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HipGnosis
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I figured I'd catch ya thru the nite. Thanks again for the pleasant exchange. I hope you have a good day today. I was tickled by your last line there, and I'd just say, Ain't we all, brother, ain't we all......>grins < As I look around I see we did get a little rowdy in here last night. I think everybody had some fun, or at least got a bit of what they were looking for. I'm just glad the rest of the house didn't get woke up by the noise. Epi will be along shortly to clear this mess away and open the window to a brand new beautiful day. She's a dandy, don't you think? Bless her heart. Be Well, Ham HipGnosis (2 hrs ago | post #142169)
At risk of tainting you with the odor of an apostate I say Thank You! It ain't about WHAT he's writing. Why do they have to pretend that anyone has told him to stop saying WHAT he's saying? It's about treating the others as equals. topix with it's lax moderation, is the most egalitaran format I've ever seen. No one can win an argument by yelling louder, or strutting and puffing. Effective intimidation is virtually eliminated, except for the weak-kneed few who start at the stirring of a mouse. Here there ain't no kings and there ain't no peasants. You live or die on how you represent as a person. What he's doing is set up a box in the center of the room and condescending to talk down to all the little people. The topix format won't allow it - this is a discussion forum, not a blog. ANYONE that gets up on a soapbox is jeered down by one side or the other. It's about interaction- people want to engage - they don't want to be lectured and preached at ad nauseum. We've got daily life preaching at us - TV, radio, workplace, home for some unfortunate few, where the speaker doesn't give a darn about you or your personal view. Tell the truth - I think they're just itching to fuss, 'cos it looks to me like Dary/Gave is digging the attention, and in fact is receiving the exact tenor of reaction he appears to have been aiming for. Where's the foul? Scene from "The Wild Ones" (free-form): Anytopix Poster: What do you have a problem with today, Johnny? JohnnyCorn: Whaddyagot? (6 hrs ago | post #142145)
You ain't kidding. The Double-Face he's bringing for this scene is inspired. Comic genius. Then the a shocking twist! In bold-faced defiance, he declares that his moral high ground is the fact that he QUIT! Ya gotta hand it to him - the boy's got some big brass ones....! Great show. 3 year run and still packin' 'em in. Peace backatcha. H (7 hrs ago | post #142137)
Why would they suspect that? It's well known that Cranks need no communication - the lowest common denominator is easy for anybody to hit. Funny that you would think that you're getting a shot in by bragging about your part in previous dissension. Here's a bet for ya - I bet you can't name three points that Gary/Dave has advanced with all that spam you say is so great. I wonder if you even know what day the worlds going to end, according to Gary/Dave? I bet dollars to donuts you're just being contrary because that's just what comes naturally to ya. How'm I doin'? Peas. (7 hrs ago | post #142121)
Well of course who would chime in when there's trouble abrew but five-time banned Coffey-Stain? Why do people get banned, Johnny, you being the undisputed expert and all? For spreading the love of Jesus, right? Tell me, JohnnyCakes, what is more detrimental to the well-being of the body of believers - questions from without, or discord from within? Tell me, CoffeyCrumb, who is documented in this very Golden thread as calling fellow Christians liars, witches, cookoo, and other enlightened terms of endearment? I suppose you tell each other that when you get to the real Golden Room, God will say, "That's ok, that you spread discord and dissension over minor points of "doctrine " amongst my children. I don't mind that you called my children vile and vicious names. You said you love me, and that's all I care about. You may go." Johnny is just about to turn the corner, free and clear, when he hears a roar from behind him, "He said WHAT?!!? He never has and never will worship Jesus? COME BACK HERE BOY!" (8 hrs ago | post #142117)
Cont. to Ham: But, no matter, this is the way it is, we are told. This is the one universal and absolute message to mankind, and we can either accept it or reject it. But the authors don't just leave it at that - they say, "...and here are our proofs." They are the ones that appeal to the temporal, the corporeal, the concrete actions and events, as described in the Bible, as Proof of their veracity and authority. Thus they willingly invite inspection, and inspection of temporal proofs is inseparable from intellectualizing. "Is this convincing?", we must ask, precisely >because< we consider it to be an eternally important decision. In the past, I have gone into detail of why these proofs were found wanting, for me. I'm certainly willing to share and discuss these again, but those days of advancing my arguments unbidden are behind me - they are not fruitful, and often as not turn off more than they engage, if the other is not a willing participant. In this room at least, I'll not offend the sensibilities of the inhabitants merely to "make my argument" - unless requested, of course. But the long and short is, the Biblical authors founded their faith definition on these proofs, not me. It is entirely possible to maintain spirituality without precise definition, and this I shall continue to do, but I cannot in intellectual honesty affirm that which my God-given reason and research shows to have a shaky foundation. God knows my heart, and God knows that he can strike me with a bolt, or nudge me with a book or sermon, anytime he pleases, and I am a ready and willing receptor. I have to believe this is precisely what he's done. Thanks again for your measured presence, and your patience with a damned old apostate. Your general peace, I think, is a great example of the value of spirituality focused through the Christ. I would see no one take that from you. We all must dance to the tune playing in each our heads, and I have been privileged to watch your dance develop over the last couple years. I may be wrong in my thinking - it is highly likely, in the realm of chance and possibilities, but I am completely at ease with the path I've been shown, and look forward as much as anyone here to "see what's what" when my time comes. I'll feel no shame nor fear whatsoever when I get to the witness stand, as I trust you won't either. If I'm wrong, I hope he'll at least say, "...but yeah, I did let them get carried away with those proofs." If Pappy loves us at all, he loves us all, and he loves all of us, just as I am, without one plea. Peace to you, and a pet to Boo. HipG (8 hrs ago | post #142107)
Cont. to Ham: I believe spirituality is inherent in all peoples. Even noted atheist Sam Harris acknowledges the validity and importance of spirituality. Faith is merely a human attempt to define that spirituality - to give the indefinable a form, substance, and meaning. All societies apply their definition to spirituality, using the filters of each culture's unique history and language. Faith is constantly evolving, which results in such examples as Judaism leading in one culture to Christianity, and in another to Islam. It is purely a human predilection for righteous certitude that manifests these "evolutions " in hatred and warfare. But spirituality is inherently and intensely personal. No one can steal it or assault it or even question it, while held internally. It is the professed definition - the "faith" - that defines that spirituality for the individual, that is in question. I believe Paul's arguments were not simply that reason undermines faith, but an honest realization on his part that reason could possibly undermine >orthodox Christian faith<. I believe this is precisely why he cautions believers to reject reason - reason that, to my mind, has to arise from a transcendentally rational God. This is precisely why Paul warns to stay away from "genealogies " and other such minutiae. I suspect he has heard the conflicting genealogies in Luke and Matthew (not yet published as he was writing) and realizes the pitfalls therein. Which brings me to an intellectual understanding of orthodox Christianity. I think it important to note that >I< - HipGnosis - did not tie Christian faith to Biblical proofs - the Biblical authors did. Thus they were the ones that invited scrutiny of such temporal proofs. They were the ones that said, in effect, " Here's the definition of faith, and here are our proofs." I've said before - there is no reason whatsoever to be hostile to the figure of Jesus of Galilee. It is a wonderful and simple message in and of itself. I do not see him as the Sunday school milquetoast figure - I see him as a radical and a revolutionary (in context) and I naturally gravitate to such rabble-rousers. Jesus was the archetypal freethinker, in his place in time. It is the exclusivity of it that originally raised my suspicion. I cannot understand why God would say that, in effect, the most important thing he wants us to know, and the single factor that includes or excludes, is this Christ story - not morality, not ethical living, not compassion, not justice - but profession in Christ's sacrifice. All the other stuff is >desired< but not wholly necessary for entrance through the Pearly Gates. I don't see how this serves the lot of mankind one bit - it hopes to, sure, but it is not necessary. This does not make sense to me. (8 hrs ago | post #142106)
Well stated Ham, and thank you for the response. You very well may be right. Of course, you know me - I have to ramble as well, which as you say, contains an intellectual element. When I lived in faith, it was a true dichotomy, simply because that's the way God chose to make me. I had no choice but to balance the intellectual with the spiritual. i know paul builds a caveat against reason into his argument, but I'm sorry, on the face of it that is a self-serving argument. It appears that Paul knows that intellectualizing faith may serve to weaken it. I disagree - I believe it has, or should have, the opposite effect. I think I'm not alone in this, as I consider such rationalist believers as C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Ben Wetherington, William Lane Craig, and many others. My reason merely took me outside the orthodox, and am also joined by such as Marcus Borg, Bart Ehrman, Bishop Spong, and micah;) (8 hrs ago | post #142105)
Well now that's a strange assertion to make. Who's accused ya? (8 hrs ago | post #142100)
She has >not once< told him not to post. (10 hrs ago | post #142040)
I wish you would be more specific. This broad and deniably enigmatic implication places an unwonted and unnecessary damper on enjoyable discourse. Since the post you responded to was directed to me, it is obvious I am to be included in this broad grouping above who "appear" with subtle flattery and/or bashing while laughing in veiled guise. It brings to mind the old joke where one says "Hello", and the other says, "What did he mean by that?" If that is what is implied, I will grudgingly dispense with "subtle flattery", which in my world is open and honest acknowledgment and appreciation where it's due. It is very unsettling and I regret that it appears to result in paranoia. I am often reminded of the apparent truth of Tim saying long ago that there is no hope of rapprochement as befits all Gods creatures - I can only repeat what I said then - the wall-building is only active on one side. For me, this is one of my fundamental gripes about religion in general - I have a hard time countenancing a God that purposefully builds into his creation. Peace, if it not be out of keeping with the situation. HipGnosis (10 hrs ago | post #142039)
So you also don't believe in the efficacy and importance of example? This is fascinating. Paul wasted all his ink on that subject? Or are some here just being contrarian for it's own sakeWhat an odd question. I think the better question is, why do you question my motive in this regard?????? I find that strange. I would like to point out that it's been all ideas to this point. When people start questioning motives and character, two things are evident - they have no good return argument, and the possibility of a fruitful exchange is minimal. Peace, in any case. HipG (11 hrs ago | post #142013)
Thumper, you have absolutely no moral standing to be saying that. You only say this because you are on the same "Camping " trip as this Gary/Dave bipolar proselyte. This thread is littered with your foul denunciations of fellow Christians who weren't speaking the right "doctrine ", by YOUR lights. You can be forgiven, esp. since it is obvious you are "trying" to mend your ways, but don't expect to bide your time and expect all to forget. Sonny boy you long ago gave up your right to ride the high horse. There's some truth for ya, Christian. (11 hrs ago | post #142004)
I have been enjoying your presentation. I would put a different spin on it, but I think it's vital to bring the stories into relevant terms. I see few attempt it. Good job. Peace. HipG (11 hrs ago | post #142001)
Which means that all who decry the questions of the freethinkers really have little real faith in God's plan, doesn't it? Thanks for pointing that out. But come now, Thumper, you're just being contrary for it's own sake (serprize, serprize), and picked a random scripture with a most obscure relevance to the point. Is there such a thing as "example ", or not? Shall we consult scripture? If you acknowledge the social relevance of "example ", then you are left no choice but to concede the point. When I claim to have achieved peace in special relationship with Almighty God, and then proceed to act like an immature name-calling fool with little control over my temper (just for instance), what does this say about my witness? (11 hrs ago | post #141997)
Q & A with HipGnosis
Headline:
Future begins in a moment
Hometown:
Spoon River country
Neighborhood:
Pangea
Local Favorites:
ho'made pie
I Belong To:
the Lollipop Guild
When I'm Not on Topix:
message runner for the French Underground
Read My Forum Posts Because:
there's a prize in every box
I'm Listening To:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v
Read This Book:
The Grapes Of Wrath; Illusions; The Age of Reason
Favorite Things:
old dogs, kids, and watermelon wine
On My Mind:
All the bridge-builders and firemen out there a-pluggin away
I Believe In:
The Gilded Rule 1. Treat as you would be treated. 2. Reciprocate as you are treated. 3. Go directly back to #1.
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