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African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

Yes, please do come back and tell me what I'm wrong about. I'm genuinely curiousNobody here is arguing for or against an African origin of Egyptians, nor am I "knocking " anyone for arguing for one. Everyone here already knows and agrees Egyptians came from Africa and were Africans. Trollslayer, however, is taking it to the next illogical step of labeling Ancient Egypt anachronistic terms which were not applicable then just as they are not now. Meanwhile, I, as normal, am presenting the more scientifically according view of an Ancient Egypt with varying phenotypes ranging from very light to very dark running from north to south, and that that region of the continent has kept to this pattern to present day. Labeling Ancient Egyptians as Black is baseless and simplistic, not to mention unsupported by science or scientists. Trollslayer has no counter evidence for the fact that ME's are essentially the same people as AE's, but still continues to spew his irrational and blatantly false arguments, not even caring to address the fact that Egyptians never considered themselves "Black" or any approximation of the term in ancient times, nor were they given such a label by greeks or other ancient peoplesNobody is disagreeing with an African origin of Egyptians, Mike, so can you please stop mentioning that? Like I already told you, I don't care about what people take interest in. The argument here is about Trollslayer's ridiculous insistence on applying anachronistic terms on an Ancient people where it is inapplicable and some of the other baseless notions and blatant lies he's told and keeps telling.  (Jun 8, 2013 | post #729)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

I'm not pushing anything. I'm telling you what the facts are, and leaving you with the choice of either accepting those facts or ignoring them. You seem to prefer the latterThere's nothing logical about this statement you just made. And we're not interpreting historical events. We are, or at least I am, observing scientific fact; FACT that neither you nor anyone can disputeYou're really disappointing me by lying and refusing to be logical or factual. You people really need to get a firm grip on reality.  (Jun 8, 2013 | post #727)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

No, you don't get it and apparently don't possess the basic minimal logic to get it. This isn't about beliefs. This about facts; FACTS that you can either choose to accept facts or you can continue to remain delusional about, but however you choose to deal with FACTS, facts is what they will remainThere's nothing dogmatic about it. It is scientifically proven that the people inhabiting Egypt today are essentially the same as 5000 years ago. You're just a delusional who refuses to accept plain factDiop didn't crush any one except those arguing in favor of an external origin of Egypt or one that possessed no affinities with Sub Saharan Africans. But his insistence on a wholly Black Egypt was then and now untenable and rejected by all the important scholars and real expertsMany Arabs" is irrelevant to this discussion. There are "many Arabs" in Sudan, but Sudan has still retained its overall ethnic composition since ancient times. The Black people there are still Black, and the light skin Egyptians living in Egypt have been there since the inception of Ancient EgyptYou presented no such evidence whatsoever. The Greeks never called Egyptians "Ethiop" . The only source you showed was a Asante who was promply rebuffed as a liar by my own counter source. Egyptians were always distinguished from Ethiopians and likened to North Indians in color as opposed to South Indians like "Ethiopians " wereSome were Black, obviously. Many weren't, or at least, many who wouldn't have been considered "like ethiopians" back then, and wouldn't be considered Black todayIt wasn't "mixed race", it was a mixture of phenotypes ranging from dark brown to very light, just like todayWe all know that Egyptians never considered themselves "Black", nor were they ever given such a label by any outside foreigners. We also know that Egyptians today are essentially the same people they were in ancient times before any outside incursions, as is evidenced by science. That thing you seem to be so diametrically opposed to. So no, Ancient Egypt was never "Black" then just as it is not "Black" now. Logic and facts; two things you are constantly at odds with.  (Jun 7, 2013 | post #718)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

No, you're just making up more lies. The majority of Egyptians are Egyptian, as I have evidenced on multiple occasions. You don't have anything to counter the evidence. What eurocentric dogma are talking about and what other parts of AfricaWhy do you keep bringing up Hawass? Did I mention anything about Hawass? I don't care about Hawass. The people I cited are scientists and certified experts. They are not Arabs and have nothing to do with ArabsThat's funny. Given the fact that his "Black Egypt" thesis was rejected more than once by practically all scholars of that day and this one, and his linguistic "proclamation s" about Egyptian language being linked somehow to Wolof and other languages, as well as is constant attempts to try and establish Egypt as the mother of African civilization having been thoroughly debunked and dismissed as nothing more than uneducated guesses by modern linguists an actual experts shows he himself is anything but an expert. Good researcher maybe. Maybe even a good politician. But far from an expert. Certainly a "renowned " one. You don't seem to know what the definition of an expert is. I don't know what political differences you are referring to. I don't care for Diop because of his diffusionist nonsense, making it seem as though other Africans are incapable of manifesting civilization on their own without the help of great and mighty Egypt. Of all the language No, that type of self delusion and misinformation is not something I care for at allWhy do you keep telling me to read about the UNESCO conference when I've already told you I have? I have the book. I've read it. But unlike you, I'm not stuck in the past, nor do I refuse to accept facts. Diop's proposal of an all-Black Egypt was rejected back then as it is now because it is wrong. Inaccurate. Incorrect. Untenable. False. A lieThe only people who you find credible the people who tell you what you want to hear, not people who are telling fact. I haven't called upon Basil Davidson because he was neither an expert on Egypt nor has he offered any definitive statement about the ethnic composition of Egypt. He made mention about Greek writers saying the Egyptians looked like "other Africans". That isn't definitive, and therefore, tells me nothing. Plus I didn't see any statement from any Greek saying that. What I've seen is that Greeks thought that "Ethiopians " looked like southern Indians while Egyptians looked like northern ones, as well as peoples near the Caucasus Mountians (Colchians), but not Ethiopians (Black Africans) themselves. What that tells me is that the Greeks thought the Egyptians as being light skin, because the people they compared them to were, which is not an uncommon feature in Africa, but it is more common in the north than the Interior.  (Jun 5, 2013 | post #709)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

You are a very impertinent woman. This question has no coherence. He made his statement in present tense. You're replying back in past tense. Learn about tenses, then go learn some manners.  (Jun 4, 2013 | post #705)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

Please. I gave you authorities; scientists. They say the exact same thing, practically verbatim, as sheThat's not an explanation. That is a random proclamation with no scientific backing. Do you understand the differenceAnd the logical world of reality will take the word's of actual scientists such as Keita and Yurco, licensed professionals such as that Egyptian lady, and argumentatively sound academics over some Asante's untenable and discredited fantasies, thank *you* very muchYet you have no counter. 1) She said she's Egyptian. You have no evidence of her being anything other than that. 2) Whoever taught her must have been certified and/or licensed, as she said she was. And once again, you have no evidence of any Arabs being involved in any of her teachings or any lies being told since you offer no counter of anything said. 3) Being that she is Egyptian/African, licensed and trained in the study of African history, her word trumps any Black American afrocentrist or Senegalese hyper-diffusionist in reference to who Egyptians were or were notAlong with all the rest of the scientific and reputable academic community worldwideDo you realize how often afrocentrists will swallows lies, fantasies, and myths before they do plain backed factsFirst you said you wanted an African expert, and now that you got one that you can't discredit, you want a Black one, which you also got--e.g. Keita-- and still found something to complain about. Everybody knowledgeable and studied on the matter says the same thing. You refuse to let go of your delusions for some reason. You will believe the most ridiculous crap on earth as long as it is about Black people being painted in what you imagine to be a "positive " light, with no questions asked or even a microgram of skepticism. Yet I place the words of scientists, academics, certified professionals, and historians in front of you, and all you spout is denial, fatuous critiques, and dismissalsThis is just more rambling. Egyptians were and are mixed with elements of what is now North Africa, which probably featured present-day typical Berber phenotypes, and elements of what is now Sub Saharan Northeast Africa, peoples who would have most probably looked like modern Nilo Saharan and/or Cushitic groups, with the Berber types towards the north and the Nilo Saharan/Cushitic types towards the south, and a *mixture* of both types in between. This is what Ancient Egypt started with--a *mixture* of varying phenotypes--and that is what it is like today, as is evidenced by all the real experts. I suggest you learn to come to grips with reality.  (Jun 4, 2013 | post #704)

African-American

Why do Afrocentrists obsess over Egypt and NON-African Ci...

No it isn't incorrect. Indo-Trinidadians still have "connections " to Indian culture, and even have Hindu VillagesTheir language coming from their means that their language has a *connection* to Europe, MikeIt doesn't matter. The European diaspora in South Africa, America, etc., still retain elements of the religion they came to those places with, thus, another *connectionAmerica n folk music, rock and roll, which has folk music influences, country music, American classical music, pop music, and others all have European *connections*. And if you want to get technical, you could say that even more genres are connected via the instruments used.  (Jun 3, 2013 | post #8528)

African-American

Why do Afrocentrists obsess over Egypt and NON-African Ci...

It doesn't have to be the same. Saying something is not the same as something else isn't the same as saying two or more things have "no connection", which is what makes the proclamation so silly to meYou forgot that Afrikaners still retain linguistic "connections " to EuropeTheir connection cannot be lost if there are still characteristics in their culture that *connect* to EuropeAmerica isn't the only other habitat in the human world besides Europe, Mike. Nigerians going to places like Brazil or India may very well soak up certain aspects of the local culture. That has nothing to do with whether there are or are not any more 'connections' between them and their native landWell first of all, a genetic connection is still a connection. And second, those questions you keep asking are irrelevant. Do Bahians know exactly which city their ancestors came from? Yea, now go tell them they have no connection to Africa. And in any event, I also listed of several cultural elements that connect White South Africans, as well as Americans and Australians, to Europe. So saying these people have 'no connection' to Europe when there are obvious connections spanning language, ritual, and of course, history, is plain and simply, incorrect.  (Jun 3, 2013 | post #8527)

African-American

Why do Afrocentrists obsess over Egypt and NON-African Ci...

No connection to Europe? You mean to tell me that Boers and White Americans have no biological, religious, literal, linguistic derivatives *connecting* them to Europe? Please tell me this is a jokeUmmm...If it is derived from Europe then that makes it a **connection to Europe**, MikeTheir language has African influences, but practically all their culture still derives from/relates to Europe, including their literature, religion and arts. ...meaning they are still enough alike to know that they are related. You're not going to find this *connection* in any indigenous African languageKnowing more about something has nothing to do with being "culturally " anything. Do I have to be Muslim to know more about Islamic culture than some other Muslim? No I don't. Just like there are a lot of Black people who were born and raised here in America who don't know sh8t or very little about various aspects of Black American history and culture, but someone who has never even been to the country might have excellent knowledge of itSouth Africa itself is 'westernized'. SoYou mean like the Lebanese who are born and raised in places like Liberia and the Ivory Coast who still are culturally Lebanese? Being born and raised in a place doesn't render you culturally anything. It just makes you someone who was born and raised in that particular regionThey didn't drop anything, their culture still possesses many European elements, including their language. This especially goes for White Americans and Australians, or pretty much any European diasporic group. Just because they have their own culture doesn't mean that have no connection to Europe. That is just plain sillyAnd yet Indo-Trinidadians still celebrate Indian culture. They even have Hindu Villages. http://indiandiasp ora.nic.in/diaspor apdf/chapter16.pdf So I don't see your point in mentioning themYou mean other than the fact that their language, religion, and music is of European relationLike I said, being African has nothing to do with culture. It is to do with biology.  (May 31, 2013 | post #8480)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

I don't know what her credentials are, but then again, she can't be any less credible than Asante, certainly no less rationalUhhh, no. They're Egyptian, which is why they are listed as Egyptian Egyptologists and not Arab Egyptologists, and Hawass isn't the only person on that listHe just keeps repeating that Egyptians were Black. No argument and no explanations. This isn't telling me anything. The Kenyan girl explains more than he does. This Egyptian woman is much more informative, and presumably more informed, and also explains more than he does. Listen to all the parts in order 1 through 5, but pay special attention to parts 3 and 4 when you get to them. Part 1 http://www.youtube .com/watch?v=vtWLr y9o70c Part 2 http://www.youtube .com/watch?v=lzCsG dH_gQ8 Part 3 http://www.youtube .com/watch?v=vBz0C llbch4 Part 4 http://www.youtube .com/watch?v=v-4o- _AXgSA Part 5 http://www.youtube .com/watch?v=851ad kHpgZo  (May 30, 2013 | post #696)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

Oh, and Trollslayer, since you wish to restrict this argument down to only African scholars, why not restrict it down even further to only include Egyptian Scholars. After all, I doubt that there are any greater authorities on who the Egyptians looked like than Egyptian scholars and Egyptologists themselves. You made mention of the majority of African scholars holding the view of a Black Egypt. I haven't seen any evidence of this, but in any case, none of those people matter now because now, if we are to get the real truth of the matter, we must go to the Egyptians themselves and themselves ONLY, and settle this matter once and for all. So go show me where the majority of Egyptian scholars share your view of a Black Egypt. Here's a list to get you started: http://en.wikipedi a.org/wiki/Categor y:Egyptian_Egyptol ogists  (May 29, 2013 | post #694)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

Why should the Egyptians not be considered anything other than Black when they were never called "Ethiopians " like Nubians and other Black Africans were? Herodotus in (c. 484-420 BC), in Histories, did in now way either "always specify that a Negro race was involved...wheneve r [he] mentioned the Egyptians people" or clearly describe the Egyptians as a black people, as Diop, Bernal and Asante affirm...He said: "For it is plain to tsee that the Colchians are Egyptians...I myself guessed it, partly because they are dark-skinned and whooly haired though that indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are too." (Dark-skinned is the usual translation of the original Greek melachroes and is used by A.D. Godley, while black-skinned is used by George Rawlinson. Oulotriches is usually translated as whooly-haired or curly-haired.) It can be assumed that had Herodotus wanted to designate the Colchians as blacks (and by extension, designate the Egyptians as blacks), he would have named the Colchians by the standard Greek terms aitho and Aithiops, "scorched faces", "Ethiopians. " This is precisely what he did on several other occasions when he wanted to indicate that a people--whether an African or an Asian--was of the black race, or what he thought was the black race. But not only did he not name the Cochians as Aithiops, "Ethiopians, " in the same sentence he once again distinguished between Egyptians and Ethiopians." pp 319, 320 Egypt, Trunk of the Tree, Vol. 2  (May 29, 2013 | post #693)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

No, you're comfortability doesn't matter in the context of what is true, as you deliberately ignore everything that opposes you in favor of a rejected fantasy without any explanation. Neither you, Diop or any other afrocentrist ever bothers to explain how, if the Egyptians were Black, then why were they never referred to as "Ethiopians " like Nubians were. You all never bother to explain why you insist that Ancient Egypt was Black but not modern Egypt, if though they are essentially the same people. Keita doesn't dance around the issue of a Black Ancient Egypt anymore than you dance around the issue of a Modern Black Egypt. You can't explain why Northern Egypt shows the same Caucasian-type affinity as does most of the rest of North Africa. You can't explain to me why neither Ancient, Medieval, or Modern were ever considered BlackPost a citation evidencing this, and let them show evidence explaining all the issues I raised above for above.  (May 29, 2013 | post #692)

African-American

As an African American would you go (back) to Africa?

It doesn't matter if you're comfortable with Diop's "findings ". His postulations of a "Black Egypt" have been DISMISSED by the vast majority of scientists working in field for being 'unscientific' and simplistic. "The Afrocentric insistence on the ancient Egyptians as a black race proves anachronistic and limited because the ancient Egyptian did not conceptualize himself or herself in this way. The fact that the ancient Egyptian society was heterogeneous inherently points to the futility of trying to find the pure racial identity of the ancient Egyptians as either “black” or “white.” Secondly, the degree of intercultural and spatial relations that existed serves as evidence that the ancients lay little or no emphasis on race as a distinguishing factor. What is important then is to ask how the ancients perceived themselves and the “other.” Thus although science may in the future prove whether the ancient Egyptians were “black,” “white,” or “African,” at the end of the day, the Egyptian was “What” and “Who” he or she essentially thought himself or herself to be. Egyptian civilization was racially DIVERSE from its inception" ~ Eva Nthoki Mwanika http://www.scribd. com/doc/81957748/M wanika-Ancient-Egy tian-Identity Since the second half of the 20th century, most (but not all) scholars have held that applying modern notions of race to ancient Egypt is anachronistic.[116 ][117][118] The 2001 Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt states that "Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study.”[8] The focus of some experts who study population biology has been to consider whether or not the Ancient Egyptians were primarily biologically North African rather than to which race they belonged.[119] UNESCO convened the "Symposium on the Peopling of Ancient Egypt and the Deciphering of the Meroitic Script" in Cairo in 1974. At that forum the "Black Egyptian" theory was rejected by 90% of the delegates.[120][12 1] The arguments for all sides are recorded in the UNESCO publication General History of Africa,[120] with the "Origin of the Egyptians" chapter being written by Diop. In 2008, S. O. Y. Keita wrote that "There is no scientific reason to believe that the primary ancestors of the Egyptian population emerged and evolved outside of northeast Africa.... The basic overall genetic profile of the modern population is consistent with the diversity of ancient populations that would have been indigenous to northeastern Africa and subject to the range of evolutionary influences over time, although researchers vary in the details of their explanations of those influences."[ 122] http://en.wikipedi a.org/wiki/Black_E gyptian_Hypothesis #Position_of_moder n_scholarship  (May 29, 2013 | post #688)

Q & A with Bakari Neferu

Headline:

Africa

Hometown:

Oakland

I Belong To:

My people

When I'm Not on Topix:

Reading, Thinking, Learning

Favorite Things:

The continent

On My Mind:

You already know