Gun Laws Debate - Chambersburg, PA

Discuss the national Gun Laws debate in Chambersburg, PA.

Does the US need to reform its gun laws?

Chambersburg thinks we need reform.
Yes
 
62
Not at all
 
45
Undecided
 
0

Vote now in Chambersburg:

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#1067 Jan 2, 2013
Jimmy wrote:
<quoted text>
Denmark proves you wrong. Lowest firearm fatality rate. Suicide rate still equal to U.S.
Sorry, it's just not that simple. Without the easy availability of guns and the resulting extraordinarily high number of suicides by gun in the US, it's possible the US suicide rate would drop.

IOW - the US suicide rate may be artificially high because of the high success rate with guns and the high availability of guns.

Drawing the conclusion you have from one statistic alone isn't proof.
Jimmy

Charlotte, NC

#1068 Jan 2, 2013
Dan the Man Chambersburg wrote:
<quoted text>
More guns equals more suicide by guns. That fact has been unambiguously confirmed in study after study.
Guns don't cause people to commit suicide. But those who use guns succeed at significantly higher rates than those using other means.
Denmark proves that wrong. Less guns, same amount of suicides. This is what the Economist study did. They pulled numbers out and then checked how it affected the rate per capita. That's all I've done.

When I looked at our suicide rates and they compared well to the Denmark suicide rates, I looked at the gun ownership rates. Turns out, we have @ 8 times the gun ownership rates with a basically equal suicide rate. Therefore, the guns are irrelevant in suicide. Same thing the Economist study did.

Finally, when I pull the suicide numbers out of the overall gun death numbers(because they're irrelevant), I checked to see how we compared and ranked.

All standard study techniques.

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#1069 Jan 2, 2013
Jimmy wrote:
<quoted text>
Denmark proves that wrong. Less guns, same amount of suicides. This is what the Economist study did. They pulled numbers out and then checked how it affected the rate per capita. That's all I've done.
When I looked at our suicide rates and they compared well to the Denmark suicide rates, I looked at the gun ownership rates. Turns out, we have @ 8 times the gun ownership rates with a basically equal suicide rate. Therefore, the guns are irrelevant in suicide. Same thing the Economist study did.
Finally, when I pull the suicide numbers out of the overall gun death numbers(because they're irrelevant), I checked to see how we compared and ranked.
All standard study techniques.
Again, there's no way of knowing what the US suicide rate would be without guns.

It's been shown that people who attempt suicide with guns succeed over 90% of the time. And that 50% of suicides are by gun. And that 80% of suicides are impulsive.

Given these facts, if you take guns out of the picture, the US suicide rate would undoubtedly drop.

IOW - Denmark's suicide rate is likely much higher than the US's, but our rate is inflated due to the availability of guns.
Anonymous

Scottsdale, AZ

#1070 Jan 2, 2013
I am an American. As such, none of my rights depend on a showing of need. I am a free man who has the right to define and pursue my happiness in any peaceful way I see fit. The government does not grant me rights. I was born free. The legitimate role of government is to act as my agent to protect my rights; which exist independent of government. Americans do not beg the government for rights nor are they required to demonstrate a "need" for rights.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/victor7.1.1....
Jimmy

Charlotte, NC

#1071 Jan 2, 2013
Dan the Man Chambersburg wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, there's no way of knowing what the US suicide rate would be without guns.
It's been shown that people who attempt suicide with guns succeed over 90% of the time. And that 50% of suicides are by gun. And that 80% of suicides are impulsive.
Given these facts, if you take guns out of the picture, the US suicide rate would undoubtedly drop.
IOW - Denmark's suicide rate is likely much higher than the US's, but our rate is inflated due to the availability of guns.
So if I follow, you argue that less guns=less suicide? Furthermore you feel that Denmark probably has a higher suicide rate than the US? Also, you think that the suicide rate in the US would drop significantly?

All of this without considering that Denmark is a snapshot of the US with a reduced gun ownership percentage and a more liberal government?

In summary, you argue that even with more gun control and a more liberal government, Denmark still has a higher suicide rate than the US.
Dave Rogers

Chambersburg, PA

#1072 Jan 2, 2013
AttorneyForFreedom wrote:
I am an American. As such, none of my rights depend on a showing of need. I am a free man who has the right to define and pursue my happiness in any peaceful way I see fit. The government does not grant me rights. I was born free. The legitimate role of government is to act as my agent to protect my rights; which exist independent of government. Americans do not beg the government for rights nor are they required to demonstrate a "need" for rights.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/victor7.1.1....
What do ya call 5,000 attorneys at the bottom of the ocean?........

wait for it..........

a good start..... ha ha ha ha ha ha

Since: Oct 12

West Mifflin, Pa

#1073 Jan 2, 2013
bobby6464 wrote:
Nerd boy, you think there should be no restrictions on any one who wants a gun, huh?
We need tough gun laws to keep drunken idiots like you from obtaining BB guns.

Since: Oct 12

West Mifflin, Pa

#1074 Jan 2, 2013
bobby6464 wrote:
Nerd boy, if you was serious about background checks and mental health evaluation before gun ownership then whats the problem? I believe that not every one has a right to own a gun. My friend has 45 he claims is home protection but if his child finds it and shoots his little brother I want him in jail a very long time charged with murder. You want a gun then take a hunter gun safety course and renew it every year at your expense, just like my uncle who happens to be a police officer here in Chambersburg
BLAH BLAH BLAH..pass me another ripple.

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#1075 Jan 2, 2013
Jimmy wrote:
<quoted text>
So if I follow, you argue that less guns=less suicide? Furthermore you feel that Denmark probably has a higher suicide rate than the US? Also, you think that the suicide rate in the US would drop significantly?
You got it.
Jimmy wrote:
All of this without considering that Denmark is a snapshot of the US with a reduced gun ownership percentage and a more liberal government?
In summary, you argue that even with more gun control and a more liberal government, Denmark still has a higher suicide rate than the US.
No. There are many, many more differences between Denmark and the US than those two things.

There is a lot of research on the high suicide rates in Scandinavian countries. You're making the claim that reduced gun ownership and a more liberal government are the only two factors to consider when looking at suicide rates, as if nothing else could possibly cause a difference in the suicide rates between the two countries.
Law

Papillion, NE

#1076 Jan 2, 2013
Marvelous Marvin wrote:
<quoted text>
Ineffective, ok.- So you don't oppose them?
If someone wants to get $100 from turning their weapon in for $100, that's their business. When they take that $100 and buy two $50 gun off the black market we can see how ineffective gun buyback programs are.
Especially when there are "no questions asked" with respect to any serial numners.
What better way for a thug to get rid of a "hot" weapon and buy 2 clean ones.
Law

Papillion, NE

#1077 Jan 2, 2013
"Clips"? Christ on a Cracker, the ignorance is astounding.
Law

Papillion, NE

#1078 Jan 2, 2013
Dan the Man Chambersburg wrote:
<quoted text>
More guns equals more suicide by guns. That fact has been unambiguously confirmed in study after study.
Guns don't cause people to commit suicide. But those who use guns succeed at significantly higher rates than those using other means.
Peopel that are of a mind to kill themselves by any means whatsoever.
My uncle had access to 3 guns but opted to hang himself. And I'm sure he isn't the only one to have made an alternate choice.

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#1079 Jan 2, 2013
Law wrote:
<quoted text>Peopel that are of a mind to kill themselves by any means whatsoever.
My uncle had access to 3 guns but opted to hang himself. And I'm sure he isn't the only one to have made an alternate choice.
80% of suicides are impulsive. Without easy access to a means, most will end up letting the impulse pass. Your uncle was obviously in the 20%, so generalizing from his situation to suicides at large is a mistake.
Law

Papillion, NE

#1080 Jan 2, 2013
Dan the Man Chambersburg wrote:
<quoted text>
80% of suicides are impulsive. Without easy access to a means, most will end up letting the impulse pass.
No proof to back up your assertion? And you're assuming that just because a gun isn't handy, a rope, knife, 4th story window, medicine cabinet full of prescription and OTC drugs, automobile spewing CO fumes, etc. aren't also in that same place.
St Stephen wrote:
Your uncle was obviously in the 20%, so generalizing from his situation to suicides at large is a mistake.
So is your lack of a credible cite.
DGS

Fayetteville, PA

#1081 Jan 2, 2013
Nerd Rage wrote:
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson
And I own slaves and I believe that only white landed individuals should be permitted to vote and women are completely subservient to men and blacks are only worth 3/5 of a human being. Sorry, but what happened and what we might have thought that individuals meant 250 years ago bears no relevance to what is appropriate today. Times, laws, and interpretation of laws change.
Law

Papillion, NE

#1083 Jan 2, 2013
Dan the Man Chambersburg wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you assume I have no proof? I don't just make shit up. I can always back up what I post with evidence.
----------
...research by Frierson and SB Lippman1 on survivors of attempted firearm suicides in the US suggested that 80% of attempts were not pre-meditated (meaning they were generally done on impulse, rather than having been thought through and planned in advance).
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/firear...
<quoted text>
Do you have a credible source you can cite for this level of assumed clear thinking by a desperate person?
I never asserted as much. That you can't post cites at the time you make a post says a lot. But you offer nothing that says the sucidal people don't seek out other means if their primary choice is not available.

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#1084 Jan 2, 2013
Law wrote:
That you can't post cites at the time you make a post says a lot.
LOL! "Can't?" Hardly.

There's no reason to cite sources for everything I say. Nobody does that - including you. Setting that meaningless metric as the standard for my credibility says a lot about how much confidence you have in the case you're trying to make.
Law wrote:
But you offer nothing that says the sucidal people don't seek out other means if their primary choice is not available.
You offer nothing saying that they do seek out other means. You made that assertion and I challenged you to back it up. I see that you can't.
Law

Papillion, NE

#1085 Jan 2, 2013
Dan the Man Chambersburg wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL! "Can't?" Hardly.
There's no reason to cite sources for everything I say. Nobody does that - including you. Setting that meaningless metric as the standard for my credibility says a lot about how much confidence you have in the case you're trying to make.
<quoted text>
You offer nothing saying that they do seek out other means. You made that assertion and I challenged you to back it up. I see that you can't.
So it's your assertion that suicidal people only take their lives by the first choice they make but if not available, they don't commit suicide?
Joseph

Chambersburg, PA

#1086 Jan 3, 2013
Law wrote:
<quoted text>Peopel that are of a mind to kill themselves by any means whatsoever.
My uncle had access to 3 guns but opted to hang himself. And I'm sure he isn't the only one to have made an alternate choice.
what's the chance you follow his example?
Nerd Rage

Chambersburg, PA

#1087 Jan 3, 2013
bobby6464 wrote:
Nerd boy, if you was serious about background checks and mental health evaluation before gun ownership then whats the problem? I believe that not every one has a right to own a gun. My friend has 45 he claims is home protection but if his child finds it and shoots his little brother I want him in jail a very long time charged with murder. You want a gun then take a hunter gun safety course and renew it every year at your expense, just like my uncle who happens to be a police officer here in Portland Oregon
I don't agree with that but if someone wants to take a course on gun safety then they should do so. Background checks for everyone and mental health clearance for those who may be on drugs that are used to stable their mental health or impair their judgment and I'm not talking about someone who is on pain pills because they had surgery I'm talking about people who are on prescription drugs for chronic depression, Schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, anger/anxiety drugs ect.ect. Also for people to take this gun safety course, it seems as if you’re addressing lawful citizens and not criminals. I also think that someone who commits a crime with a gun should do a minimal mandatory 5 year jail time.

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