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Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

I think your an idiot.  (Jun 24, 2012 | post #21726)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

The way I see it, it isn't doing anything but shuffling the money and cost. The real argument is why the poor cannot afford to pay their own healthcare. It's a simple sentance but would reqire a thousand pages to explain because everything is entangled with everything else. That's why I think a solution will be in dividng the system in some form or another. Getting everything untangled and straightened out in a way that it all works together. We can design a spaceship and go to the moon...surely we can design a good working economy.  (Jun 24, 2012 | post #21717)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Not bad ideas Heat. I'm not sure I'm following this statement... "I see it this way, considering the uninsured are not covered now, would be to pool only those uninsured together. Establish a cost of basic care to establish a premium. Drop the mandate on all providers thereby forcing those without coverage to seek it through the "poor peoples exchange". " I understand pooling the uninsured together and establishing a cost of basic care....but who pays for it? The uninsured are that way because of the lack of money. I could see making healthcare cheaper...but I don't know if it would be cheap enough....and I worry about the quality of care over the long run. Tort reform I agree with. It's another way to lower cost. This addresses that segment of the problem. The problem as I see it is that money is just being moved around from one pocket to another. A real solution will have to figure out a way for people to have enough money to pay their own way. Healthcare, jobs, immigration, and the economy are all entangled together. A good solution should address all these issues together.  (Jun 24, 2012 | post #21716)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Dusty wrote: " Why do you never identify the problem when the problem is the right wing?" Because it is not a right or left problem whether you want it to be or not. "Since when is the attempt at survival not a right? It has and always will be a right. Even Jews tried to fight back against the gas chambers at times." Since when was free healthcare a "right"? Surviving is human nature...expecting everyone else to pay for it is not. "You attacked TFallen who is a screaming liberal but who is absolutely correct about what he said to Heat. You had no business in that conversation from the stance you took. You made a right wing attack on a truthful statement in defense of Packing Heat." I didn't defend anyone...I pointed out his fallacy. " You're a right winger. A more articulate, better education likely, more deceitful and deceptive but you're a right winger. And you're the kind of right winger that is destroying America because you can sound rational and reasonable but your end game is all to arrive at the destruction of everyone but the ultra rich." Hardly. Any right winger can read my post above and conclude I am no right winger. "obamacare may not be the solution, we need to study". That is just unbelievable. What would you like to do? Study it another 3 decades? The middle class won't survive another 3 decades. Nice end run." This was my statement..." Obamacare may not be the answer. It may not "do enough". If nothing else be honest. This is a perfect example of saying what I didn't...making a straw man...attacking it instead of my statement...then corgratulating yourself. Nowhere I have I said we need to "study for 3 decades".  (Jun 24, 2012 | post #21715)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

So "how" to divide the system requires some thought. Most of you already know of my post on workfare programs. We already know the government spends and the taxpayers pay an x amount of dollars now on healthcare. As I stated about the hypothetical workfare program the government would provide for all the needs of those who couldn't and enrolled in the program. The government could train healthcare providers in exchange for services for those on the program. In a sense...your training the less fortunate to take care of the less fortunate. And as you do that your teaching the critical skills necessary for moving into the free market. Once people are trained enough to find employment in the free market they move out of the program and into taxpayer status. The government needs to find a way it can fill that gap between the poor and the rich. It needs to offer training and job skills instead of handouts. But it needs to do it in a way that promotes self sufficiency and desire to get out of the program...because more freedom and more money is available to those that do. As it is now, the government pays private enterprise to train and assist the less fortunate. This is where the corruption is. The government needs to get private enterprise off the teat. If the government assumes the responsibility of training and establishing medical facilities for those on the program...then insurance is a non issue. The governement is itself the healthcare insurer. It is paid for by the labor of those on the program with some assistance from taxes collected through the free market. The same could apply for a substantial amount of medicare costs. The idea is to make a more self sufficient system. One that compliments the free market while at the same time lessening the burden on it. Those who are eligable for the program would still have a choice to be in it or not...but handouts would be curtailed to those who chose to not participate. In essense....do what you can to make it in the free market...if not the government will help you to make it in the free market. But eliminate the free handouts for nothing in return. This does not apply to those who are physically or mentally incapable of caring for themselves.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21704)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Heat wrote: "Negative effects of socialized medicine. 1. People take advantage of things when they're 'free'. But it isn't really free. It's paid for with taxes. 2. Wait times increase drastically. 3. The availability of doctors and hospital beds decreases." These are all technically true and are the "arguments " of the right. "The only way to counteract that is to limit availability and limit service, or magically get more doctors and hospitals. Eventually, as history has shown, demand on the system exceeds the funding. This leads to health care operating like every other government program, requiring rationing or more funding." This is another right viewpoint that does have some merit. "Instead of doctors and patients determining what's best the government takes on that responsibility. As part of the rationing they decide what procedures or medications are necessary." Cost has to be considered but the system now needs to be changed. Cost is a very big part of that. "There's a reason why thousands of people from all over the world come to the United States for their medical care, it's available, on their terms, when they want it." It's a great system for those who can afford it. Those who cannot...not so much. " Health care, between Medicare and direct subsidies, is already 1/3 of the US federal budget.' I don't know if your numbers are correct...but if they are...then is there anything we could do to make a better system that didn't use anymore than that? Here's the deal Heat....the genie is out of the bottle....we're not going to have less healthcare, less welfair, less anything. We're going to have to figure out a way to do more and better with what we already spend now. We are going to have to come up with the best socialized healthcare plan in the world. Everyone who is under a certain income bracket is going to have to be able to get free healthcare. Everyone above that certain income bracket is going to have to pay full cost. It will have to be divided. This is why I asked earlier what would be considered a living wage. Because up till a person or family is above that living wage...they can't afford healthcare. The system now is busted...because people who can afford it have to pay for those who cannot in increased fees. All that does is make it more and more unaffordable. If we can get all the people who cannot afford healthcare off the freemarket healthcare system...then that would ease the costs. Everyone that can't pay wouldn't be draining on all those that do. It makes healthcare more affordable at a lower income bracket. Corruption is all in the healthcare field. And it isn't just insurance companies. A lot of it is in what healthcare providers are billing the government through medicare. That needs to be dealt with also. Like you...I'm not particularly fond of Obamacare...but for a different reason....it doesn't solve the problems even though it is for all the right reasons. But Dusty is right....we need socialized healthcare...but there needs to be a way to do it that doesn't kill the free enterprise system. We still want the best in the world...but for everyone...not just those who can afford it...and not "rationing " for those who cannot.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21703)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Dusty wrote: "You may have convinced yourself you're a moderate but you're not. You cannot possibly be a moderate and defend the ultra rich as you do in the name of "free enterprise". " To defend free enterprise is not the same thing as defending the ultra rich. "There is no such thing as free enterprise in the USA today." Not far from the truth. " Socialized medicine is the ONLY possible way for this country to not sink into third world status in the area of health care." You may be right...but Obamacare may not be the answer. It may not "do enough". " Insurance companies are among those who are suffocating the middle class. My way or the highway? How about SURVIVAL?" I understand about the insurance companies. But the issue of "survival " was not always a "right". The right thing to do...probably so...because we should have compassion enough to do something about it. " You want to "debate" these issues as though they are debatable." How the issues are to be solved is "debatable ". "You claim to be a business owner and yet you seem to know nothing about how business works." I know very well how business works and I am quite successful at it. I would also like that opportunity to be available to everyone. 'How the corruption attached to the insurance industry/medical complex works." i understand very well how it works and how it is corrupted. " Big business is suffocating the life out of America with intent." I agree 100% " And you want to talk about "straw man" arguments and "my way or the highway". " The type of "arguments " you use to state a point I can't help. "This is not "my way". This is the only logical, mathematical solution to one of the worst problems facing the USA." There is always another way even though it may not be obvious at the time. If your opinion is that Obamacare is the only solution then that may be right or wrong. Time will tell. " Moderates are the most educated, intelligent, centered, rational people left in this country and there aren't that many left." I agree with that statement. But there is not only "one" moderate left. " As America is purposefully dumbed down the extremists of both left and right grow while the puppet masters get the stupids to support their own demise.The dumber they are the easier they fall" I agree 100% "You got a bunch of semi literate idiots like Packing Heat all over the landscape in America who might as well be hillbillies in Appalachia for all the stupidity they believe." This is still America...and people do have a right to their opinions regardless. A true moderate can find ways to bring some of those people together. "And you, as you say, find something of value in their rhetoric and dogma." That's right. I try to see the good things about you, Minute, Heat, WMCOL, etc...everyone has opinions that are shaped by life events that I may not have experienced. To judge everyone from my own perspective would be wrong. "You're no moderate. You're a right winger posing as a moderate. No one who is rational can not see the extremists for what they are." I see the extremist for who they are. It's obvious. I don't need to point that out every time I see one. It doesn't change a thing. "Socialized medicine is an absolute must as part of what it will take to save the middle class. And you don't even see it." Socialized medicine is just one part of a very big picture. I see it just fine. "That's not "my way or the highway". It's the GLARING REALITY OF TRUTH." The only difference in opinions I see Dusty is that you seem to think socialized medicine is the only solution...and I think it is "part" of the solution. I'm trying to see all the pieces on the chess board and how they interact with each other instead of just one piece. Moving one piece doesn't solve all the problems...there are other things to consider. It's just not that easy.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21696)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

There is a such thing as a strawman "argument ". Sorry about the extra e if that is what your implying.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21695)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Sad it has to be that way. By the way...I noticed your good with statistics. I need some numbers, but first I have to figure out how to break it down into managable brackets. Basically I need to know the total annual cost of entitlements not including social security which shouldn't even be considered such. Some of the problem is going to be finding the right numbers with healthcare and subsidies. I'll get back with you when I can break it down.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21694)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Dusty, I think you war with everyone.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21690)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Dusty, I don't come here to war with anyone. I agree with some of the things the "femi nazi" stated. I agree with some of the things Heat says. I try to look for things I can agree on and less of what I don't. I didn't argue with Minute on everything I didn't like...nor do I argue with Heat on the same. I don't call you out on your opinions...you call me and I defend myself. I agree with you probably more than anyone else...yet because I don't fight with every single member of the forum I'm your enemy. I understand being in the middle will cause me to catch flak from both ends...and frankly I don't care. I'm more interested in the far left and far right than I am in a moderate (like yourself) point of view...because I like to think of potential solutions to issues....and for any solution to ever be reality it has to appease both sides. This is why I like Heat and Minute...because they are far right and far left.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21689)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

Dusty, If you don't like being called on your strawman arguements...quit using them. Debate issues on their own merit. Agree or disagree...and state your position...don't state mine. I've got the time....so let's go line by line again so we can get it perfectly clear. "You might want to take a shot at that education yourself. My education may be dated but it's not worthless and I do know the difference is socialism and a single socialist program." You should by now, and your opinion on an issue is welcome...but not the attitude your point of view is the only right point of view. "The entire world of industrialized nations, conservative or liberal have socialized medicine. It's not a disease that is to be avoided." I haven't avoided it at all. "To claim it is socialism is a straw man argument which brands all of the nation as a socialist nation if a single program is socialized." This is where you are confused....social ized medicine is socialism...that's not a strawman arguement...it's fact. The second part of your statement where if someone declared a single socialized program made an entire nation socialist....would in fact be a strawman arguement. So you are technically correct...but I personally have never called our nation a socialist nation. "We have socialist programs throughout our government. Some work, some don't. All need to be purged of corruption.Just as every conservative program does, as every moderate program does. That's not the issue." I agree 100%. "The issue is that the working class poor of the USA should have access to affordable health care." I agree 100%. But access to affordable care is not in itself socialism...free is. The issue is that healthcare is "not" affordable to the working class poor. Why that is...is a debatable subject. "You really need to stop stealing the Fem Nazi term "straw man" accusation. It's the "insult" of ignorance." You need to understand what a strawman arguement is. It's not a liberal arguement nor a conservative arguement...it's a "type" of arguement. Generally people who use such arguements are ignorant....even though I am not calling you ignorant...except your ignorance of what is a strawman arguement. "And when you have a double masters in both Business Administration and Political Science, however dated it may be, then you lecture me on straw man arguments." Well Dusty...I find it hard to believe that someone who has double masters in Business Administration and Political Science doesn't understand the concept of strawman arguements. Most people learn it in high school....yet you base a lot of what you say on it....and deny it. A verb is a verb...a noun is a noun...a strawman arguement is a strawman arguement...it is what it is. It's not an opinion. "Until then you are just showing your ass." Now that is an opinion....yours.. ..but an opinion nonetheless.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21687)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

I do see the difference...what you fail to see is that both are forms of socialism. What you also fail to understand is the basic forms of debate arguements. Debates are arguements for or against a line of reasoning...not your way or the highway.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21681)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

The one thing I look for in people is not so much their ideology or bias...but whether they are "rigid" in it. Your to the right...and you know you are...yet your not blind. You do have the ability to see both sides. You are open to other points of view...just not rigid points of view. For that reason alone I hope you stick around to give me your points of view on some ideas I will present later. I'm not for or against socialized medicine...I am more concerned with how it is done. We're going to have it....so lets have a good system. I don't want anything that kills the free market ie all rich are evil...nor do I want anything that leads to communism ie the government takes care of all your needs. Either or is not acceptable.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21679)

Oklahoma City, OK

OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

You really should educate yourself Dusty. You have the time...take advantage of it.  (Jun 23, 2012 | post #21674)