Send a Message
to ServantOfWisdom

Comments

325

Joined

Mar 22, 2013

ServantOfWisdom Profile

Recent Posts

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

Did everyone give up?  (Jul 26, 2013 | post #5443)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

The Greek speakers that would have been aware of Jesus' parable would never have thought he was speaking of heaven anyway, because the place of the righteous dead was in the underworld just as the part for the unrighteous were. The divide would have been understood as horizontal, not vertical, because both of them were in the same underworld. Hardly a very good explanation even for those who do not understand what a soul is based on Genesis 2:7. It's a metaphor just like the 7-headed dragon. Some metaphors are literally completely untrue (like Christians being the salt of the earth -- no human is made of salt), others can be partially true (wheat and weeds growing), and some, despite being metaphors, literally happened, like the typology of Solomon and Moses who really existed, but also served as metaphors for Jesus. Note that I'm using a liberal definition of metaphor, akin to the Koine word parabola, to get my point acrossBut, unfortunately for you, the bible doesn't empirically state this. Instead all we know is that the King received a letter from Elijah talking about events that happened after the windstorm event, which means it's logically unlikely that Elijah was already dead (as in his body, if you will) by this point. Nevertheless, you could argue that since the bible doesn't specify, then everything you said could be true. It could also be true that Elijah rode a unicorn across an intra-dimensional plane where he slayed 7 headed dragons as practice. But since the bible doesn't say that, it's an unfounded statement, unprovable, and frankly, unlikelyRefer to comment above about unicorns and dragon-slaying. The bible doesn't say it. The bible doesn't say that Elijah left his body behind in the windstorm event. The bible doesn't show Elisha mourning Elijah. The bible doesn't give any indication that Elijah died in *any* way on that day. So if you want to base a belief in an immortal soul that survives the body's death on your opinion of what happened to Elijah (even though the bible doesn't comment on it, so it's purely your opinion) then feel free to do so. I for one will continue to base my beliefs on what the bible *does say* literally, clearly, in a narrative. Genesis 2:7. Jesus said no man had ascended into heaven before him. So, Enoch and Elijah must not have ascended into heaven, or you are calling Jesus a liar -- not that it would surprise me, since you already have multiple timesWhat is? That Elijah left his body behind? That he had a physical death, as you call it, on that day? Show me where the bible says itExcellent! So why base beliefs on details you think are true, but aren't written?  (Jul 19, 2013 | post #5439)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

Are Christians the light of the world? Are they the salt of the earth? No. Christians are not literally light, and they are not literally salt. So if you want to say that Jesus is a liar for using metaphors, then feel free to do so. The parables served their purpose. The metaphors are a lie if taken literally, but what they teach is not a twisted truth. Hence you see, but cannot make out what it is, and hear but do not understandI use person in order to try and convey/emphasize the idea of body and spirit united, and therefore interchangeable with soul. The point is that you cannot have a soul without a body, and you cannot have a soul without spirit or "breathe ". Such is what Genesis 2:7 says. If I get a pencil and remove the lead, it is now just a piece of wood, and the lead is just a piece of lead (or carbon if you want to be picky). What happened to the pencil? Did it cease to exist? You could say no, because its component parts still exist -- it just changed form. However it is no longer a pencil, so in a literal sense, it's more accurate to say that the pencil ceased to exist once it was broken down into separate components. When the body is destroyed, the soul ceases to exist in a literal sense. Consciousness ends, and the soul is deadPaul does not mention anything other than just the tent when he's talking about the tent, does he? And as I've already explained before, the entire soul is contained within the limits of the body -- since as, Genesis 2:7 points out, there would be nothing that can live out of the body -- but if the body were destroyed, the soul would cease to exist with it. Paul's language doesn't suggest anything against this, and as I've mentioned in the past, Paul showed that he agreed with Genesis 2:7 in his letter to the Romans. His rhetorical speech was hardly meant to be focused on as proof of an immortal soul, but rather as a testament of how much he looked forward to his heavenly hopePerhaps Enoch was in danger and God did not want him to suffer. The exact full reason is not mentioned, is it? So why make assumptions?  (Jul 19, 2013 | post #5438)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

I'm sorry, I don't recall the GB, as you call them, saying this anywhere. Would you like to substantiate your opinion? People die because of sin. Jesus said they would be resurrected for judgment -- a judgment based on their deeds after resurrection, so, I see it as a second chance. If you don't like what John 5:28, 29 says, then take it up with the Bible.  (Jul 19, 2013 | post #5437)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

If you think it is a twisted truth that wasn't related to the truth of God, then feel free to think that -- pharisees thought it as well. As I've said before, that was the point: 'They would see, but not make out what it was, they would hear, but not understand'. This is why Jesus spoke in parables. I can't help but wonder how many people think that 7 headed dragons exist because of the revelations Jesus gave to John in -- you guessed it -- a huge 'parable'. (Since you clearly forgot when I explained all this 2 times before, let me add a note that the word parable here is not a reference to the English word parable as defined in the dictionary, but to the Koine word Parabola which has a much wider meaningKing Jehoram received the letter which contained information that happened after the windstorm event. Logically, if Elijah would have written the letter before the windstorm event, he wouldn't have been able to put all the details about Jehoram's immorality that he put into it. Furthermore, seeing as Elisha didn't mourn his master when the windstorm event happened, it's pretty obvious Elisha was aware that Elijah was not dying or forever going away to heaven at this point in time; rather, he was simply going elsewhere. Nevertheless, maybe everything is a conspiracy to make it seem like Elijah never died even though he did, and maybe the information in the letter was prophetic and predestined Jehoram to act in the way that he did. That wouldn't be a very logical conclusion, but since the bible doesn't specifically state every little detail about Elijah, an unreasonable person could argue that. However, where do you read that he was dead when that letter was sent? No verse ever suggests that Elijah died or 'left behind his body' in the windstorm, because he didn'tCould have? A lot of things could have happened. Peter could have been a metaphor in the bible. You can argue anything "could" happen. That doesn't make it reasonableHe's dead now, so I can't ask him, and the bible doesn't say. But if you want to get a demon's take on it, why don't you go to Endor and ask a spirit mediumWhy is there no mention of the dispute over Moses' body in the Hebrew scriptures even though it's a story that Jude knew about? Who knows? How is that relevant? How is that an argument against what I'm saying? Was Jehovah supposed to include a play-by-play biography of all the prophets for you to be satisfiedDoes the bible have to say that he died? The bible doesn't say when Isaiah died eitherFunny considering how you partially base your beliefs on the fact that you think Enoch and Elijah went to heaven -- *something that the bible doesn't say ANYWHERE*. Literal narrative parts disagree with you; you fill in gaps with your unbiblical beliefs; you take parables literally. How am I the wrong one here?  (Jul 18, 2013 | post #5433)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

It's simple really. My first question is normally: Is this a narrative, or is it a parable/metaphor? Since Genesis 2:7 is narrative, it's intended to be understood literally. Paul's metaphor of tents and clothing is, well, metaphorical, so it's not meant to be interpreted literally. I interpret it based on what is known to be literally true. You interpret it based on a pagan belief that began with Satan when he promised Eve that she would not die, but instead live on to become like God. There is no literal, narrative, part of the bible that supports the belief of an eternal soul, and any Jewish scholar, like my secular teacher, will tell you that the bible is not the origin of the belief in an immortal soul. You take all of your ideas from metaphorical parts of the bible which can be interpreted to mean literally anything if you are willing to go that far. So if you do not want to accept the literal biblical definition of soul as the true definition of soul as explained in Genesis 2:7 and corroborated in other narrative parts of the bible, then by all means, accept pagan mythology insteadThe part about something living in the tent -- you made that up. There isn't a verse where Paul states that. This is your personal interpretation of his metaphor, and is therefore no more or less valid than any other random interpretation one could come up with. As mentioned previously, because of Genesis 2:7, I don't read into this metaphor more than necessary, and therefore see the tent as the soul, not just a part of the soulI'm giving you an educated guess. As I've said before, the bible doesn't say where he was translated to, nor does it explain to what extent not seeing death was a metaphor or not -- but since no one can actually *see* death, it's fairly logical to conclude that it was simply a metaphor for being conscious that one is dying or about to die. You are making claims about things the bible does not explain -- I am withholding my judgment. I don't know exactly why God translated him, or what that entails, or anything else about it, because the God didn't find it necessary for me or you to know, because it's not in the bible. So I will not add to the words, like those who think he went to heaven do, nor take away by saying he is still alive (instead of accepting that he died at ~360 years of age). So if you want to base your beliefs on what *you* think happened to Enoch, then feel free to do so. I, for one, will base my beliefs on the bible -- and the bible doesn't specify all the details of Enoch's end. So I go by what the bible does say: The soul can be hit with a sword, it has blood, and it is the person, and when it dies, it ceases to be conscious if it was conscious.  (Jul 18, 2013 | post #5432)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

John 5:28, 29 - "Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come out   those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment." (HCSB) For a resurrection of judgment.  (Jul 18, 2013 | post #5431)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

None of the verses you have shown say anywhere that there is an immortal soul that lives on after death, because literal death is death. It is final. It is the opposite of literal life. If you are truly dead, you cannot be alive in any literal sense. None of the bible verses you have quoted go against this, and the majority of the verses you quoted are metaphorical. Genesis 2:7 is part of biblical narrative, and is therefore, beyond a reasonable doubt (because you can unreasonably doubt anything) a literal definition of soul for the bible. Nowhere does the bible state that this literal definition is only one of two. Once again: A soul can be hit with a sword. (Joshua 11:11, a narrative passage) A soul has blood. (Genesis 9:5, narrative) A soul can be carried -- and 8 of them were carried by a ship. (1 Peter 3:20) Biblical narrative is clear that the soul is a person, and nothing more. Not something that survives death. If you want to twist biblical metaphors to believe in a soul, or in reincarnation, or really any other eisegetical beliefs, feel free to do so. Nevertheless, what the bible "actually " teaches beyond a resonable doubt is that the soul is made up of the body and the spirit, and when a person dies, their soul is what is dying, and obviously, along with it, their consciousness. (Psalms 146YOU do not know what YOUR life will be tomorrow. For YOU are a mist appearing for a little while and then disappearing. " (James 4:14) "Dust you are and to dust you will return."  (Jul 15, 2013 | post #5426)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

You mean a metaphorical sense of life and death? What about it? People who were physically alive were said to be spiritually dead, which means that if the spiritual part of them was a soul that lived on, that the body would have to die by extension, or cease to have consciousnessDid you miss the last time I explained this? When Paul said that he "would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord", he did not equate the two as you have in your paraphrasing. Indeed, to be out of a physical earthly body alone would mean only death. He needs to be clothed in what is immortal -- in this case, a new spiritual body -- to be alive. If the tent is destroyed, then there is no home. It is not until the building is given, that there is a home once again. The state of being clothed is equated to being alive and existing, but with this he does not ever imply that there is consciousness when the clothing is removed. Hence why he doesn't want to remain nude in death, but be clothed once again, made conscious once again, in heaven. It is more akin to a clothing dummy in a store which is inactive when undressed, but which, upon having clothing put upon it, begins working as intended. Without the clothing, it is "nothing ". If the bible defined soul the way you define it, then I'd agree with you. But it defines the soul as the person (Genesis 2:7) and never states in a literal passage that the soul survives death. Even the Hebrew word for soul, Nephesh, implies that there is no compound -- the body is a critical part of it, and therefore they cannot be permanently separated without loss of lifeNever literally. Being alive "to God" was used in reference to the resurrection, a belief which does not require the existence of an immortal soul and functions equally well within it's metaphorical context when you accept Genesis 2:7 as trueWrong. The answer is: You don't have the slightest clue. Neither do I. The bible doesn't say where he was transfered, but it leaves clear that no man has ever gone to heaven before Jesus. Not seeing death doesn't mean a person didn't die. You can be killed without ever "seeing it coming", as they say. Nevertheless, I will not claim I know exactly what happened to Enoch. Truth is, none of us doLiterally, dead. Metaphorically aliveWhen Jesus appeared in a vision to Paul or Stephen before him, were they talking to thin air? Or just pretending Jesus was there? It's a vision. Is that too hard to computeAll the kingdoms and their glory. I guess since the bible doesn't specify, you can feel free to imagine Satan just showed Jesus a map and a slide-show from his demonic Ipad. Nevertheless, given the circumstances, a vision seems more reasonable. [Continued...]  (Jul 15, 2013 | post #5425)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

Faith is not the possession of all people, and clearly, neither is reason. My statement of souls being conscious and/or unconscious was under the assumption that those who would read my reply would be capable of inferring I was speaking about humans. I was sadly mistaken. Since they cannot even correctly infer meaning in a simple discussion, how could they understand the scriptures? Woe to these who are blind among you, who cannot understand that a dead soul can be "alive to Jehovah", and yet still physically dead. Indeed, Jesus was completely dead despite being sinless, but like Moses and Abraham, and David who was considered righteous and without fault, Jesus was still "alive to Jehovah" and yet completely dead. The foolish among you also cannot understand the rhetorical speech in the bible. Indeed, they believe that I am taking psalms literally because after a person dies they cease consciousness. How pathetic and unreasonable. Thoughts cannot physically perish, so I understand that to be rhetorical and take it with a grain of salt, just as I take not believing in son of man with a grain of salt for the same reason -- Ergo, I believe in Jesus. However, the application of this verse is clear: Man cannot be trusted because his consciousness ceases, which is what is meant by thoughts perishing. See, claiming that I was taking it literally, would be wrong, because clearly it's possible to be alive in a comatose state -- and yet that could still be referred to as having thoughts perish! But by understanding to what extent it is rhetorical; therein lies the key. How can one expect the blind to understand this? Those who likely lost their spiritual sight by adultery or pride? Furthermore, such a blind person clearly does not understand what a Chapter 7 Liquidation Bankruptcy does to, for example, an artificial person, like a corporation. The company ceases to exist, and the debts incurred die with it. That is what death is like. Such a blind person lacks the ability to prove their point with bible verses, because the bible does not state anywhere that anything other than death is "the wages of sin", something which it leaves quite clear more than once in regards to death. I find it funny when people say: "Jehovah's Witnesses teach this and that." The bible teaches that the wages of sin is death, not us. That is exactly what we believe. And we do not add to that, nor take away.  (Jul 11, 2013 | post #5421)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

Great, so exactly what I said: "When his spirit departs, he returns to earth, and on that day his *thoughts perish*. He ceases consciousness. Man is a soul (genesis 2:7), and when he dies, his thoughts perish." No more plans, no more consciousnessGreat ! And since the bible doesn't empirically show anywhere that humans have any part that exists outside of earth, we can conclude that the person is no longer part of any affairs what-so-ever, lest they be remadeI don't see relevance between trinitarians and my response, so I'm going to move onDid you already forget that Elijah was still alive a few years later and wrote a letter to the king? He was not taken up to the sky where he apparently flew to some other location on earth, not to the *actual* heavenAnd Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world from a mountain. So if we are going to start talking about how impossible things happen in visions, you have another thing coming. Apostles seeing Moses and Elijah with Jesus doesn't prove they are conscious anymore than Satan tempting Jesus proves that their's a mountain that can see all the kingdoms of the entire earthReady to have your mind blown? A vision. Isn't that crazy? That the holy spirit could give people a vision? Who knewYou spoke about the beliefs of trinitarians, didn't really address the points, and your strongest argument is a vision of the transfiguration. Anyone convinced by such weak arguments was not someone I was interested in convincing anyway.  (Jul 11, 2013 | post #5420)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

I think it's funny when people incapable of understanding verses that are clearly presented conclude that it is "my" teaching. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." It is also translated: "But the product of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life in our Lord Yeshua The Messiah." For those not bright enough to understand what it means in the first place. Sin results in death. That's it. Genesis 2:7 shows that man is a soul, and therefore, when the soul dies due to sin, it's dead. (You'd think this was obvious, but it seems some people here do not comprehend the concept of a tautology.) It is unconscious, because that's what the opposite of alive would entail. The gift of Jehovah is life, but the product of sin is death. To claim that wicked souls survive death would mean that Jehovah gave the gift of life to the wicked -- that's ridiculous. I suppose it's to be expected... "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." A particularly blind one among you, clearly demonstrating incompetence, claimed that the context of psalms 146:4 somehow discredits it, yet ignored when I pointed out this lie. Look for yourselves at the context he says discredits it: "Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help. His spirit (or breath) departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." This is a fairly exact translation, and if you will not take my word, check any interlinear on-line, like scripture4all or others. How does this verse being about not putting trust in princes affect how I was quoting it? Does it not state that the reason we should not trust them is because they are a son of man in whom there is no help? And why are they so useless? Because when his spirit departs, he returns to earth, and on that day his *thoughts perish*. He ceases consciousness. Man is a soul (genesis 2:7), and when he dies, his thoughts perish. What is his argument now? That Psalms should not be accepted because it is poetry? And Ecclesiastes because it is the work of man, and not the word of God? From whom did Solomon receive his wisdom? Was it not from God? Why does one accept only the parts they like from this book that contains divine wisdom and yet reject others? It contains views that express the futility of life from the perspective of man, but that doesn't make such futility untrue within the context. What of Joshua where it says that a soul can be struck down with a sword? Will this one write that off as well? And even if they wanted to take the entire bible as a metaphor -- then that would make my arguments stronger 3-fold -- for why do you see parts you disagree with as metaphorical, and yet accept as literal every word of Jesus who "did not teach without a parable"? Indeed, if you believe an immortal soul exists because of a parable of Jesus, then you have received what is fitting for the undeserving. To see but be incapable to make out meaning, and hear, but fail to understand. In such a case, the parable has worked exactly how it was supposed to. "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." I have no interest in the blasphemous ways in which some of you walk. I wait to see if LA has an earnest desire to find truth, or if they are also just here for discord.  (Jul 3, 2013 | post #5410)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

The bible doesn't talk about a resurrection of animals. God chooses which souls to resurrect, and the bible doesn't state anywhere that this applies to animals. After all, as I had already said, it's possible animals died before the fall. I can see why you think they generally didn't if you think earth was created in six literal days, but I digress. If you think God is unfair, then that is for you to decide for yourself. However, the bible is clear in saying that animals are a soul just as it says that man is a soulAssuming that if animals were resurrected, they wouldn't eat the flesh of dead zebras. But again, that's not what I'm focused on at all, so moving onThe WT doesn't have any personal teachings; all teachings are derived from the bible. A soul that sins will die. God can still resurrect a dead (and therefore unconscious) soul and in that way return it to life. Where is the contradiction? The GB does not and cannot change biblical teachings -- the teaching you are making reference to is deduced from John 5:28 and 29. GB members or really anyone who tries to change the biblical truth is removed -- as has happened in the past and as happened to AuldPaul explains it himself when he later states that "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." When a soul dies, it has paid off its sins through death. There are exceptions as the bible points out, but that is not particularly relevant -- once a soul dies, Jehovah can choose to give it a second opportunity in a resurrection for judgment as Jesus had said if he feels that is fair. I still don't see how there is any contradiction with any of this? A soul can die, and be brought back to life without having to be conscious or alive in any way shape or form in between those two events. Indeed, it can happen as fast as a "blink of an eye" or it can be a long time before a person is resurrected. Jehovah can choose not to resurrect someone at all, or even to give a second chance to an ignorant but wicked person, like those from Nineveh. In the end, the entire bible makes perfect sense if you see man as "a living soul", and not as having one. So adding additional meanings to soul or beliefs centered around it seems superfluous -- specially when you consider that every pagan religion had such beliefs, and it was Satan's first lie -- that man wouldn't die, but instead become like God. Metaphors that pagan dominated churches like the Catholics try to interpret as proving an immortal soul exists are just as easy, if not easier, to interpret in light of Genesis 2:7. Plus you avoid contradictions with Ecclesiastes and Psalms and passages in Genesis and Joshua, etc.  (Jul 2, 2013 | post #5404)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

When someone makes a compound statement, if any part of it is false, the entire statement can be called a lie. Just because someone can prove one part of it does not verify the rest. The first part of it was true. The second part of it was not. One can't help but wonder what it might have been! Sexual immorality? That's a common one. Or maybe it was materialism. Or their pride was hurt. Had some discussion, was provably wrong, but just couldn't get over it -- because how could *they* be wrong? They can't ever be wrong! But their pride betrays them. How pitiful. I live in Florida. I'm probably still talking and seeing people from that congregation all the time. So sad to think that spiritual weakness overcame one of them. Yet, the rest move on, and we can talk freely with each other. I hear the drama is great this year. Oh well, once the heart is hardened even the little that a person had is stripped from them. They forget that they will never be able to preach the good news to the whole world, or find a global yet politically neutral biblical organization. How is one person alone going to meet in order to incite and be incited to good works? So much frustration -- no wonder they cannot help but to engage in childish name-calling and disrespectful/sham eful behavior.  (Jul 2, 2013 | post #5403)

Jehovah's Witness

MAD Challenge!

not showing*  (Jul 1, 2013 | post #5400)

Q & A with ServantOfWisdom

Read This Book:

Bible

I Believe In:

Truth