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Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

it took me a while tofind these old posts lol 1. theres a difference between posting the way something is, and the morality of said thing. i post what the bible ays within the historical context. but mind you, the entire discussion is taking place within the context of my moral beliefs and worldview. so if there are things that are really wrong, i say that the foundation of it must be transendant. but back to my point, i dont reject the bible because i view it as a whole, weighing in on things that i dont like by examining the entire book and the point of it all. whats funny is that the bible is a book that is mostly focused on redemption and morality on the foundation. i have no problem understanding that the culture then and the culture now are different. i also know why we as a people have progressed to hold this view within our culture. so in reality, im ok with the idea that it happened and why, but i wouldnt impose that on people now in the least. there is no situation in which i would force anyone into lifelong slavery, but mind you, there is no real thing as lifelong slavery if you take into account the year of jubilee and the various other verses that talk about freedom. the servant can choose to stay if he wants. see theres a difference between what God allows within the context of the bible, and the way he wants things to be. looking at the year of jubilee, it seems pretty clear to me that this is something that he wants. he wantspeople free. he even encourages people to give liberally of what they have to the person who goes free. when i discuss your worldview, even as a secular humanist, your going to believe certain things about the nature of morality. im not talking about things you detet. im taking about things that are really wrong or really right at the foundation. for example, regardless of whatever view you hold, your morality will fall into two views: objective, or subjective. the origin of those morals has much to do with whether it is subjective or objective. so in reality, as an atheist, your view will be subjective because given atheism, morals are social constructs developed by humans. so to say that it is wrong to enslave others is something only an objective view can say. im not assuming that your views are like that, im logically assessiong what you believe and looking at it foundation. to sy that anything that your saying is valid, you must first make a foundational claim on the nature of morals.  (Jun 5, 2013 | post #167002)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

first i mut apologize for the lateness of my reply. work caught up to me, and as much fun as it is to talk about these things, i have priorities to attend to. so im going to condese everything from the past posts as best as i can. slavery is wrong, true. i have a big issue with slavery from the west and all over the world in any time period. and yes, it is difficult to see why some biblical passages are the way they are, no doubt. my conclusion is that the culture of the time had it as a benefit to the people, it was a way of life which in our culture we dont approve of. but im pretty sure that unless you appeal to my word view, you wont be able to defend the idea that slavery is evil without emotivism. now as a discussion of what the bible says about slavery, i have made several arguments that lay a foundation for viewing the bible, but not as to defend the practice. personal dislikes of the bibles views have no foundation unless we develop a foundation for viewing them, both historically and morally. quite honesly, all i consistently see is disagreement about things which require more study, one thing which very few who have replied to me want to do. but further, i thing that to avoid the trouble of doing the whole "im right/no im right" thing, im going to bring it back to the foundation.  (Jun 5, 2013 | post #166999)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

sn assertain the truth of statements regarding what is, but it cant tell you what ought to be. for example, any evolutionary model that states that we hold certain beliefs because we evolved them wont be able to tell you that it is right or not. im going to give you an example between what is logiccal for science to claim 1. any dog in existance is a decendant of the wolf 2. a beagle is a dog 3. therefor a beagle is a decendant of the wolf that can be said using science. now lets try a moral truth. 1. i hit someone with a brick 2. hitting someone with a brick hurts 3. therefor hitting someone with a brick is wrong. well as you can see, theres nothing that directly links the statement of what i did,(the is statement) to what i ought not have done (the moral statement. now when it comes to evolution, it can tell you what habits people evolved, and even why they evolved them, but it says nothing about the rightness of it. if we happened to evolve features like a lion pride in out culture, well thaen the actions we take are just as guided by the evolutionary forces that influenced any other culture.and i hapen to like that quote. lol  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166632)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

i need only simple poins. 1. if ive contradicted myself, make the contradiction aparrent and ill clarify. 2. Deuteronomy 24:7 If a man is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently, or sells him, then that thief shall die; so you shall purge the evil from among you. 3. they had less protection under the law, but that does not mean they had no rights. they could buy their freedom, become even wealthier than their owner, and the bible even commands israel to harbor runaway slaves from other nations! so no rights, thats not accurate. so theres no contradiction here. the old testament requres that the servant live like an israelite, and as such, hes granted those rights to a strong degree. 4. how do you get from what i said that children were slaves? 5. just because jesus doesnt speak directly to a matter does not mean that it isnt important. jesus had a goal of changing people from the inside ou, so that they would live according to the principles he wanted. and historically, christianity wasa strong force for the freedom of slaves. now the verses in the new testament require equality within a culture that wasnt friendly to that equality. so the comand were to hold people accountable in a culture that wouldnt let them free slaves. 6.onesemus could have chosen to run more, no one forced him. but looking carefully at the book, it doesnt speak using any kind of terms of running away, but terms of disagreement and of acceptance. can you blame paul for wanting to do things the right way and help him gain real freedom? your point doesnt take into account what the book even says.paul asked for him to be freed and treated as an equal to philemon. so there was no asking him to return as a slave. 7. theres a difference between stating how things are, and stating that something is wrong. so for example, i can make claims about how things are in my world view. i can also state how things ought to be, within my world view. your world view may allow you to say what is. but it cant allow you to make moral claims against another culture. so the truth of the matter is your points need to justify what ought to be done, and then it can make claims against what is.  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166630)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

if i missed any of your other points i apologize. im pretty sure i got them all, but i could be wrong. second, the idea that there is no protection for slaves of other races is wrong. theres several verses that claim that the foregner is to be loved and treated as one of there own (leviticus 19:33-34). he also goes free on the year of jubilee, and he can purchase his freedom and live in isael no different than the others. and i only needed one verse per point to prove your claims were inaccurate, but i wanted to show that everyone, not just a slave could get beat for doing wrong, so i had more for that point. but i want to raise a point here. we cross back and forth between a few things, and so i want to show something. 1. the idea that slavery is wrong presupposes my world view on morality. i believe that there is such a thing as objective right and wrong, and so i can make value judgements that are valid. the atheist world view doesnt support moral objectivit, and therefor cant make meaningful or authoritative value judgements. 2. cultural ideas about morality need to be taken into context, and often times we confuse similar looking ideas and our feelings about it to lead us to jump to conclusions about the nature of whats going on. 3. our discussion about the wrongness of slavery has been crossing the is ought line very often, and that must be addressed. one thing is to say what is happening in the old testament, and another is to say that it ought not happen. my world view can support the ought statement, but yours cant. it can merely say that our culture doesnt do it, but it really cant say that its wrong.  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166622)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

i wan you to look at this carefully. the society that still does this practice is wrong, of course, but science cant tell us that its wrong. science may tell us that this society is not as advanced as us, but those are the morals they evolved. for you to say that they arent morally as advanced requires guidelines by which to judge moral improvement. second, evolution cant get you to a more moral society. you can only say that a society is changed, but that doesnt mean that it is better. you can only say that if youve already made all the necessary value judgements to come to the conclusionsuperstition doesnt have to do with religion as much as it has to do with lack of knowledge. any person can be superstitious. but superstition has nothing to do with morality. no one gets hurt by someone having a rabbits foot. (except the rabbit f course lol). but more to the point, evolution is unguided, and therefor it can develop in any number of ways. a culture that develops to be more like a group of bees or a pride of lions is under no obligation to up and switch their morality.  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166620)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

im putting it from a biblical world view what the bible claims, given the idea that our morals had to arise from somewhere. its not ment to claim anything beyond the biblical perspectivebecause a society may agree on certain moral principles does not negate the existance of moral absolutes. but more to the point, if the society in question decides to act in a way that is inacceptable to another, there is no standard by which to judge one society over another. when the nazis were put on trial, the way they defended themselves was that they were only doing things within the culture they had. the only way the judge could condemn them was by stating that there is a law above the laws of man, which makes us all acountable. its a good read, id encourage you to find the transcript of it somewhere online. but bac to my point, if culture decides its own morals, its really not a matter of right or wrong, but preference of living. one culture could say that eating children is ok as long as the child is not wanted, and there would be know logical way to tell them they were wrong. its all subjectivehow does science tell you whatis right and wrong? science might tell you that you wont gain strength from them, but it can tell you that its wrong. it an just tell you that the original reason you were eating people was misguided. but looking at your statement, i want you to see something. when you make this statement, you switched from an "ought" statement to an i"s" statement. the idea that eating people will not give us strength is an "is" statement that science can give us, but it doesnt tell us that its wrong in the moral sense.  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166619)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

the verse never negates any of the other verses, nor does it secify any type of permenancy to their stay. second, the verse never negates any of the other solutions. third, the wife was a servant, and she then got married, so she still has a duty to fulfill her seven years. she could still be freed by themaster, have her debt paid for, or just wait out the rest of the seven years. so theres no real issue here with the original statement. im sorry though that i assumed you confused the verses. i thought you were refering to the year of jubilee, so i do apologize for the misunderstanding.  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166616)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

lol i wish i would had seen your reply first, it would hve saved me a lot of time finding the verses.  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166613)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

what verse are you claiming to support that? the bible clearly states that selling your fellow hebrew in the way that you would sell items was a crimefalse. they had rights, and the old testament often has verses to not despise the foreinger, because they were foreigners toomanipulated by him leaving his wife and kid behind? not so for several reasons. one, the verse in question deals only with someone who was married as a slave, and one partners term was up and the other not. theres no indication that there were not other solutions, or that the master could not just up and choose to free them if the person that was freed had enough means to care for them by himselfthere was much that jesus didnt directly talk about. remember that his goal was redemption for all. so we cant argue from what he didnt sayharboring a run away slave was punishable by death for both the harborer and the slave. second, theres no in text indication that onesimus was a runaway, but merely a christian who needed help with a disputeyou need to read more on this, your facts are off.  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166611)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Deuteronomy 24:7 If a man is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently, or sells him, then that thief shall die; so you shall purge the evil from among you. the person had to get into debt, or choose to work for someone so that they could be sustained. it was a form of social relief that benefited the servant, not the master. Leviticus 25:35-37 Now in case a countryman of yours becomes poor and his means with regard to you falter, then you are to sustain him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. Do not take usurious interest from him, but revere your God, that your countryman may live with you. You shall not give him your silver at interest, nor your food for gaintrue. your point is valid. punishment back then was corporial for ALL peoplefalse. ALL people could be beaten, not just slaves. and the punishment could not do serious harm intentionally. second, they were commanded to treat their workers fairly Leviticus 25:43 You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God Leviticus 25:53 Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight. and again, all people were punished like this. Exodus 21:20 And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. Deuteronomy 25:1-3 If there is a dispute between men and they go to court, and the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked, then it shall be if the wicked man (a non-slave) deserves to be beaten, the judge shall then make him lie down and be beaten in his presence with the number of stripes according to his guilt. Proverbs 10:13 On the lips of the discerning, wisdom is found, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks understanding Proverbs 26:3 A whip is for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools  (Jun 2, 2013 | post #166610)

Atheism

Is the bible a fairy tale?

wrong. personal ideas about how god should do something is not a defense for you saying hes nonexistant. again, its an idea that claims too much more than it can defend logically. but more to the point, why should he?  (Jun 1, 2013 | post #2024)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

your actually mixing up two seperate verses lol. one talks about them all going free, the otherone simply talks about the husband gong free from his contracted time, and the wife still needing to finish her time in the service she owes. the kid stays with the mother. the seven year rule affects all people in the land of israel, male and female, old or young, hebrew or foreigner.  (Jun 1, 2013 | post #166413)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

3 points before i go to work. 1. i agree slavery in the modern sense is wrong. but the problem is im not taking my cultural view on slavery to press it on the bible. often times i believe people see the word slavery and instantly think westetn slavery. the truth is the biblical accounts and the historical accounts better match up to the description of an indentured servant. but more to the point, because he bible has verses on slavery, it isnt commanding it, it is regulating it. its within the fraamework of the peoples wa of doing thngs tht involves more than just freedom. it involves money, land, food. there more to the dynamic of letting a persongo inthe ancient times. there was no fallbackfor these people, they needed crops, herds, materials, etc. so i think when people raise the complaint about ancient slavery, they think its the same and i think its a complaint thats unfounded. the bible is clear, seven yearof work nd the slave is to go free.v is clear. so its not an immedate release,but its still commanded that they go free. you dont see the command, thou shalt buy slave. you do see the command, set them free. second, we do see the wrongness. we see that its wrong to own another persons body, mind and soul for all his life like cattle, misstreating him as you please. it is terribly wrong. so dont misunderstnd me as defending slavery in all forms or even in the way that it was. i just find it terrible as well that people would lookat these verses and instantly compare culture to culture, often times without taking the time todo the investigation. neither do i think people see the difference between god tolerating a behavior and him approving the behavior. but back to my point, God is under no obligation to make everyone like everything in the bible. but looking at the trend in the bible, we see a progression of changing the culture. do you know of any other culture that would release all there slaves after seven years of work? and they dont leave empty handed, hey could have a family, possesions of their own, maybe even herds. heck, a servant could end up more wealthy than his master lol. now as far as how the people use the bible, no matter how well intetioned any book can be, it can be used to justify any number of things. zGod isnt morally responsible for how people misuse his wordvto hurt others, hes only responsible for the originalintent of the book.so how people use it is on them. ill get into the cultural thing at another time, im late lol.  (Jun 1, 2013 | post #166412)

Atheism

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

lol im not defending slavery, im ning the culture and the way things are. its not an argument for or against God. its just a fun discussion to have that can lead to more fruitful discussions.  (May 31, 2013 | post #166398)