Gun Laws Debate - Grand Rapids, MI

Discuss the national Gun Laws debate in Grand Rapids, MI.

Does the US need to reform its gun laws?

Grand Rapids thinks US gun laws are fine.
Not at all
 
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Yes
 
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Undecided
 
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ghostrider

Grand Rapids, MI

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#1
Jul 24, 2012
 
Of course they do. Time and again, even the proponents of these restrictions (and yes, they are most certainly unconstitutional) will admit that they do little to affect crime. Whenever/wherever they are loosened, there is no, "Blood in the Streets" crime wave as a result of, "more guns in society". Well over 300,000 people in Michigan alone are licensed to carry a concealed pistol, and it has not resulted in the doom and gloom predicted by those who decry the availability of guns.

Yet, whenever we have a tragedy (even thought there is no relation to the current gun laws) they come out and decry the availability of guns. Forget that it had nothing to do with that tragedy, but lets at least make the most out of the victims blood while it's still warm.
steve

Grand Rapids, MI

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#2
Aug 17, 2012
 
If anything they should relax the current laws.
Dr Comeandgetum

Grand Rapids, MI

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#3
Jan 1, 2013
 
No with two exceptions which shall include barring the private sales of firearms at gun shows and making the mental health records part of the NICS background check.
Bob

Big Rapids, MI

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#4
Jan 2, 2013
 
Until such time as the majority of responsible gun owners decide to take that resposibility seriously, little can get done.

Instead of licensing individual guns, we should need only to license individuals who wish to own these guns. The only two groups who shouldn't be allowed a license are those who have been convicted of a crime that causes them to lose that right, or the mentally unfit. It shouldn't be that big of a deal to setup a licensing procedure to accomplish this.

Then it would be the responsibility of either licensed dealers or individuals to insure that they have control over the weapons in their possession. The sale of all guns should be recorded to show that the person who takes ownership of any weapon is qualified to own it.

Finally, parolees should be subject to future searches as a part of their parole. The mentally unfit need to be supervised also. Penalties for illegal possession of any firearm should be much stiffer than they are now.
Law

United States

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#5
Jan 2, 2013
 
Dr Comeandgetum wrote:
No with two exceptions which shall include barring the private sales of firearms at gun shows and making the mental health records part of the NICS background check.
What is the difference of private sales of firearms at gun shows and those in a living room of a house? Save your exception.
Law

United States

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#6
Jan 2, 2013
 
Bob wrote:
Until such time as the majority of responsible gun owners decide to take that resposibility seriously, little can get done.
Instead of licensing individual guns, we should need only to license individuals who wish to own these guns.
Why? What woudl that accomplish? What other rights and liberties would YOU mandate required registration before exercising?
Bob wrote:
The only two groups who shouldn't be allowed a license are those who have been convicted of a crime that causes them to lose that right, or the mentally unfit.
Gee Bob, we already have laws on the books against that. And yet they still get their hands on guns. A lot of good a piece of paper will do.
Bob wrote:
It shouldn't be that big of a deal to setup a licensing procedure to accomplish this.
How do you figure that?
Bob wrote:
Then it would be the responsibility of either licensed dealers or individuals to insure that they have control over the weapons in their possession. The sale of all guns should be recorded to show that the person who takes ownership of any weapon is qualified to own it.
Utter BS!!! Why not put that same focus on other contrivances that can be used to injure or kill?
Bob wrote:
Finally, parolees should be subject to future searches as a part of their parole.
So you're okay with Double Jeopardy? You're really talking up a police state.
Bob wrote:
The mentally unfit need to be supervised also.
Really. And what do you propose there? Let me guess. "It shouldn't be that big of a deal to setup an oversight army to accomplish this."
Bob wrote:
Penalties for illegal possession of any firearm should be much stiffer than they are now.
Right Bob. Because criminals would suddenly obey the law.
Bob

Big Rapids, MI

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#7
Jan 2, 2013
 
Low, why don't you try for the very first time in your life to think outside of the box.

Everyone carries a driver's license as a piece of ID that allows you to legally buy a car, and if you are young enough proves to the bartender that you can have that drink. Some airlines now talk about being pre-screened for TSA purposes. If you want to travel out of the country, you even have a passport.

All I am saying is why not have a card that proves that you are cleared to purchase a weapon..... Without the mandatory waiting period, all of the paperwork with the endless questions. And, if you have that card, you'll avoid all the paperwork involved everytime you buy another gun, or ammo for that matter.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't take a little effort on your part to get the card, but you already have to go through the effort when you try to buy a gun..... Including the waiting period!

People selling guns or ammo would automatically know you were cleared to purchase, taking out much of the guesswork on their part.
Parolees? It's only double jepordy if you try to convict someone of the same crime twice. What I'm talking about is a condition of their parole being that they must be open to either a parole officer or some other official being able to check for guns in their homes.

The mentally unfit will most likely have had some sort of history, a history that would preclude them from being able to get that card. If the state actually gave a rat's ass about taking care of these people, it should be able to do.

So, one trip to get your ID card, no waiting periods, easy on the seller to identify qualfied customers, and some teeth put into getting guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.
St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#8
Jan 2, 2013
 
Law wrote:
<quoted text>
Why? What woudl that accomplish? What other rights and liberties would YOU mandate required registration before exercising?
<quoted text>
Gee Bob, we already have laws on the books against that. And yet they still get their hands on guns. A lot of good a piece of paper will do.
<quoted text>
How do you figure that?
<quoted text>
Utter BS!!! Why not put that same focus on other contrivances that can be used to injure or kill?
<quoted text>
So you're okay with Double Jeopardy? You're really talking up a police state.
<quoted text>
Really. And what do you propose there? Let me guess. "It shouldn't be that big of a deal to setup an oversight army to accomplish this."
<quoted text>Right Bob. Because criminals would suddenly obey the law.
We deal with many regulations as US citizens. Why not for a dangerous instrument that has caused so much pain and suffering?

Your world would consist of a Wild, Wild West mentality of arming every citizen with fully automatic machine guns and allowing them to bring them where ever they want.

Grow up. There are 311,591,917 people in the United States, give or take, almost ten times that were here in your wild west days. If you want to play cowboys and indians so much you're just going to have to fill out a few forms and go through a background check. If those who shouldn't have guns are found with them, they're going to the stockade where the law man will be swift and harsh. You wanna play? You pay.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

United States

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#9
Jan 2, 2013
 
St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
We deal with many regulations as US citizens. Why not for a dangerous instrument that has caused so much pain and suffering?
Your world would consist of a Wild, Wild West mentality of arming every citizen with fully automatic machine guns and allowing them to bring them where ever they want.
Grow up. There are 311,591,917 people in the United States, give or take, almost ten times that were here in your wild west days. If you want to play cowboys and indians so much you're just going to have to fill out a few forms and go through a background check. If those who shouldn't have guns are found with them, they're going to the stockade where the law man will be swift and harsh. You wanna play? You pay.
Many more are killed every year by Autos, hands and feet and knives...... Each......
St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#10
Jan 2, 2013
 
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Many more are killed every year by Autos, hands and feet and knives...... Each......
Define 'many'. 2011 saw 32,367 people die in auto accidents. In 2011 31,940 people died from a gun. That's a difference of 427. There are 254 million cars in the US and 70% of the population gets in one everyday. There are about the same amount of guns in the US and about 39% of US citizens (almost half of those who own cars) own guns but the question is--do they use them every day?

Cars have other intended uses, than just killing things. Cars are necessary in the post WWII suburban sprawl we have created. People need cars to go to work, people need cars to get food and shuttle their chidren around. Every time someone gets in a car they are accepting the risks involved. It takes a lot of courage to back out of the driveway each morning.

Guns on the other hand are not necessary for day-to-day life. You may think they are but in actuality most people never fire their guns in self defense and certainly not on a daily basis. So on a statistical basis there is no comparison between the safety of guns and cars.

As far as knives go? Well there are typically less that 2,000 deaths in the US caused by knives per year. I'm not sure of your education background or what math skills you possess but 2,000 is not > 31,940.
Dr Comeandgetum

Grand Rapids, MI

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#12
Jan 2, 2013
 
Law wrote:
<quoted text>What is the difference of private sales of firearms at gun shows and those in a living room of a house? Save your exception.
The difference is that ending private sales at gun shows will pacify gun grabbing morons. It obviously doesn't end private sales in living rooms. It's all politics...all the time.
yup

Muskegon, MI

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#13
Jan 2, 2013
 
St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
Define 'many'. 2011 saw 32,367 people die in auto accidents. In 2011 31,940 people died from a gun. That's a difference of 427.
So are you saying that the 20k suicides wouldn't happen if there were no guns or stricter laws on guns? how about the 11k homicides would they not happen if there were no guns or stricter laws on guns? care to take a stab at how many of the 11k homicides were criminal on criminal?

In 2011, the latest figure available from the Centers for Disease Control,

Accidental discharge 851
Suicide 19,766
Homicide 11,101
Undetermined Intent 222

"Guns on the other hand are not necessary for day-to-day life. You may think they are but in actuality most people never fire their guns in self defense and certainly not on a daily basis. So on a statistical basis there is no comparison between the safety of guns and cars."

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.ht...

from the link....

"There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.

There is one study, the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which in 1993, estimated 108,000 DGU's annually."

Even using the lowest number of 100K defensive gun uses per year it is obvious that guns are used many many times per year for defense. If one of those instances involved your family i am guessing you wouldn't be so quick to restrict gun rights.
Law

United States

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#14
Jan 2, 2013
 
Bob wrote:
Low, why don't you try for the very first time in your life to think outside of the box.
Bob, why don't you pull your head out and wake up to reality.
Bob wrote:
Everyone carries a driver's license as a piece of ID that allows you to legally buy a car,
[/QUOTE}
BS!!! Most states do NOT require an operator's license to purchas a car! Do you want to regulate guns like cars?
[QUOTE who="Bob"]and if you are young enough proves to the bartender that you can have that drink.
Young enough? How about old enough. So you think the purpose of an operaor's license is to allow for purchase of alcohol as well as operating a motor vehicle? Damn, you're clueless!
Bob wrote:
Some airlines now talk about being pre-screened for TSA purposes. If you want to travel out of the country, you even have a passport.
No, you are required to have a passport to enter another country.
Bob wrote:
All I am saying is why not have a card that proves that you are cleared to purchase a weapon..... Without the mandatory waiting period, all of the paperwork with the endless questions.
Why? Why do I have to prove anything to exercise a Constitutionally protected right?Are you a big fan of prior restraint?
Bob wrote:
And, if you have that card, you'll avoid all the paperwork involved everytime you buy another gun, or ammo for that matter.
No it wouldn't. That paper is no guarantee I haven't broken the law since receiving that card. The card is only a summation of my criminal record at the time the card was issued.
The 2nd Amendment makes no mention of cards, either.
Bob wrote:
I'm not saying that it wouldn't take a little effort on your part to get the card, but you already have to go through the effort when you try to buy a gun..... Including the waiting period!
No I don't. I just bought 2 with no wait. From the time I told the clerk "I'll take it" it took 10 minutes to run my name through the NICS system and put it in the sack for me.
Bob wrote:
People selling guns or ammo would automatically know you were cleared to purchase, taking out much of the guesswork on their part.
What difference does that make?
Bob wrote:
Parolees? It's only double jepordy if you try to convict someone of the same crime twice. What I'm talking about is a condition of their parole being that they must be open to either a parole officer or some other official being able to check for guns in their homes.
First, not everyone loses their rights to a firearm when they are convicted and later parolled. Second, what you're advocating is a violation of the 4th Amendment.
Bob wrote:
The mentally unfit will most likely have had some sort of history, a history that would preclude them from being able to get that card.
No, that would be stopped at point of purchase by NICS.
Bob wrote:
If the state actually gave a rat's ass about taking care of these people, it should be able to do.
Oh, so putting more burden on the majority for the misdeeds of a statistical minority is the way liberty is supposed to work?
Bob wrote:
So, one trip to get your ID card, no waiting periods, easy on the seller to identify qualfied customers, and some teeth put into getting guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.
No proof to back up that assertion. Or is it your notion that the black market can be regulated as well?
Law

United States

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#15
Jan 2, 2013
 
St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
We deal with many regulations as US citizens. Why not for a dangerous instrument that has caused so much pain and suffering?
Huh? A gun has done that? No, criminals and peopel with a reckless disregard for life have caused pain and suffering. That you focus in on the inanimate object instead of the perpetrator that has opted to break the law is quite telling.
St Stephen wrote:
Your world would consist of a Wild, Wild West mentality of arming every citizen with fully automatic machine guns and allowing them to bring them where ever they want.
First, the Wild West really wasn't that wild. You watch too many Hollywood movies (no surprise there).
Second, who said anything about "arming every citizen with fully automatic machine guns"?
You did. Once again, displaying an inculcated ignorance.(no surprise there).
When was the last time you read or heard of a homicide that took place with a full-auto? Will you be telling is soon? REAL soon?
You obviously don't know what it takes to get a full-auto.(no surprise there)
St Stephen wrote:
Grow up. There are 311,591,917 people in the United States, give or take, almost ten times that were here in your wild west days.
You grow up. You're still displaying a childish belief in wild west. You must have been raised by televison instead of parents.
And there are at least ten times as mnay criminals on the street as well. But that doesn't matter to you.
St Stephen wrote:
If you want to play cowboys and indians so much you're just going to have to fill out a few forms and go through a background check.
So a woman who has to walk through a dimly lit parking lot to her car is morally superior if she gives in to the whims of her attacker/rapist rather than standing over the perp and explaining to the law enforcement officers how that bullet hole came to be in his chest. According to you, if she's the latter, she must be a cowboy or indian. Aren' you the noble one.
The background check is enough.
St Stephen wrote:
If those who shouldn't have guns are found with them, they're going to the stockade where the law man will be swift and harsh. You wanna play? You pay.
Right. Because criminals ALWAYS obey laws and they never get out of prison. You're a hoot.
Law

United States

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#16
Jan 2, 2013
 
Dr Comeandgetum wrote:
<quoted text>The difference is that ending private sales at gun shows will pacify gun grabbing morons. It obviously doesn't end private sales in living rooms. It's all politics...all the time.
Indeed. But don't try to reason with those hanky-twisting bed wetters.
Law

United States

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#17
Jan 2, 2013
 
St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
Define 'many'. 2011 saw 32,367 people die in auto accidents. In 2011 31,940 people died from a gun. That's a difference of 427.
Half were suicides. Do you want to include injuries in the mix?
St Stephen wrote:
There are 254 million cars in the US and 70% of the population gets in one everyday. There are about the same amount of guns in the US and about 39% of US citizens (almost half of those who own cars) own guns but the question is--do they use them every day?
Please include a credible cite to back up your numbers.
St Stephen wrote:
Cars have other intended uses, than just killing things. Cars are necessary in the post WWII suburban sprawl we have created.
No, mass transit works for many.
St Stephen wrote:
People need cars to go to work, people need cars to get food and shuttle their chidren around.
Not all.
St Stephen wrote:
Every time someone gets in a car they are accepting the risks involved. It takes a lot of courage to back out of the driveway each morning.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! !!!!!
Does it take courage to start texting? Putting on makeup? Fumbling with the CD player? Talking on the phone? Engaging in conversations with 3 other people in the car? Getting pissed at the driver that cut them off?
Yeah, that takes courage.
Is that why the vast majority of collisons are caused by neglect, carelessness, and outright rage?
St Stephen wrote:
Guns on the other hand are not necessary for day-to-day life.
According to you, that is.
St Stephen wrote:
You may think they are but in actuality most people never fire their guns in self defense and certainly not on a daily basis.
Most people never use that kitchen fire extinguisher or that 2nd floor escape ladder.
St Stephen wrote:
So on a statistical basis there is no comparison between the safety of guns and cars.
Really? There are far more things that can and do fail on cars than with guns.
St Stephen wrote:
As far as knives go? Well there are typically less that 2,000 deaths in the US caused by knives per year.
I see. So only gun deaths matter to you.
St Stephen wrote:
I'm not sure of your education background or what math skills you possess but 2,000 is not > 31,940.
Your education is lacking as well.
Now, let's talk about annual defensive gun uses, shall we?
Dr Comeandgetum

Grand Rapids, MI

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#18
Jan 2, 2013
 
Law wrote:
<quoted text>Indeed. But don't try to reason with those hanky-twisting bed wetters.
I know full well! Trying to reason with liberals (especially on this issue) is like talking to my son's pet turtle. It will sit there and stare at me with a blank look on its face or hide its head in the shell. But, who knows what it's plotting while hiding in there?
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Pinckney, MI

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#20
Jan 3, 2013
 
St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
Define 'many'. 2011 saw 32,367 people die in auto accidents. In 2011 31,940 people died from a gun. That's a difference of 427. There are 254 million cars in the US and 70% of the population gets in one everyday. There are about the same amount of guns in the US and about 39% of US citizens (almost half of those who own cars) own guns but the question is--do they use them every day?
Cars have other intended uses, than just killing things. Cars are necessary in the post WWII suburban sprawl we have created. People need cars to go to work, people need cars to get food and shuttle their chidren around. Every time someone gets in a car they are accepting the risks involved. It takes a lot of courage to back out of the driveway each morning.
Guns on the other hand are not necessary for day-to-day life. You may think they are but in actuality most people never fire their guns in self defense and certainly not on a daily basis. So on a statistical basis there is no comparison between the safety of guns and cars.
As far as knives go? Well there are typically less that 2,000 deaths in the US caused by knives per year. I'm not sure of your education background or what math skills you possess but 2,000 is not > 31,940.
God are you stupid...... How do you function in society.. My education is in Criminal Justice and your sources are lazy. Why do you even wake up in the morning?
Just The Facts Mam

Fort Myers, FL

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#21
Jan 3, 2013
 
more facts

Spring Lake, MI

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#22
Jan 3, 2013
 
http://nation.foxnews.com/gun-rights/2013/01/...

Is this yet another inconvenient truth?

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