McCain's health plan: A threat to employer plans?

There's a great unknown about Sen. John McCain's health plan: How many employers would drop insurance coverage for their workers because of his tax policies?

[The Knowing]

From the Boardroom of Arthur Jensen on the freemarket.

Jensen: You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it!! Is that clear?! You think you've merely stopped a business deal. That is not the case. The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance!

You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immense, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petrol-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, Reich marks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels.

It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU WILL ATONE!
Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale?

You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and ITT and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today.
What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state -- Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minim ax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do.

We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality -- one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock, all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused.

[Can you spare a dime]

Pure BS from both sides in Washington about financing social insurance programs. Starting in the 90s, employers were going underground to avoid all taxes, social security, UI, etc., etc.

I told one employer he would never get away with this and he would be caught. He said, "At least I'll have a business for a few years. If I try to pay these taxes I'll be out of business and working for a competitor who is underground".

I was wrong. He did, and does, get away with it. I called many US senators and asked if they had, or knew of, data on how large the underground economy is. No one had the slightest idea and knew of no studies on it. One prominent staffer was somewhat annoyed that anyone should ask the question. "How can you possibly measure what people are hiding?" was his abrupt answer.

There are, right now, factories in NYC employing over 100 people that don't exist. They have no names, no employees and pay nothing to anybody. However, they do contribute to politicians. Mostly Democrats.

[wyojake]

Fact - The employers would drop their own health plans. Fact - People would suffer because they couldn't replace what they had no longer being part of a group. More erosion of worker's rights. Higher health care costs. More emergency care - less preventive care. The retired would lose also. Same old same old. Enough with the lies. Enough with the two-faced rhetoric.

[R and B Lover]

wyojake wrote:

Fact - The employers would drop their own health plans. Fact - People would suffer because they couldn't replace what they had no longer being part of a group. More erosion of worker's rights. Higher health care costs. More emergency care - less preventive care. The retired would lose also. Same old same old. Enough with the lies. Enough with the two-faced rhetoric.

I agree

[Summer Rain]

Can you spare a dime wrote:

Pure BS from both sides in Washington about financing social insurance programs. Starting in the 90s, employers were going underground to avoid all taxes, social security, UI, etc., etc.
I told one employer he would never get away with this and he would be caught. He said, "At least I'll have a business for a few years. If I try to pay these taxes I'll be out of business and working for a competitor who is underground".
I was wrong. He did, and does, get away with it. I called many US senators and asked if they had, or knew of, data on how large the underground economy is. No one had the slightest idea and knew of no studies on it. One prominent staffer was somewhat annoyed that anyone should ask the question. "How can you possibly measure what people are hiding?" was his abrupt answer.
There are, right now, factories in NYC employing over 100 people that don't exist. They have no names, no employees and pay nothing to anybody. However, they do contribute to politicians. Mostly Democrats.

You display an astounding ignorance of recent political history. FYI, the GOP has been responsible for the enforcement of immigration laws and border security for the last 7 years. And except for a brief 2 year period, the Congress has ben under GOP control since 1996.(Yes, control since 2006 has been nominally Democratic, but since the GOP has filibustered everything Cheney didn't like, the Dems have been unable to pass anything to benefit the US. Apparently the GOP sees tantrums as a governing strategy.)

The vast bulk of corporate financing has been to the GOP. The Swift Boat Liars in 2004 were entirely corporate funded. Google T. Boone Pickens.

I know you have a candidate you can only sell with lies, but really, you could try to come up with something beleivable. Better go back to the GOP and tell them you need a fresh load of bs. This one reeks.

[frank miller]

America with its numerous Unive-
rsities, Colleges, and Trade Schools was before Globalization
{to appease China by converting
swords into ploughshares,as President R.Nixon realized that
we would never win a conflict
in that part of the world:
lost Nth.Korea,VietNam..} had
much technical, and management
replacements for retiring
Industrial personnel! Now
since about 1990 America
has not only given up its
thousands of factories to
China,India,Mexico,Canada
but most of the cheap health
insurance, and workmen's comp
premiums by virtue of Group/
Union premiums made low!
Small businesses filled
that vacuum, but since most
don't even clear $20,000 after
taxes, and hire mostly unskilled service labor HOW
CAN THEY MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS
OF MILLIONS OF GROUP INSURED
MANUFACTURING WORKERS MOST
EMPLOYED 3 SHIFTS A DAY WHICH
COVERED DOCTORS/HOSPITALS/
DENTAL COSTS FOR CURRENT &
RETIREES? IN OTHER WORDS WE
HAVE SOLD THE STORE TO PACI-
FIC RIM NATIONS WHO NOW
ENJOY THE SAME LOW COST HEALTH
COVERAGE WE HAD FOR OVER A
CENTURY? THE SOLUTION IS
TO INSIST THAT 40-50% OF
ALL COMMODITIES MANUFACTURING
MUST RETURN TO THE U.S.A
AND I DON'T MEAN GREEN INDUS-
TRIES WHICH ARE SIMPLY ANO-
THER FORM OF SMALL BUSINESSES!
F.M.

[Summer Rain]

wyojake wrote:

Fact - The employers would drop their own health plans. Fact - People would suffer because they couldn't replace what they had no longer being part of a group. More erosion of worker's rights. Higher health care costs. More emergency care - less preventive care. The retired would lose also. Same old same old. Enough with the lies. Enough with the two-faced rhetoric.

McCain will tax the employer's contribution for health insurance as income. Here's the problem with conservative ideology and health care:

Libertarian Legacy? Ron Paul's Campaign Manager, 49, Dies Uninsured, Of Pneumonia, Leaving family $400,000 Debt
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-kall/libert...

That debt was for medical bills. The poor guy had four kids and could not afford $300 for health insurance. HuffPo links to a site that is taking donations for the bills, if anyone wants to help.

McCain would allow health insurer's to register in any state offer insurance across state lines. This would destroy state regulation of health insurers and allow insurers to register in the stats with the least regulation. That would set off a race to the bottom in terms of cherry picking the healthy and wealthy, while leaving everyone else to die. He would do absolutely nothing for the 48 million uninsured, most of whom are employed adults and children.(Only 52% of employers offer health insurance.)

Obama would regulate the insurance companies heavily to eliminate cherry picking, ensure that the present Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan is the minimum package of benefits offered, mandate that 70% of premium dollars are spent on health care, and subsidize catastrophic care beyond a certain level (TBD). Insurance for children would be mandatory and lower income families will be subsidized. He would mandate public outcomes reporting on the net for providers so you would no longer have to wonder if your local hospital/doctor kills people and would create a board to enforce regulations for those who choose to purchase insurance on the private market.

We will all encounter birth, old age, sickness and death. With our votes, we can choose to care for each other. Isn't that what civilized societies are supposed to do?

[frank miller]

Take General Electric as an
example of a corporation that
used to employ 100's of thousand
factory workers making refrigera
tors, washing machines,telephone
answering machines, light bulbs,
irons, etc..Now as I found out these last 10-15 years they are
all made in China, Mexico! And
the quality is so bad{1-2 GE
lightbulbs made in Mexico
out of a pack of burn out
either right away, or after
3 months; whereas I still have
GE bulbs made in the U.S.
that are still burning after
27 years!} This very shortened
life expectancy of bulbs,
and major appliances is a
boon for GE, China, Mexico
and the very small service
retailers who can't even
afford low cost health insu-
rance , pensions,401K's,stock
options for the retirees
when compared when these
commodities were made her!
You multiply the same situation
by the 100 Fortune 100 Industrials who also moved manufacturing out of the U.S.
and no devaluation of the
U.S.dollar will ever make up
for the yearly $385 billions
trade deficit with China alone
these past 10-15 years!!
F.M.

[Summer Rain]

frank miller wrote:

America with its numerous Unive-
rsities, Colleges, and Trade Schools was before Globalization
{to appease China by converting
swords into ploughshares,as President R.Nixon realized that
we would never win a conflict
in that part of the world:
lost Nth.Korea,VietNam..} had
much technical, and management
replacements for retiring
Industrial personnel! Now
since about 1990 America
has not only given up its
thousands of factories to
China,India,Mexico,Canada
but most of the cheap health
insurance, and workmen's comp
premiums by virtue of Group/
Union premiums made low!
Small businesses filled
that vacuum, but since most
don't even clear $20,000 after
taxes, and hire mostly unskilled service labor HOW
CAN THEY MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS
OF MILLIONS OF GROUP INSURED
MANUFACTURING WORKERS MOST
EMPLOYED 3 SHIFTS A DAY WHICH
COVERED DOCTORS/HOSPITALS/
DENTAL COSTS FOR CURRENT &
RETIREES? IN OTHER WORDS WE
HAVE SOLD THE STORE TO PACI-
FIC RIM NATIONS WHO NOW
ENJOY THE SAME LOW COST HEALTH
COVERAGE WE HAD FOR OVER A
CENTURY? THE SOLUTION IS
TO INSIST THAT 40-50% OF
ALL COMMODITIES MANUFACTURING
MUST RETURN TO THE U.S.A
AND I DON'T MEAN GREEN INDUS-
TRIES WHICH ARE SIMPLY ANO-
THER FORM OF SMALL BUSINESSES!
F.M.

Whoa, brother! It's bad. Its going to get worse. We can still work our way through this, if we vote right in November.

Offshore manufacturing took a huge boost in 2001, after Bush proposed a huge tax break for corporations who moved jobs offshore. The tax breaks will be reversed if Obama is elected. McCain will enlarge them.

The GOP has destroyed the strong dollar and destabilized the Mideast. Although our economy is in ruins, the high cost of transporting goods will bring factory jobs back to the US.

Green energy is presently a small business field. Obama has proposed a $15 Billion yearly commitment for ten years to get green energy up and running across the US. That will jumpstart green energy into a major economic sector real quick, while creating millions of new jobs across the US. There is already in production pistons for a offshore wave powered generating grids, and the Navy has bought 1000 one pound hydrogen generators. That technology will be in cars in three years. Add that to the enormous potential for sun and wind generation and you've got enormous potential for weening this country off of its oil addiction. McCain offers expanded drilling, which may bring down the cost of a gallon of gas by .25 in 2020.

The new GI Bill will produce well educated managers, and there is an enormous pool of talent which has been unable to access college over the last 7 years, due to lack of funding. Obama has proposed sdditional funds for education. McCain has said nothing.

The biggest drags on our economy have been wartime tax cuts for the wealthy, health care and interest on the ($120,000 a SECOND) debt to finance the Iraq war. Obama will change those conditions, McCain won't.

Lastly, Obama has proposed creating two new national insurance companies to provide health insurance for those who cannot access it through an employer. Combine this with subsidies for low income families and everyone will have insurance. Health care will no longer be a drag on the working and middle class. So buck up and vote for change.

[E-Thug Life]

I'm calling on the experts on this one. Why can we not all just have affordable health insurance, like car/home/etc?

From the professionals in the industry that I have talked to, they say there is no reason.

Why do I have to go work for a big company just to get a reasonable rate. Plus, I still wouldn't be able to pick my provider.

I chose to be a small business owner, because of that, I pay out the nose for insurance. Why is this? Do we not have a free market, expect for health care? Does the gov't not say that they support small business.

If socialized medicine ends up being anything like VA health care or the UK's system, no thanks. I still feel we should have the ability to go out and get our own reasonable priced insurance.

[Summer Rain]

E-Thug Life wrote:

I'm calling on the experts on this one. Why can we not all just have affordable health insurance, like car/home/etc?
From the professionals in the industry that I have talked to, they say there is no reason.
Why do I have to go work for a big company just to get a reasonable rate. Plus, I still wouldn't be able to pick my provider.
I chose to be a small business owner, because of that, I pay out the nose for insurance. Why is this? Do we not have a free market, expect for health care? Does the gov't not say that they support small business.
If socialized medicine ends up being anything like VA health care or the UK's system, no thanks. I still feel we should have the ability to go out and get our own reasonable priced insurance.

Obama will offer you that choice. He will not create socialized medicine. He will regulate the insurance companies and work through the system as it exists today. It will not be single payer, government controlled or universal health care (except for children). Please read my posts above and tell me what you think.

[Summer Rain]

PS E Thug Life, Good to see you back!

[E-Thug Life]

Summer Rain wrote:

PS E Thug Life, Good to see you back!

Good to see you too. And I read all your posts, you definitely did your homework. That is refreshing to see on a public forum. Remind me not to be on the other side of you on any issue :)

If Obama holds true to what he has proposed, I am all about. I will definitely be paying close attention all the way up to the election.

On a side note, I think our friend on the McCain GI Bill discussion has ran away. I encourage him/her to prove us wrong, but it's real hard to argue facts.

[frank miller]

Answer to Summer Rain #11: Green
energy projects are not replace-
ment projects for the 20MM re-
frigerators, the 20MM TV sets,
the 120 MM office, and home el-
ectronic devices,the 120MM cell
phones,the 20MM washer-dryers,
and the list goes on...We are
also talking about all the
raw material manufacturers,
subcontractors which used
to support all the Fortune 100
manufacturers who now manufac-
ture off-shore!!
Although well-intentioned
green energy projects are
adjunct not replacement!As
soon as solar panel manufac-
turers get up to speed, and
attain lets say 20MM customers
they will move the entire
factory offshore to China,
and Mexico! As we have seen,
many times and in many ways,
good intentions are at the
root of our most disastrous
public policies!

There must be an ethical
motivation for these Fortune
100 Manufacturers to return,
or stay here,along with tax
incentives! Can Obama who
keeps changing his mind for
political expediency do it?
McCain is too old and does not have the emotional energy
of lets say a Clinton or a
Kennedy to inspire change!
Presidents are just figure
heads? Its Congress who makes
the rules!!
F.M.

[Summer Rain]

Obviously you are talking from a position of either bias or ignorance here, since you echo the right wing lie that Obama is always changing his position. I don't think you are worth my time.

[Summer Rain]

E-Thug Life wrote:

<quoted text>
Good to see you too. And I read all your posts, you definitely did your homework. That is refreshing to see on a public forum. Remind me not to be on the other side of you on any issue :)
If Obama holds true to what he has proposed, I am all about. I will definitely be paying close attention all the way up to the election.
On a side note, I think our friend on the McCain GI Bill discussion has ran away. I encourage him/her to prove us wrong, but it's real hard to argue facts.

Sorry it took me so long to get back here. I've been arguing! ;-) If I'm ever wrong on my facts, I'm happy to admit it. Don't hesitate to correct me. I very rarely am. I think I've only been wrong once on this board. I posted as legitimate a drive time spoof on McCain. What can I say? I do books on tape, and the voice was perfect! I immediately apologized.

What did I tell you? Facts are like garlic to these intellectual vampires. Reality is not their strong suit. They seem to be boycotting the real news stories and dragging up threads from months ago to play with. I'm sticking with the current stuff for the time being.

See you around!

[frank miller]

Answer to Summer Rain KY #17: The Dow Jones index is around
11,250 as of today! Counting
inflation from the same number
when Clinton left office in 2000
its equivalent to 7350! It should be about 16,000 now! Do
you think green energy projects
are going to bring the Dow Jones
back because Obama is President?
F.M.

[OSETIAN fack americans]

MAKKEIN its onli st upid a litle IRISH
-jewish dolle
hahahahahahaaaaa
and all of u r morons if ud vote him

[OSETIAN fack americans]

Summer Rain wrote:

<quoted text>
Whoa, brother! It's bad. Its going to get worse. We can still work our way through this, if we vote right in November.
Offshore manufacturing took a huge boost in 2001, after Bush proposed a huge tax break for corporations who moved jobs offshore. The tax breaks will be reversed if Obama is elected. McCain will enlarge them.
The GOP has destroyed the strong dollar and destabilized the Mideast. Although our economy is in ruins, the high cost of transporting goods will bring factory jobs back to the US.
Green energy is presently a small business field. Obama has proposed a $15 Billion yearly commitment for ten years to get green energy up and running across the US. That will jumpstart green energy into a major economic sector real quick, while creating millions of new jobs across the US. There is already in production pistons for a offshore wave powered generating grids, and the Navy has bought 1000 one pound hydrogen generators. That technology will be in cars in three years. Add that to the enormous potential for sun and wind generation and you've got enormous potential for weening this country off of its oil addiction. McCain offers expanded drilling, which may bring down the cost of a gallon of gas by .25 in 2020.
The new GI Bill will produce well educated managers, and there is an enormous pool of talent which has been unable to access college over the last 7 years, due to lack of funding. Obama has proposed sdditional funds for education. McCain has said nothing.
The biggest drags on our economy have been wartime tax cuts for the wealthy, health care and interest on the ($120,000 a SECOND) debt to finance the Iraq war. Obama will change those conditions, McCain won't.
Lastly, Obama has proposed creating two new national insurance companies to provide health insurance for those who cannot access it through an employer. Combine this with subsidies for low income families and everyone will have insurance. Health care will no longer be a drag on the working and middle class. So buck up and vote for change.

america its banch of munkies ruled by jews
ffffuuuuc u all

[frank miller]

Answer to Ocetian Moscow Russia
#21! You are partially right!"
America rules the world. Israel
rules Wshington!" Said by a member of the Israel Parliament
circa 2005!
F.M.