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Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

Let me post again my summery of events because AlanMF is trying to confuse people about my position by PRETENDING it has changed. It has not. I simply held off from providing all the details at the beginning of the discussion. == Quote: == http://www.topix.c om/forum/religion/ jehovahs-witness/T CJOC9CH1NL3JLO24/p ost181 Let's take another look at the clear and obvious scriptures these people are looking for any excuse to deny. *** 2 Chr 36:19-21 They burnt God's house, and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels of it. 20 He carried those who had escaped from the sword away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: 21 to fulfill the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. that scripture says it all. They will bend over backwards to read it in some twisted way that was never intended. But let us take a look at what it CLEARLY says: *** 2 Chr 36:19 They burnt God's house, and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels of it. 1) The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed along with Jerusalem itself *** 2 Chr 36:20 He carried those who had escaped from the sword away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: 2) God's people were taken into exile to serve Babylon. 3) Those people would serve Babylon until Persia defeats Babylon. *** 2 Chr 36:21 to fulfill the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah... 4) All this is to fulfil the words of Jeremiah *** 2 Chr 36:21 ... until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath... 5) The land will remain desolate for the entire period *** 2 Chr 36:21 ... to fulfill seventy years. 6) And the duration of all this is 70 years. So there you have it. BEGINNING with the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the desolating of the final piece of land that did not yet belong to Babylon we have SEVENTY YEARS until Persia defeats Babylon and the Jews are returned to Jerusalem and the Temple begins functioning again so that the Jews can begin serving God (according to the Mosaic Law) again after having served Babylon for 70 years. Easy peasy but VERY INCONVENIENT for the anti-JW fanatics who like to attack the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. Let us look at that time-line again: God's temple destroyed (desolation begins) God's people sent to serve Babylon Jeremiah's 70 years of desolation/exile prophecy begins. | | | | | | | v 68 years later Persia defeats Babylon | V 69 year later people start to arrive at the ruins of Jerusalem | V 70 years later worship at the Temple is restored after the laying of its foundations. So for all of Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy to be fulfilled all the things that happened at the BEGINNING of the prophecy needed to end. That prophecy BEGAN with the destruction of the Temple (meaning Jews could no longer server God according to Mosaic Law) and the removal of the final group of God's people to Babylon and the DESOLATING of the final part of land previously left intact. ALL those things were prophesied to come to an end 70 years later with the overthrow of Babylon by Persia and the end of the desolation (which happened with the rebuilding of Jerusalem) and the end of servitude (which happened with the restoration of the Temple).  (12 hrs ago | post #287)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

AlanMF knows this is NOT my position as I explicitly states in this post: http://www.topix.c om/forum/religion/ jehovahs-witness/T CJOC9CH1NL3JLO24/p ost182AlanMFs pretense that I am trying to trick people simply because I did not go into the full detail at the beginning of the discussion is nothing but a "dirty tricks" campaign because the Bible so obviously says everything I state it says and causing a diversion doesn't seem to be working for him. My "strategy " is simply to keep pointing out the scriptures themselves that are very plain and very clear.  (12 hrs ago | post #286)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

I have no idea who AlanMF thinks he is fooling: *** 2 Chr 36:21 to fulfill the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.  (13 hrs ago | post #283)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

Correction: It was NOT an "admission ". I never denied it. I always accepted it. I simply chose not to include it to keep the discussion simple and relevant.  (13 hrs ago | post #281)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

Except, of course, the scripture that AlanMF himself quoted that specificalls states it happened 2 years later: *** Ezra 3:8 Now in the second year of their coming to God's house at Jerusalem, in the second month, Zerubbabel ... and all those who had come out of the captivity to Jerusalem, began the work and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to have the oversight of the work of Jehovah's house. NOTE: "...in the second year of their coming to God's house at Jerusalem..." Did everyone get that? They did not begin work on the temple foundation until the SECOND YEAR after their arriving in Jerusalem. NOTE also it must have taken them a number of months AFTER the order was given for them to return. All in all rounding up to the nearest whole year TWO YEARS is about exactly correct.  (13 hrs ago | post #280)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

The Bible is very clear that the 70 year DESOLATION begins with the DESTRUCTION of Jerusalem and its temple: *** 2 Chr 36:19 They burnt God's house, and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels of it. *** 2 Chr 36:20 He carried those who had escaped from the sword away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: *** 2 Chr 36:21 to fulfill the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. NOTE: "to fulfill the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah" NOTE: "until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths" NOTE: "As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath" NOTE: "to fulfill seventy years" Could the Bible be any more clear?  (19 hrs ago | post #270)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

This is untrue. I did not ADMIT any such thing. But at the beginning of this discussion I IGNORED the apparent 2 year discrepancy because it is irrelevant to proving that the SECULAR date for the destruction of Jerusalem disagrees with the BIBLE chronology. It is MY DESIRE to SIMPLIFY the discussion so that more READERS will understand what is happening. However READERS take note that AlanMF's main tactic is to write long, tedious nit-picking posts designed to make the discussion as complex as possible. He does this by harping on details that are barely relevant just to distract and divert from the very clear statements in the Bible. The bible tells us when the 70 years of desolation/sabbath s/captivity begin and allow us to calculate their end to within a few months. The other tactic AlanMF uses is to insult and deride anyone who argues against him. I assume by doing this he is attempting to turn the discussion into a worthless brawl or he thinks that is he insults the other person enough READERS will think he must be superior in some way. Personally I know most READERS are a lot smarter than that. Regardless the tactic seems to be DIVERSION away from what the scriptures actually do sayWhatever way AlanMF chooses to read the words recorded in the Jeremiah scroll, I choose to read them the same way that the Bible does: *** 2 Chr 36:21 to fulfill the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. NOTE: As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. CLEARLY Jeremiah meant the 70 years to apply to the number of years the land would be "desolate " andd keeping its sabbathsI think we have to be VERY suspicious of someone like AlanMF summarizing what the Bible says.  (19 hrs ago | post #269)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

THE TRUTH: I merely pointed out that the BIBLE says that 2 years later the general population had NOT returned to Jerusalem - only a contingent sent to rebuild the temple and that they did not even begin to rebuild the temple until 2 years after having been sent. http://www.topix.c om/forum/religion/ jehovahs-witness/T CJOC9CH1NL3JLO24/p ost205The Bible clearly states that the order to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem was given to fulfil the words of Jeremiah: *** 2 Chr 36:22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, *** 2 Chr 36:23 "Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, 'Jehovah, the God of heaven, has given all the kingdoms of the earth to me; and he has commanded me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all his people, Jehovah his God be with him, and let him go up.'"  (19 hrs ago | post #268)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

Exactly. It could only be said they were ALL serving Babylon for 70 of those years. The fact that some may have served longer is irrelevant.  (Yesterday | post #257)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

There you just admitted it. You said: "Jeremiah 27:8-11 specifically indicates such REBELLION to be the opposite of SERVING Babylon" That means it could not be said that all the nations were serving Babylon while Jerusalem was in REBELLION. The rebellion in Jerusalem did not end until they were taken into exile and Jerusalem was destroyed. So the 70 years of servitude could not begin until AFTER the REBELLION in Jerusalem was quashed.  (Yesterday | post #256)

Jehovah's Witness

False religion is ALL religion.

I believe only what the BIBLE says and I choose my "leaders " accordingly.  (Yesterday | post #108)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

You have this all backwards. You are arguing that the servitude began when the FIRST nation fell to Babylon. Can't you see how wrong that is? How can ALL THE NATIONS be serving Babylon after only the first of many nations has begun serving Babylon? You can't have "all these nations" serving Babylon until after Babylon has captured ALL of them. THINK ABOUT THIS If the 70 years of servitude began with the FIRST nation Babylon defeated then all the other nations after them would have served LESS than 70 years when Babylon was defeated! If the 70 years of servitude began with the SECOND nation Babylon defeated then all the other nations after them would have served LESS than 70 years when Babylon was defeated! If the 70 years of servitude began with the THIRD nation Babylon defeated then all the other nations after them would have served LESS than 70 years when Babylon was defeated! Do you see where this is heading? The 70 years of servitude can only begin counting when ALL OF THE NATIONS have been defeated by Babylon. Who is the last nation to be defeated? Israel are not desolated until their last city is destroyed: Jerusalem. Only then can it be said that ALL THE NATIONS are serving Babylon. Jeremiah does NOT say "all the nations except the Jews" will serve the king of Babylon. *** Jer 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years That can not happen while the Jews are still rebelling against Babylon and their capital city is UNDAMAGED and populated. LOOK: *** 2 Chr 36:20 He carried those [Jews in Jerusalem] who had escaped from the sword away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia to fulfill the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah... The 70 years of servitude can not begin before the FINAL transportation of Jews from Jerusalem to Babylon.  (Yesterday | post #249)

Jehovah's Witness

DAN CHAPTER 4 and the 7 TIMES

Wow, READERS Mr "imagoodboy " has actually resorted to flat out lying to try to get his twisted version of the scriptures across. He knows perfect wel that I was merely saying that Jeremiah's scripture was not relevant to the particular point being made at that time. He is generalizing my words in order to try to trick people into believing something we all know is not true. These people are shameless in the lengths they will go to to convince people the Bible does not say what it clearly sayd. Jeremiah CLEARLY says the land would be desolate for 70 years: *** Jer 25:11 This whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. The land is not "a desolatin" while the city of Jerusalem is still full of people". The land can't be considered a "desolayion " until AFTER the city of Jerusalem is DESTROYED. In order for imabadboy to cnvince you he is rught he has to claim that Jerusalem was "DESOLATED " when the king of Babylon stole a few cups and trinkets from the temple.... Of course we all know that is NOT what "desolation " means. The Bible book of Chronicles CLEARLY confirms that Jeremiah was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem as the beginning of the 70 years of desolation which was the same period that the land would pay off its sabbaths: *** 2 Chr 36:20 He carried those who had escaped from the sword away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: *** 2 Chr 36:21 to fulfill the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. As long as it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. CLEARLY according to 2 Chr 36:20,21 Jeremiah's "70 years of servitude and desolation" began with the FINAL people to be taken to Babylon when the land was FINALLY completely desolated with the destruction of Jerusalem.  (Yesterday | post #242)

Jehovah's Witness

False religion is ALL religion.

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you. *** Acts 16:4-5 As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered the decrees to them to keep which had been ordained by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem. So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily. *** Acts 14:23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they had believed. *** 1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and in teaching.  (Yesterday | post #105)

Jehovah's Witness

False religion is ALL religion.

You obviously have never read the Bible. Jesus appointed the Apostles (a body) who governed over the building of the Christian congregation. They were based in Jerusalem. They appointed other elders to help them in that role. Israel was very much God's organization.The Christian congregation very much replaced Israel as God's organization. By denying these things you are denying the Bible and exposing the fact that you have not read it.  (Tuesday | post #70)

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