Health Care Debate - Peralta, NM

Discuss the national Health Care debate in Peralta, NM.

Do you support President Obama's health care policy?

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Since: Feb 09

Fort Huachuca, AZ

#1 Sep 28, 2009
The world isn't a perfect place and trying to make it perfect just won't work. Marx wanted it...Lenin tried it. Hitler opted for his own version of state run utopia based on Marx. IT JUST WON'T WORK.

Once upon a time in a land right here, hosptials were often run by churches or other charities. Well...that worked for a really long time, to the best of their abilities, but then came malpractice, the ACLU, etc. Once upon a time, doctor's a local practices where they knew each of their patients, the names of the family members, and made house calls. Well...then came luxury cars, big houses, golf clubs, etc. on top of malpractice insurance.

Now, not everyone could afford every type of health care, but that's ok. Not everyone can afford big houses, luxuray cars, membership in golf clubs, etc. THAT'S JUST THE WAY THAT THE WORLD WORKS AND ALL THE LEGISLATION IN THE WORLD WON'T CHANGE THAT.

Once upon a time, people worked hard for what they had...now, all they have to do is wait and eventually liberals will sell you on the notion that it's a 'right' and pass some legislation. And for those who refuse to support themselves or their families...they don't care. It's not coming out of their wallets as taxes.

We give to charities. We tithe at our local church. We volunteer to help those in need personally. WE DO NOT WANT GOVERNMENT GETTING EVER DEEPER INTO OUR LIVES. This government and the people elected to serve in it are supposed to work for me...not the other way around! And we are sick and tired of democrats thinking up some new scheme to save everyone and them putting their hands in my pockets to fund it. Make those who can work! Let those who can't afford health care work [if they don't already], make payments, go to a local charity. I've been there, took the help and am now the person the liberals think that they can now steal from. NO!
Common

Corpus Christi, TX

#2 Sep 28, 2009
You are so full of S*%!, You must get excited hearing your own voice, you were obviously raised with a silver spoon up your A$$. You don't know what real struggle is except for what you see on TV. If you really think that the right-wingers and not the Dem's are for the people your a lost cause. WAKE UP ! IDIOT!

Since: Feb 09

Fort Huachuca, AZ

#3 Sep 28, 2009
Common wrote:
You are so full of S*%!, You must get excited hearing your own voice, you were obviously raised with a silver spoon up your A$$. You don't know what real struggle is except for what you see on TV. If you really think that the right-wingers and not the Dem's are for the people your a lost cause. WAKE UP ! IDIOT!
You are obviously so poorly educated, even though our government has determined that taxpayers had to fund your free public education, that you can't even write coherently and the only adjectives that you seem to be familiar with are cuss words. So...if tax payers funded your 'right to education', why should they fund your 'right to health care'?

As for being raised with a silver spoon placed anywhere in my anatomy, you would be wrong. My family made do plenty of times of beans & rice, stuffed bell peppers, potato soup, and lots of other cheap but healthy foods because we were poor. The only new clothes we got were socks, underwear & shoes. The rest were hand-me-downs. The cars our parents drove were second hand cars that my dad could work on himself. If something broke at home, my dad didn't call a plumber or electrician because we couldn't afford it. We did without, we reused, we borrowed, or we used it until it literally couldn't be used any more. SO SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

You must be of the newer generation who feels entitled to whatever it is that they happen to want at the moment. The plastic generation that when something is perfect anymore, then throw it away and go buy a new one. Reality bites, and if I can help, that won't change. Because I'm not going to work hard just so someone like you can live off of my tax money instead of being responsible for themselves!
Common

Corpus Christi, TX

#4 Sep 28, 2009
To let you know where i'm coming from, I have a degree from the University of Memphis and I was in the Navy for 8 years. But the difference between me and you is that I do know what i'm talking about and who gives a F@*$ how you write on this forum the point is to be heard.THIS IS NOT ENGLISH CLASS YOU ASS! ADJECTIVES!!! IDIOT! The problem is you watch too much Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity. Next your going to tell me that Obama is a Racist and that he's seeking reparations. IDIOT! no wonder we can't come up with a solution because of knuckleheads like you.
Common

Kerrville, TX

#5 Sep 28, 2009
And another thing! you shouldn't have to make a certain income to receive Health Care. There are too many middle class families that don't have Health Care because it's too expensive. 14,000 Americans lose their Health Care everyday but the Insurance companies profits have gone up 400% in the last 3 years..HMMMM! what does that tell you? the average health care expense for a family of 4 was between $8,000 to $9,000 dollars in 2001 and now in 2009 it's between $18,000 to $19,000 a year. How much do you think it will be in 2020? HEALTH CARE IS A MORAL OBLIGATION! PERIOD!

Since: Feb 09

Fort Huachuca, AZ

#6 Sep 28, 2009
1. I have 2 degrees; 1 bachelor's and 1 master's. So what? Unless I have the work ethic to make use of them, the paper's worthless.

2. I've served my country for 15 years watching the bureaucrats make a mess of things, tying my hands after telling what job they want done. And it's not getting better, it's getting worse. Instead of learning from history, they keep insisting that this time everything is different and that these utopic ideas will work. What makes them so special? Einstein - insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. Or something like that.

3. What makes you think that you know anymore what you are talking about than anyone else? Do you even remember what this country was like under Jimmy Carter or what it took for Ronald Reagan to turn it around? Did you have a house mortgage at 21% interest? Has your menu ever consisted of what I ate as a child?

4. I've never watched Glenn Beck, listened to Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity. I read everything I can get my hands on & make my own decisions. I don't limit myself to what I want to hear or what floats my own personal boat. I want what's best for the country as a whole...not just what's best for me right now, today. I've learned the value of self-discipline, self-restraint, waiting for something instead of buying on credit. And this whole healthcarereform is buying on credit that our kids and grandkids will either have to pay, or allow whatever countries hold the notes to take over. Make sense Mr. Navy?

5. I have absolutely no idea if Obama is a racist & I haven't heard a thing about his seeking reparations for his Kenyan ancestors. His mother was white. Remember? His father wasn't even from here.

It's not that 'we' can't reach a solution...it's that I won't let anyone take any more of my hard earned money for something that is a proven failure.

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.
Common

Kerrville, TX

#7 Sep 28, 2009
The side that your on has no solution at ALL. In other words YOU CAN'T FIX THE PROBLEM WITH THE SAME THING THAT CREATED IT. And I really doubt the whole "never watched Glenn Beck thing" the way your talking. As far as Obama's plan not working, you have NO clue it won't work. This is the first time it would be tested if it did go through. And what is this give a man a fish crap, i don't need a metaphor. We need to help our fellow Ameicans who are dying because they don't have Health Care and can't afford their medications. One more thing, Mr. Degree, for all that knowledge you say you have. Your still blind to what the real problems are. Do me a favor and go to one of those free health clinics you see set up in one of these major cities and talk to some of the people there. See what they tell you, maybe you'll wake up one day.
Common

Kerrville, TX

#8 Sep 28, 2009
Oh Yeah! did you listen to that Ronald Reagan record on socializm? No wonder, that explains a lot. LOL!

Since: Feb 09

Fort Huachuca, AZ

#10 Sep 29, 2009
You're irrational & illogical. Trying being less emotional & more objective. At no time has anything that I've suggested even come close to being the creation of this problem. Frankly, I really don't care whether you believe that I"ve never listened to Glenn Beck. Did it ever occur to you that two people, reading the same news accounts, having similar thought processes could possible arrive at the same conclusions?

Obama is not the first political leader to come up with government run, government paid for health care.

Problem - Our doctor's offices & ERs are filled with illegals who flood them with colds, flus, etc. because they know that they don't have to pay.
Solution - Send them home.
How is that trying to fix the problem with the same thing that created it?

Problem - Our courts are flooded with stupid law suits by people who have already shown themselves to be irresponsible for their own health [smoking or driving with a cup of hot coffee between their legs], liars & greedy [by asking far more in civil suits than anyone with more than 2 brain cells & a sense of honesty would ever ask for].
Solution - Elect or appoint judges with more than 2 brain cells and with a sense of proportion & honesty that won't allow plaintiffs, their lawyers & juries to file, award stupid amounts of pain & suffering monies.
Effect - Lower malpractice insurance.
Effect - Lower health care rates for the sick.

It's not rocket science here. It's plain old cause & effect.

Not let's look at the plain old cause & effect of government run health care. Sweden is touted as having the best government run health care in the world by many. Swedish make on average [US dollars]$32,000 per year. How much did you pay in total taxes last year?
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Swe...
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Swe...

1. Rental Income as Capital Income Taxed 30%
2. Business Income Social Security Tax - 31%
3. Capital Gains Taxed 30%
4. Municipal Income Tax [employment & business incomes] averages 32%
5. Corporate Income Tax 28%
6. Corporate Capital Gains Taxed 28%
7. 1 or 2 family homes - Municipal Property Tax 0.75% of assed value or 641 Euros whichever is higher
8. Apartment buildings - Municipal Tax 128 euros or 0.5% of value or whichever is higher
9. State Real Estate Tax - 1% for commercial & 0.5% for industrial
10. 2002 Personal Income Tax - 31%- 56%
11. Health Tax - 1.5%

Problems with Sweden's Health Care System
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_H... - And this article is from 2007, way before the Obamination.
1. Single Payer System
A. Rations health care - waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery
i. Swedes without private insurance have to wait up to months for treatments, on average 3 months
B. Government determines how many patients private health care providers are allowed to have
Common

Corpus Christi, TX

#11 Sep 29, 2009
Health Care Reform Now!
You will be able to keep the health insurance that you have.
You will be able to purchase health insurance through a Health Insurance Exchange:
You will have a number of health plans from which to choose;
If you have limited income, you will receive assistance with the cost of the premium.
You have a pre-existing condition:
•Health insurance plans will not be able to deny you insurance;
•Health insurance plans will not be able to deny coverage of claims based on pre-existing conditions.
Health insurance plans will NOT be able to charge you higher premiums based on:
•Gender
•Health Status
There will be limits on out-of-pocket costs:
•No cost-sharing for preventive care;
•Annual out-of-pocket caps;
•No annual or lifetime limits on how much coverage your insurance will provide.
Mechanisms will be in place to help contain costs;
•A public health insurance option that competes with private plans will keep costs low as it encourages innovation and efficiency in health care.
•Other health system reforms, including a focus on prevention and coordination of health care, will help reduce costs.

Since: Feb 09

Fort Huachuca, AZ

#12 Sep 29, 2009
Average Tax Rates for average households earning national average wage 2005:
1. Belgium – 55.4%
2. Germany – 51.8%
3. France – 50.1%
4. Sweden – 47.9%
5. Austria - 47.4%
6. Italy – 45.4%
7. Finland – 44.6%
8. Denmark – 41.4%
9. Spain – 39%
10. Netherlands – 38.6%
11. Norway – 37.3%
12. United Kingdom – 33%
13. Canada – 31.6%

United States – 29.1%.
**********
Total tax wedge as % of labor costs for a SINGLE individual w/o children earning national average wage by country for 2008 [with 3 year change]:

1. Belgium – 56%[+0.6%]
2. Germany – 52%[+0.2%]
3. France – 49.3%[-0.8%]
4. Austria – 48.8%[+1.4%]
5. Italy – 46.5%[+1.1%]
6. Netherlands – 45%[+6.4%]
7. Sweden – 44.6%[-3.3%]
8. Finland – 43.5%[-1.1%]
9. Denmark – 41.2%[+0.2%]
10. Spain – 37.8%[-1.2%]
11. Norway – 37.7%[+0.4%]
12. United Kingdom – 32.8%[+7.3]
13. Canada – 31.3%[-0.3%]

United States – 30.1%[+1.0%]

**********
While many of these countries have better health care statistics like infant mortality rates, they also have problems like:

Proportion of public expenditure [how much did taxes pay for] in total healthcare expenditures in 2001:

1. Norway – 85.5%
2. Sweden – 85.2%
3. Denmark – 82.4%
4. United Kingdom – 82.2%
5. France – 76%
6. Italy – 75.3%
7. Germany – 74.9%
8. Spain – 71.4%
9. Canada – 70.8%
10. Netherlands – 63.3%

Unites States [Medicaid, Medicare, VA, etc.]– 44.4% This doesn’t even count the expenditures for illegal aliens who don’t pay taxes, but for which doctors & hospitals are going out of business.

**********
“Although they fail to record the best results for the health of their populations, health insurance systems give rise to higher total health expenditure”(Harvard University, 16/17 June 2006).

Public health expenditure as % of GDP in 2005 [rounded to the nearest 0.25%]:

1. Canada – 11.5
2. France – 10.75
3. Austria – 9.75
4. Belgium – 9.75
5. Netherlands – 9.5
6. Denmark – 9.5
7. Norway – 9.25
8. Germany – 9.0
9. Sweden – 8.5
10. Finland – 8.0
11. United Kingdom – 8.0
12. Spain – 7.75
13. Italy – 7.75

U.S. 6.2%[2001, Medicaid, Medicare, VA, etc.]. That will only go up under compulsory health care & the taxes will go up accordingly.

**********
Universal Health Care Countries 2007 – Fundamental Changes Needed (Toward Higher-Performance Health Systems: Adults’ Health Care Experiences in Seven Countries, 2007.)

1. Canada – 60%
2. United Kingdom – 57%
3. New Zealand – 56%
4. Australia – 55%
5. Germany – 51%
6. Netherlands – 51%
United States – 48%

Since: Feb 09

Fort Huachuca, AZ

#13 Sep 29, 2009
Universal Health Care Countries 2007 – Fundamental Changes Needed (Toward Higher-Performance Health Systems: Adults’ Health Care Experiences in Seven Countries, 2007.)

1. Canada – 60%
2. United Kingdom – 57%
3. New Zealand – 56%
4. Australia – 55%
5. Germany – 51%
6. Netherlands – 51%
United States – 48%

**********
2003 Life expectancy Rank in Universal Health Care Counties [28 total]] based on population statistics

1. Belgium – 8th (tie)
2. Germany – 3rd
3. France – 8th (tie)
4. Austria – 17th
5. Italy – 5th
6. Netherlands – 15th
7. Sweden – 6th
8. Finland – 13th
9. Denmark – 13th
10. Spain – 3rd
11. Norway – 12th
12. United Kingdom – 10th
13. Canada – 17th

**********
Rank 2002/2003 in Universal Health Care Counties [28 total]] based on mortality amenable to health care

1. Belgium – 12th
2. Germany – 12th
3. France – 1st
4. Austria – 11th
5. Italy – 5th
6. Netherlands – 8th
7. Sweden – 9th
8. Finland – 13th
9. Denmark – 15th
10. Spain – 4th
11. Norway – 7th
12. United Kingdom – 16th
13. Canada – 6th

**********
Rank 2002/2003 in Universal Health Care Counties [28 total]] based on overall performance

1. Belgium – 20th
2. Germany – 13th
3. France – 6th
4. Austria – 17th
5. Italy – 8th
6. Netherlands – 16th
7. Sweden – 3rd
8. Finland – 11thth
9. Denmark – 23rd
10. Spain – 15th
11. Norway – 10th
12. United Kingdom – 19th
13. Canada – 7th

Doesn’t seem proportional to the amount of money throw at it now does it?

**********
Universal Health Care Countries 2007 – Time waiting to be treated in ER 2 hours or more
1. Canada – 46%
2. Australia – 34%
3. United Kingdom – 32%
United States – 31%[and this is with all of the illegal aliens flooding into our ERs with their colds & flus, making American citizens wait]
4. New Zealand – 25%
5. Germany - 11%
6. Netherlands – 9%

**********
Universal Health Care Countries 2007 – Ability to get an appointment to see a doctor the same day
1. Germany – 55%
2. New Zealand – 53%
3. Netherlands – 49%
4. Australia – 42%
5. United Kingdom – 41%
United States – 30%[and this is with all of the illegal aliens flooding into our ERs with their colds & flus, making American citizens wait]
6. Canada – 22%

**********
Universal Health Care Countries 2007 – Wait for elective surgery in past 2 years of <1 month:

1. Germany – 72%
United States – 62%
2. Australia – 59%
3. New Zealand – 55%
4. Netherlands – 47%
5. United Kingdom – 40%
6. Canada – 32%

Since: Feb 09

Fort Huachuca, AZ

#14 Sep 29, 2009

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