Catholic Church gives D.C. ultimatum on same-sex marriage issue

[Pagan and Proud]

HappilyCelibateChristian wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sure you would say the same thing when the Catholic Church works in support of civil rights for ethnic minorities and as an advocate for victims of war.

Only when those minorities represent either an untapped proselitizing opportunity or are direct members of the church. Ulterior motives show that their "help" clearly isn't just "christian charity".

[Pagan and Proud]

medic0506 wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm relatively new to this side of the issue so I'm not up to snuff with all the legal fights going on, but I would imagine that your first point is being litigated as we speak.

No actually the majority of the "litigation" is being actively doged.

medic0506 wrote:

As to the second point, that is not necessarily true. Two weeks ago I was adamantly arguing against gay marriage. Some of the folks I was arguing with took the time to continue talking to me and made me realize some things that the general public don't see. If I can be swayed, so can many, many others. In my opinion, the tact they used with me, is the only way to achieve equality.

Yes actually it is true. What they are doing is threatening to pull out ALL of their efforts, not just the ones that may be affected by the law. It is in effect Blackmail. So YOU changed YOUR mind, that's really nice for YOU, but how many thousands are unwilling to even consider their stance? Far more than are willing to listen.

[medic0506]

ScottyMatic wrote:

If the church has a contract with the city, and has recieved funding under that contract, then they are obligated to fulfill the term of the contract--unless the contract they signed has the words "unless gays are allowed to marry" explicit in the terms of the agreement.
If they fail to fulfill the term of the contract--during that term abiding by the city's non-discrimination laws, then they should be sued by the city for breach of contract and violation of the non-discrimination laws ...and have their incredibly lucrative tax exempt status revoked.
In fact, all religious tax-exemptions for any organization taking-in over a million dollars in contributions per year should have their tax exempt status revoked.
There! Budget deficit solved!
Religion is among the most lucrative INDUSTRIES in America! According to the Boston Globe, in 2001 the Catholic Church's take in the U.S. alone was $102 BILLION dollars.
Consider that THAT is about 10% of the total amount of actual U.S. currency in circulation.
One fourth of that amount is how much money the Federal Government allocated to rebuild New Orleans after Katrina.
$102 billion is four times the current net worth of Warren Buffet, and five times the current net worth of Bill Gates. In fact it's 31 times the average net worth of the world's 793 billionaires, according to Forbes Magazine.
I guarantee you: the Pope is the single richest dude on the planet, and he doesn't pay ANY taxes. I guarantee you: his hat costs more than YOUR HOUSE.
I say that they and all the other big-business churches should be required to pay taxes like everyone else! Then there would be enough tax revenue for D.C. to provide a whole lot more social services... without brow beating people with oppressive and backward religious dogma as the price of a bowl of soup.

Not sure about the laws in D.C., but it seems that most times when a contract is entered into, if one party drastically changes what is expected of the other party, that contract will automatically become null...not sure how that will play out.
As for taking away the churches tax exempt status, be careful what you wish for. Keep in mind, there are tax exempt gay rights groups,
as well. That tactic can work both ways.
Here is an interesting article on that subject, written by a man who is married to a man, so it's not like I'm posting Rush Limbaugh's opinion...

http://www.bilerico.com/2009/11/attacking_tax...

[aRodeojock]

medic0506 wrote:

First, I am not catholic...but I can see both sides of this issue...it's easy to say "Screw THE catholic church", it doesn't sound like much of a loss...but that church is made up of many, many potential voters, and gay marriage might be put up for a popular vote...if that's the case, it's not just catholics that might vote against you...anyone with religious beliefs, of any faith, will be sympathetic to their cause...just my opinion

Well, in DC Catholics aren't very numerous. In MD and VA that may be different. The District is home to more Baptists than Catholics.

As for an actual referendum, it's very unlikely that the DC Human Rights Commission and the Board of Ethics and Elections would sanction it either. First, it goes completely against the Human Rights ordinances that were put in place when the District was given jurisdiction over it's government in the Home Rule Charter. Second, the DC Human Rights Commission has already ruled against a referendum for the first SSM law that was put in place that recognizes marriages conducted in other jurisdictions.

All-in-all, the Catholic Church is going to have to put up or shut up. They are, at least initially, going to lose this battle. The DC City Council doesn't appreciate being told what to do from outsiders (churches, corporatations, or Congress) and generally does what's right over what's popular.

[medic0506]

Pagan and Proud wrote:

<quoted text>Only when those minorities represent either an untapped proselitizing opportunity or are direct members of the church. Ulterior motives show that their "help" clearly isn't just "christian charity".

Trying to convince others that their way is the right way is a major part of most of the worlds religions, there is no changing that fact...Regardless of the motives, they are there helping.

[RnL_4EVR_MARRIED]

Pagan and Proud wrote:

<quoted text>No actually the majority of the "litigation" is being actively doged.<quoted text>Yes actually it is true. What they are doing is threatening to pull out ALL of their efforts, not just the ones that may be affected by the law. It is in effect Blackmail. So YOU changed YOUR mind, that's really nice for YOU, but how many thousands are unwilling to even consider their stance? Far more than are willing to listen.

Merry Meet Pagan,
Please try and be thankful that he has had a change of heart.......sometimes we win this battle one person at a time. If we all tried to listen to others......we might find a workable solution.

I am not saying you don't have a right to voice your frustration.......because you know that I agree with you on many issues......but not attacking someone who is learning about our fight.

Blessed Be

[Reason]

Gee, DC would be short the $10 million the Catholic Church provides for services to the straight poor, etc.. I wonder how they could make that up. Here's an idea: Repeal their tax exemption! Problem solved.

[medic0506]

Pagan and Proud wrote:

<quoted text>No actually the majority of the "litigation" is being actively doged.<quoted text>Yes actually it is true. What they are doing is threatening to pull out ALL of their efforts, not just the ones that may be affected by the law. It is in effect Blackmail. So YOU changed YOUR mind, that's really nice for YOU, but how many thousands are unwilling to even consider their stance? Far more than are willing to listen.

You're right, there are many that will never even listen to any reason at all. But the "attack" strategy is not going to work.

Btw, I lived most of my life in Rensselaer...ever heard of it?

[medic0506]

RnL_4EVR_MARRIED wrote:

<quoted text>
Merry Meet Pagan,
Please try and be thankful that he has had a change of heart.......sometimes we win this battle one person at a time. If we all tried to listen to others......we might find a workable solution.
I am not saying you don't have a right to voice your frustration.......because you know that I agree with you on many issues......but not attacking someone who is learning about our fight.
Blessed Be

Hi nammo!!

[IndyStefan]

BEE33 wrote:

<quoted text>Hahahahahahahaha! So far I'm the only one to get a red X for disagree! Guess I must have my own personal stalker/hater! Too funny, too stupid!

I'm not seeing it.

[medic0506]

aRodeojock wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, in DC Catholics aren't very numerous. In MD and VA that may be different. The District is home to more Baptists than Catholics.
As for an actual referendum, it's very unlikely that the DC Human Rights Commission and the Board of Ethics and Elections would sanction it either. First, it goes completely against the Human Rights ordinances that were put in place when the District was given jurisdiction over it's government in the Home Rule Charter. Second, the DC Human Rights Commission has already ruled against a referendum for the first SSM law that was put in place that recognizes marriages conducted in other jurisdictions.
All-in-all, the Catholic Church is going to have to put up or shut up. They are, at least initially, going to lose this battle. The DC City Council doesn't appreciate being told what to do from outsiders (churches, corporatations, or Congress) and generally does what's right over what's popular.

most religious folks are going to side with the catholics because of religious rights

you may be right about the referendum, as i said, i'm new to this side of the issue and am not up to snuff on all the legal issues

[Pagan and Proud]

medic0506 wrote:

<quoted text>
Trying to convince others that their way is the right way is a major part of most of the worlds religions, there is no changing that fact...Regardless of the motives, they are there helping.

Not if there isn't something in it for them they aren't. Where's the Catholic drive to help the Muslim Victims of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Sorry, it just doesn't wash and the fact that in many places the Catholic Church goes directly against Health Organization recommendations by refusing to mention condoms in the prevention of AIDS. That kind of "help" isn't needed.

[Pagan and Proud]

medic0506 wrote:

<quoted text>
You're right, there are many that will never even listen to any reason at all. But the "attack" strategy is not going to work.
Btw, I lived most of my life in Rensselaer...ever heard of it?

The "attack" is simply answering their "attack".

[Pagan and Proud]

medic0506 wrote:

<quoted text>
most religious folks are going to side with the catholics because of religious rights
you may be right about the referendum, as i said, i'm new to this side of the issue and am not up to snuff on all the legal issues

And presenting it as a 'religious rights' issue is a disengenuous tactic at very best.

[BEE33]

IndyStefan wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not seeing it.

The tally can change with subsequent votes. What you see at any given time is the 3 icons given the most votes at that time.

[Windy City Player]

Good for them! About time they take a stand. They are not threatening or eroding any law like this article states, they are standing firm on what they believe in. It's called freedom of religion! Way to go Catholic church!!!!

[IndyStefan]

medic0506 wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm relatively new to this side of the issue so I'm not up to snuff with all the legal fights going on, but I would imagine that your first point is being litigated as we speak.
As to the second point, that is not necessarily true. Two weeks ago I was adamantly arguing against gay marriage. Some of the folks I was arguing with took the time to continue talking to me and made me realize some things that the general public don't see. If I can be swayed, so can many, many others. In my opinion, the tact they used with me, is the only way to achieve equality.

You should tell us more about that.

As far as the catholic church's threats. DC should tell them that they can take their 'Help' and jump in the Potomac.

What's really happening here is a continuation of their efforts to shift the blame for child molesting onto the gay community when this is a lie. When the church bears false witness I believe it is the worst sin possible. They continue purging gay men from the priesthood on the premise that they are a threat to children - a lie and they know it. This is another dodge from the same play-book. They simply refuse to take responsibility for their own sins. Shift - shift - shift. They now must continue lying to cover their previous sins - an effort which has no good end. Eventually it will bring down the vatican in disgrace.

fwiw, I am a catholic but I will not set foot in a catholic church as long as the leadership continues lying and bringing shame upon the church. As I type this, the catholic church and the anglican church in uganda are pushing the passage of a law providing the death penalty for simply being gay! Of course, uganda spewed up idi amin, soooo...

[JohnInToronto]

Hm, they have a lovely basilica in the city. It is very large and might make a great auditorium if taken by eminent domain.

The government of the United States needs to start thinking more like that of a certain king with six wives.

[medic0506]

Pagan and Proud wrote:

<quoted text>Not if there isn't something in it for them they aren't. Where's the Catholic drive to help the Muslim Victims of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Sorry, it just doesn't wash and the fact that in many places the Catholic Church goes directly against Health Organization recommendations by refusing to mention condoms in the prevention of AIDS. That kind of "help" isn't needed.

Fair enough...we'll e-mail the Pope and tell him to let them starve

[medic0506]

Pagan and Proud wrote:

<quoted text>And presenting it as a 'religious rights' issue is a disengenuous tactic at very best.

How is it not a religious rights issue...A gay/lesbian group goes to a church and wants to rent the place for a meeting, or a gay/lesbian trying to gain employment with the church...you feel that the church should have to lay their beliefs aside in order to accomodate those who are obviously just trying to instigate trouble?