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Jehovah's Witness

URL update for the "1919" presentation

Hi, As the result of feedback and comments, I made some minor adjustments to the presentation on the Watchtower's method for calculating 1919. These adjustments are so minor that I doubt whether most people will notice them. I guess I am a bit of a pedant. Anyway, the URLs for the touched-up files are: For the PowerPoint Show: http://www.jwstudi es.com/Appointed_i n_1919_version_2.p psx For the PDF file: http://www.jwstudi es.com/Appointed_i n_1919_version_2.p df Doug  (Jun 2, 2016 | post #1)

Jehovah's Witness

The Watchtower's method to show that it was appointed in ...

Irishdub, Are you honestly saying that the WTS will revert to saying that the Parousia took place in 1874? Or that 1914 will see the end of gentile governments and the setting up of God's Kingdom on earth under the Zionists? The outbreak of unprecedented peace? Or that it will revert to being a democracy? Or that it will stop using the term, "Jehovah's witnesses"? Will they revert to voting for the presidency of the Society? Doug  (May 28, 2016 | post #6)

Jehovah's Witness

The Watchtower's method to show that it was appointed in ...

Hi, Please note that when you tell me of the corrections I need to make that this is a simplfied, minimalist presentation dealing with the Society's appointment in 1919. It is available as a PowerPoint Show: http://www.jwstudi es.com/Appointed_i n_1919.ppsx And as a PDF: http://www.jwstudi es.com/Appointed_i n_1919.pdf Doug  (May 26, 2016 | post #1)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

Becuase the Genesis 1 account was created by Elohists, this is the reason God is named EL throughout Genesis 1 and why the group of Gods is named the Elohim (in OUR image). That story was written after the Creation story was written by the Yahwists, who employed the Name YHWH in their writings from the outset. Yes I agree, these writers were homophobes, and their agenda permeates their writings. Genesis 1 is poetry; it is a religious story. It was not written by any eye witness. Doug  (Apr 26, 2016 | post #49)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

Robert, I had been a faithful SDA for almost 2 decades, teaching and taking the occasional sermon. Bob Parr, editor of the Australasian Record, provided great help to me as I exposed errors of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and I provided him with material that he found useful and kept on file. I submitted an article to the Record, reflecting my thoughts on Romans 3:31 ff, which I have outlined earlier in this Thread. I wrote that in the direct context of this particular passage, “the law” refers to the totality of the Hebrew Scriptures, not to any one part of it. References to Abraham and to David as being in “the Law” show this to be the case. I received a rather terse response from the Editor who had replaced Bob. I suspect this replacement might have taken place because Bob was seen as aligned with Des Ford. I responded to the new Editor that the SDA Commentary fully supports my position. He replied that the EGW comments on that passage do not support my position. So I wrote to Raymond Cottrell, co-editor of the SDA commentary. He responded that the EGW comments were added by the EGW Estate and he had nothing to do with them. In a second letter, Cottrell told me that I should not rock the boat. So I hopped out of it. Doug  (Apr 26, 2016 | post #48)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

Robert, There is no need to be rude, simply because you disagree with me. We can diasgree without being disagreeable. The Sabbath-keeping writers created a story to justify the reason why all should observe it. These writers were already Sabbath-keepers so they (Elohists) formulated a Creation myth to support their exsiting religious stance. Similarly with the second Creation myth, which begins at Genesis 2:4b (written by Yahwists). These people stoned homosexuals so they created a story of man/woman relationship to support their political stance. None of these writers wrote from first-hand expeience. They were not present at Creation. They simply manufactured stories to support their religio/political agendas, using imagery current in the late Iron Age. The various stories received their current unified form during the 4th and 5th century BCE Persian Era, strongly influenced by Ezra. This information is so fundamental that I should not need to be writing this. Doug  (Apr 26, 2016 | post #44)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

That's the writing on the tablets. What about the list at Ex 20, which were not written on stone? If you want to obsewrve the Sabbath, please go ahead. It is critical that you live in accord with your convictions. But do not confuse the Torah/nomos with the Decalogue. They are not synonymous. The term law encompasses a range of meanings, depending on the immediate context. It might refer to the Torah, it might refer to the toal Hebrew Scriptures. Further, it is vitally important to know the full context of each piece of writing: when it was written, by whom, the immediate purpose, the local idioms at the time, and so on. And then to identify the changes made during its transmission. Further, understand Jewish thinking, the manner of their chiastic structures, their poetic format. These writers were not writing to us. They were addressing their immediate audience, using local ideas and idioms. Go with your Sabbath observance my friend, if that accords with your convictions. If your God vaporizes me because I am wrong about the sabbath then He/She is a small-minded, petty and vindictive God. Doug  (Apr 26, 2016 | post #43)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

If you disagree with the above, then you disagree with the Biblical record. That is your right, if that is your intention. Doug  (Apr 25, 2016 | post #39)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

I am not speaking of the Sabbath, I am speaking of "the Law". Did the Jews in Egypt know and observe the Law? Did they have the priestly system operating as is described in the Law, including the Tabernacle? These are the features which are presented in the Law. Further, when Paul or Jesus speaks of "the Law" most times they mean the totality of their Hebrew Scriptures (not yet canonized, of course). Defend the Sabbath if you wish to but do not confuse that with a discussion on the Law, the Torah. Doug  (Apr 25, 2016 | post #38)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

A striking illustration of the careful attention paid by Bible writers to the use of the article is found in Paul's discussion of law. As a typical example, the apostle uses the term "Law" fifteen times in the discussion of Galatians, chapter 3. In the Greek it appears six times with the article and nine times without. In the English it appears fourteen times with the article and only once without. The question may fittingly be raised, Was Paul indiscriminate in his use of the article? This can hardly be admitted. He was doubtless fully aware of the force of the use and the non-use of it. When he used the article he was pointing to a particular law and identifying it. When he omitted it he was looking at law from the standpoint of its function or quality. Some have naively contended that Paul used the article to refer to moral law, and omitted it when he referred to ceremonial law. Such a position is wholly untenable. However, even though the translator should scrupulously avoid inserting the article where it is absent in the Greek, he might even then not convey to the reader the force of its absence in the Greek. The careful distinctions in shades of meaning are among the untranslatable riches of the Greek New Testament which cannot be transferred into a modern language. The translator does the best he can, choosing either the English definite or indefinite articles, the one that he thinks most nearly approaches what the original writer had in mind. (“Problems in Bible Translation”, pages 51-52, published by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, 1954)  (Apr 25, 2016 | post #37)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

LAW AT ROMANS 3 31 FF Following a discussion on the “law of faith”, Paul poses the question: “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31, NRSV) To prove his point, Paul quotes from “the Law”. His first example is Abraham, who lived long before the giving of the Law to Moses. More tellingly, the second example from “the Law” is king David. This shows that in this context, Paul is using “law” to mean the totality of their Hebrew Scriptures. THE “GREATEST LAW” The writers of the Matthew Gospel likewise saw the “Law” as more than any Ten Commandments. When the expert in the Jewish Law asked Jesus for the Greatest Command in the Law, Jesus did not say that the scriptures (the “law and the prophets”) hang on the Ten Commandments. He answered with passages that lie away from narratives related to any Decalogue. Quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18, he responded: “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matt 22:40, NRSV) Doug  (Apr 25, 2016 | post #36)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

Exodus 31:18 states that God provided Moses with two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God (see Exodus 32:15, 16). At that stage, the reader does not know the inscribed words. Later, after Moses had broken the tablets, God spoke, repeating the inscriptions. This enables the reader to know what was written on the stone tablets (Exodus 34:6-26. See also verse 27). These words, which include commands to observe the “festival of unleavened bread” and the prohibition on boiling a kid in its mother’s milk” is explicitly stated to be the “Ten Commandments”: “He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.” (Exodus 34:28, NRSV). Doug  (Apr 25, 2016 | post #34)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

Are you speaking of the TCs only *spoken* by God and written down later by Moses (Exodus 20) or do you mean the TCs written on stone after Moses broke the originals, and are actually called the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34)? Doug  (Apr 22, 2016 | post #29)

Seventh-day Adventist

Are all under the law?

Read the context to determine what Paul means by "Law" at that location. For example, at the context of Romans 3:21 ff, the expression "law" ranges from the totality of the Hebrew sacred writings to "works of obedience". Do not fall for the knee-jerk reaction that reads "law" but thinks "Ten Commandments" . Doug  (Apr 20, 2016 | post #22)

Seventh-day Adventist

Gen 2:17 Which Death?

Firstly, discover who wrote the story. Then discover their philosophy. (They were not present at the time.) Do not assume that the story writers knew anything about the future, let alone anything about Jesus. Secondly, recognise that there are two creation myths written by two different groups of writers. The second myth starts at Genesis 2:4b, written by Yahwist priests. The first story (actually written later) was written by priests who used the name EL for God until it was revealed to Moses. Their expression "let US make" refers to the Elohim, the grooup of Gods headed by EL. (The Israelites were polytheists until the 6th century BCE Babylonian Captivity.) The structure of Genesis 1 is obviously poetic, with parallels between Days 1 and 4, Days 2 and 5, and with Days 3 and 6. I find it interesting to see such emotion expressed over a fable. Religion needs to believe in the Creation myth otherwsie they cannot make a story out of Jesus' death. Doug  (Apr 13, 2016 | post #25)

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