I had it all wrong. I was happy with the firefighters. I was giving them the thumbs up. I should have been flipping them off for putting the fires out...

Mountain Mama wrote:

OOOHHHHH MY GOODNESS!!!! Please, tell me that this is a joke
about the excitement of manzanita up-shoots and more Kangaroo
rats....this type of thinking is exactly the problem with overly
eager pseudo environments here in Bonny Doon. Here is the real,
not so romantic deal: manzanita roots grow underground
and burn very hot. They are dangerous to our redwood forests as they are very flamable. The kangaroo rats, if I could I would evacuate them
all. They built a nest in my car and are impossible to get rid of.
If you can please keep your enthusiasm to yourself....

If you really don't want kangaroo rats bothering you anymore please contact the SF Zoo or one of the local University Biology Departments, I'm sure someone among them would love to collect some live 'roo rat specimens to study as the species living in this area is nearly extinct. Personally I would love to see just one; sorry you find them to be such a nuisance.

Mountain Mama wrote:

OOOHHHHH MY GOODNESS!!!! Please, tell me that this is a joke
about the excitement of manzanita up-shoots and more Kangaroo
rats....this type of thinking is exactly the problem with overly
eager pseudo environments here in Bonny Doon. Here is the real,
not so romantic deal: manzanita roots grow underground
and burn very hot. They are dangerous to our redwood forests as they are very flamable. The kangaroo rats, if I could I would evacuate them
all. They built a nest in my car and are impossible to get rid of.
If you can please keep your enthusiasm to yourself....

Huh??? It's wood rats (pack rats) that you are likely to find in your car --not kangaroo rats. And manzanita does not grow in redwood forests. The roots of manzanita do not reach very far beyond the plant. They are no danger to even the lone redwood tree that you might find in a mixed evergreen forest environment.

slightly salty wrote:

<quoted text>
If you really don't want kangaroo rats bothering you anymore please contact the SF Zoo or one of the local University Biology Departments, I'm sure someone among them would love to collect some live 'roo rat specimens to study as the species living in this area is nearly extinct. Personally I would love to see just one; sorry you find them to be such a nuisance.

Seen them in BD.

Coulrophobia wrote:

<quoted text>
...... What I am afraid of, post-fire, is that broom and brambles will take over the hillsides and drainages before the manzanita can become established. Manzanita grows very slowly. Broom crowds out tree seedlings pretty effectively.

Yet now comes the concerns about erosion and ash-wash, down to the creeks and such.'Tis rumored that we're heading for an El Nino winter, yanno. We may need some 'quick' erosion control plants going on!

Ah, this Nature stuff is pretty tricky -- it's always something!! lol

The biological upside of the fire needn't deny the intense gratitude we feel for the firefighters, who all recognize the important ecological role of fire while most expertly doing their jobs saving lives and property.

600 air to ground lightning strikes per year, average, in th SCruz Mnts. Enough for an occassional natural fire.

K-rats still in BD?!! Big surprise to those who've tried finding them...if you are sure you saw them, please let someone at the UC Berkeley museum of vertebrate biology know.

Many thanks to the wise posters of good ecoliterate insights.

Anti-greed wrote:

The biological upside of the fire needn't deny the intense gratitude we feel for the firefighters, who all recognize the important ecological role of fire while most expertly doing their jobs saving lives and property.
600 air to ground lightning strikes per year, average, in th SCruz Mnts. Enough for an occassional natural fire.
K-rats still in BD?!! Big surprise to those who've tried finding them...if you are sure you saw them, please let someone at the UC Berkeley museum of vertebrate biology know.
Many thanks to the wise posters of good ecoliterate insights.

Yep, I'm sure I've seen them on my property. In fact, I found a dead one (sorry to tell you) maybe a couple or three years ago, so I was able to get a good look at it. K-rat for sure. They look nothing like the very common (very cute, IMHO) wood rats.