Ferguson Debate - Willingboro, NJ

Discuss the national Ferguson debate in Willingboro, NJ.

Who do you side with in the Ferguson, MO situation?

Willingboro sides with the police
The Police
 
23
The Protestors
 
15

Vote now in Willingboro:

The Man

Merchantville, NJ

#21 Aug 24, 2014
If after the struggle at the car and Brown ran away. What if he ran back towards the cop? After he tried to take his gun? Would the cop be in reasonable fear of great bodily harm?

Since: Apr 12

United States

#22 Aug 24, 2014
The Man wrote:
If after the struggle at the car and Brown ran away. What if he ran back towards the cop? After he tried to take his gun? Would the cop be in reasonable fear of great bodily harm?

Duh of course he'd have fear of bodily harm reasonable or not... but he's a cop. He's trained to handle worst case scenarios and work past his own fear in order to try and keep rational and make the right choices. I'd understand if he was just some civilian who happened to have a gun license, or even a total noob to the force with little to no experience with high stress situations like what happened... but I expect much better from trained officers... but then that's my problem. I have such little faith in people... I guess I really can't be shocked that he doesn't meet such expectations... I guess I was just trying to hold onto the delusion that there was at least one group of people I could trust to do their job properly... do if I can't trust cops to apply their training properly then I really can't trust anyone... oh well...
The Man

Merchantville, NJ

#23 Aug 24, 2014
"Duh of course he'd have fear of bodily harm reasonable or not"
Well watch this it was taken just after the shooting.

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#24 Aug 24, 2014
NSNovum wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, I think it's bigger then this one issue and a lot of news articles and news feeds are showing something is up with the police department there. This was bound to happen it seems.
Issues somewhat similar to, though not quite as severe as, what happened to Brown have been happening rather consistently in the Ferguson area for quite some time... Situations where the police have been considered unnecessarily forceful against people of color, have come up there many times... for example...remember like 4-5 years ago the guy who got arrested because his named matched someone else who had a warrant for arrest, and was brought in and for some reason beaten horribly, eventually they realised they had the wrong guy and let him go to the hospital....and after he got out of the hospital he faced charges for damages to the police department property due to his struggle when he was being beaten... including the costs of uniforms he'd bled on... And just in general there's been an overbearing feeling that the police were more intense towards people of color there... I think this article explains it well enough I just found it to save myself the trouble of typing everything myself...: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/even-b...

In other words the whole protest isn't just about this one incident... this incident was the straw that broke the camels back. It was certainly bound to happen one way or another.

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#25 Aug 24, 2014
The Man wrote:
"Duh of course he'd have fear of bodily harm reasonable or not"
Well watch this it was taken just after the shooting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =0mAaJMBxKA4XX
Doesn't that just prove my point?
The Man

Merchantville, NJ

#26 Aug 24, 2014
Not at all. The eyewitness clearly states the kid came back towards the cop. After he had assaulted him and probably tried to take his gun.
I would say the cop was in fear of great bodily harm from this 300lb "youth"
If that is how it happened I would say it was a justifiable shooting. It was hours if not days later all the stories about him having his hands up came out. I would tend to believe the stories of witnesses right after the shooting along with forensic evidence that backs it up.
I see good old Al Sharpton is on the case.
Why not ask him about Twana Brawley?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Brawley_r...

Or how about Chrystal Magnum?
http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/flashback-sha...
Or a very telling photographs.
http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_image_...
The Man

Merchantville, NJ

#27 Aug 24, 2014
Also, looking at his priors and what transpired in the store right before the shooting.
It doesn't paint a very good picture of him does it? Yes his friends all call him a "gentle giant" but both his record and the video from the store show a violence prone individual.
Who was it walking down the middle of the street that initiated police contact?
Who assaulted a police officer?
Who just committed a strong arm robbery?
Who has a prior record of committing crimes using force/violence?
Who set the ball in motion that ended in this shooting?

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#28 Aug 24, 2014
It does prove my point on different witnesses seeing different things... and the uncertainty of it all...did you hear how many times the dude with the camera said "I don't know"? Did you hear the people in the background asking why they shot so many times? witnesses see different things from different angles. Besides, just about all of the witness accounts said he started moving toward the police again... and many say his hands were up, while others take no notice of his hands positioning, although the autopsy report on the trajectory of a bullet that went through his hand does support the idea of the hand being up... for whatever reason whether it was the surrender pose or a pumping arms to run kind of position... we don't know because we weren't there... and witnesses don't even know for sure, because they are not Michael Brown...

And once again his weight is brought into this... I'm fairly tall for a woman, and I weigh quite a bit myself... and I have the intimidation capability of a wet kitten. And besides that, police officers are supposed to be trained to handle opponents smartly... What they may lack in height and inferred strength based on weight... they make up for with training, knowledge, and all of those nice little toys that they get meant to disarm and distract their opponents, like pepper spray and tasers... I mean do they even carry those anymore? Or were they put away to make room for more guns on their wastes.

Oh and I know this response is coming:

"oh so you expect them to further endanger themselves with non-lethal tactics that may not fully incapacitate this "juggernaut" coming towards them?"

YES!!! They are trained to be able to handle themselves. They know fully what kinds of situations they can face when they sign up for this job. We pay them to put themselves in harms way in order to protect us! From the moment they step out the door in that uniform they're in danger of extreme bodily harm, even death! My friend is training to be cop now and he says that his division practices combat skills and tactics meant for taking down larger, stronger enemies and while I wouldn't know if Ferguson police go through the same kinds of training as other departments I'd expect there'd be some similar thought to it. Most importantly, they always have back-up... It's not like he was alone with no one watching his back. Most officers often have a partner in the car with them... safety in numbers, buddy system... whatever.

Now... you want to focus on facts? Here is a fact... an unarmed man, was left lying on the ground, uncovered, for a decent amount of time, after taking 3-4 bullets to one arm and 2 bullets to his skull. There is no denying that part and that, especially, is the part people are having problems with. I know that's the part I can't understand.

Now this is just my opinion as an untrained civilian... There is no excuse for firing up to 10 bullets at an unarmed man... 1 or 2.... maybe 3 tops... but about 10 shots with 6 actually making it into his body... 2 of which in his skull?! Those 3 -4 shots in his arm, those would have been acceptable, if he was still moving well enough to be a threat after that, sure... go ahead and bust his knee or something to stop him. Kill shots on an unarmed opponent had better be a last resort against someone who was apparently some kind of zombie juggernaut unaffected by literally everything else in the "non-lethal" arsenal that I expect properly equipped officers to have.

But once again... I shouldn't hold the police to standards like that... they can't be trusted to hold to them... because in today's worlds "serve and protect" has become "kill or be killed". They were meant to be our shield but they're just as scared, if not more so than we are... can't fault them on that... I talk about all of that training, but when faced with the real thing, it happens so fast training basically flies out the window for some people... Why should they be any different?

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#29 Aug 25, 2014
Oh and Twana Brawley... really? LOL Your debating skills need some help... or perhaps I'm just not understanding your angle...you respond to me giving a thought out spiel on the uncertainty of witness accounts with posts about past events where the black community got riled up on accusations and later learned that the accusing parties were either lying or just wrong... as if that's somehow refuting my belief that witness accounts are uncertain... or are you trying to say that black witnesses will all band together and make one big lie, or something along those lines, thus showing that those many accounts of Brown showing what looked like a sign of surrender are simply collaborated fabrications of instigators...

or maybe you're just desperate and I'm just reading too much into you because I've been up for the past 42 hours due to insomnia and as I do not yet feel the arms of Morpheus wrapping around me I instead feel my own desperate need to keep my brain functioning by constantly researching random things about the world I am forced to interact with, practicing other languages, and for the moment arguing with you... the third of which is serving no proper purpose, as neither of us are willing to yield on our opinions and I'm slowly sinking into a deep depression over how I can never have any faith in the humans of this world beyond myself and my family...

Ooh random fun facts, a shrimps heart is in its head... and a pregnant goldfish is called a "twit" lol

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#30 Aug 25, 2014
The Man wrote:
Also, looking at his priors and what transpired in the store right before the shooting.
It doesn't paint a very good picture of him does it? Yes his friends all call him a "gentle giant" but both his record and the video from the store show a violence prone individual.
Who was it walking down the middle of the street that initiated police contact?
Who assaulted a police officer?
Who just committed a strong arm robbery?
Who has a prior record of committing crimes using force/violence?
Who set the ball in motion that ended in this shooting?
So in other words.. "Well, he started it!" Are you five?
The Man

Merchantville, NJ

#31 Aug 25, 2014
"Oh and Twana Brawley... really? LOL Your debating skills need some help... or perhaps I'm just not understanding your angle..."
First and foremost very few verifiable facts are available about the Michael Brown case at this point. Most is pure speculation at this point. With the exception of the story of Brown being shot in the back. The autopsy disproved that tale.
Yes Twana Brawley and Crystal Magnum are very relevant to this discussion. They both were involved in massive lies about abuse and racism at the hands of Whites. Both their stories were quickly debunked. I have a feeling we are headed down the same road with the Brown case.
The 6'4" 300lb. Brown has shown a propensity for felony violence twice before, what on earth makes people think in the short walk from the store were he committed a felony robbery he redeemed himself?
Here is what I THINK happened. Again it is pure speculation at this time.
After committing a strong arm robbery at the store, Brown and his friend were swaggering down the middle of the street. The cop drove up behind the two unaware of the robbery they had just committed. He yells at them to get out of the street. Words are exchanged, the cop gets out of his car. Brown thinks maybe the cop knows about the robbery he just did. Brown pushes the cop back into his car punches the cop and a struggle ensues over the cops gun. It isn't known if the cop pulled his gun first and Brown grabbed for it. Or Brown grabbed for the gun while it was still holstered. The gun fires once, possibly striking Brown. Brown and his friend start running. Brown at 300lbs. can't run fast or long. The cop gives chase ordering them to freeze. Brown stops, turns around and starts taunting the cop. He realizes he is know in big trouble. He charges at the cop. The cop fires in self defense until Brown stops. It takes 5-6 shots for Brown to stop. The last shot to the head is the only fatal shot. He may have been in pain from the other shots. But he wasn't disabled.

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#32 Aug 25, 2014
The Man wrote:
Here is what I THINK happened. Again it is pure speculation at this time.
After committing a strong arm robbery at the store, Brown and his friend were swaggering down the middle of the street. The cop drove up behind the two unaware of the robbery they had just committed. He yells at them to get out of the street. Words are exchanged, the cop gets out of his car. Brown thinks maybe the cop knows about the robbery he just did. Brown pushes the cop back into his car punches the cop and a struggle ensues over the cops gun. It isn't known if the cop pulled his gun first and Brown grabbed for it. Or Brown grabbed for the gun while it was still holstered. The gun fires once, possibly striking Brown. Brown and his friend start running. Brown at 300lbs. can't run fast or long. The cop gives chase ordering them to freeze. Brown stops, turns around and starts taunting the cop. He realizes he is know in big trouble. He charges at the cop. The cop fires in self defense until Brown stops. It takes 5-6 shots for Brown to stop. The last shot to the head is the only fatal shot. He may have been in pain from the other shots. But he wasn't disabled.
Oh so your going with the "zombie juggernaut" idea. Now,please pay attention to what I say. I know in your twisted pov I'm somehow blindly supporting Michael Brown like he was just some innocent kid who never did anything wrong, even though i said already, that he was not... just because I believe he still had potential for a positive change in his future, doesn't mean I am completely opposite of you on that part... the kid had clearly been trouble before, and had some problems... Now, I definitely wouldn't have bat an eyelash if the cops had left it at disabling him with a couple shots to the arms or legs, or used tasers or pepper spray in an effort to detain him... I already said I am not moving on my opinion that 2 head shots to an unarmed opponent is excessive. This isn't a zombie shooter, or COD... you're allowed to give your opponents a chance to live, they're not gonna just keep getting back up and start shooting at you after you've gunned them down, especially when they're unarmed, just because you didn't strike the skull... And would they have known he wasn't disabled? Did they take a second between each shot fired to actually look at whether or not he was still trying to move forward or simply staggering to fall... the fatal shot, being last, went through the top of his head... you want speculation? I speculate that all of those shots were fired too quickly for anyone to even tell what was happening, and the last fatal bullet caught him in the top of his head as he was going down...

Here's an example of how fast the bullets are shot... now in this situation at least it was a bit more justified, since the dude they were dealing with was clearly deranged to some degree and had a knife... I found it disturbing when I heard more shots after he was already down... and I was especially upset by what they did after that... but my main point is, how long did it take these 2 officers to fire about 9 shots? Almost three seconds? 9 shots in less than three seconds... dude was going down after the first 1 or 2! I'm sure with adrenaline and all it seemed a lot longer to them... but really? They had space. Did they think of using a taser? maybe backing off a bit to maintain a safe distance when he was walking towards them?

http://www.newsweek.com/new-video-police-shoo...

Oh i should clarify, that I do not believe that the officer actually intended to kill him... in fact there is one witness video I saw that supports my idea on that, because even during her interview she comments that the officer looks distressed, and upset, almost as if to say "what have I done?" I am sure if he's a good and decent man, that he is absolutely torn up over the whole thing, and probably in need of some therapy.

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#33 Aug 25, 2014
here's that video and interview I just mentioned... took me a moment to find it again...

NSNovum

Washington, DC

#34 Aug 25, 2014
Yeah I feel sorry for both men in this situation. Brown may not have been the greatest guy in the word but no one deserves to die like that, and the poor officer who now has to live with himself.
Billy

Willingboro, NJ

#35 Aug 25, 2014
If someone like Michael Brown was bold enough to rob a store, and flat out assault the store owner.. he certainly was bold enough to assault an officer. Maybe he initially thought is was going to be an altercation without a gun coming into it and he would of won that kind of fight, but the officer felt his life was threatened and took the necessary steps to eliminate the threat.
NSNovum

Washington, DC

#36 Aug 25, 2014
Billy wrote:
If someone like Michael Brown was bold enough to rob a store, and flat out assault the store owner.. he certainly was bold enough to assault an officer. Maybe he initially thought is was going to be an altercation without a gun coming into it and he would of won that kind of fight, but the officer felt his life was threatened and took the necessary steps to eliminate the threat.
Yeah it's a shame
The Man

Merchantville, NJ

#37 Aug 25, 2014
This is her story days later.... What no hands up?
bill

Merchantville, NJ

#38 Aug 25, 2014
I think Michael Brown earned his Trayvon wings.

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#39 Aug 25, 2014
Billy wrote:
If someone like Michael Brown was bold enough to rob a store, and flat out assault the store owner.. he certainly was bold enough to assault an officer. Maybe he initially thought is was going to be an altercation without a gun coming into it and he would of won that kind of fight, but the officer felt his life was threatened and took the necessary steps to eliminate the threat.
The only problem is after taking the necessary steps to get himself out of immediate danger (the part with the altercation at the car) once he was not within striking range, he should have taken a few seconds to switch to a taser, or taken better care of his aim with his gun... the result is very unfortunate... and I'm sure he's probably rerun the scenario in his head dozens of times, thinking of the other ways he could have handled it so that no one would have died... I do feel for the guy... BUT at the same time I find it strange that he hasn't even been charged with anything, or at least was detained in some way. most people involved in a situation where a person has died by their hands will spend at least one night in a cell with some kind of charge of involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, endangerment of some kind... no matter how much grief or regret they may feel... I never understood what makes it any different when the person in question is a cop or authority figure of that type... and it's not like every time a cop kills someone he gets to go chill at home with paid leave whereas most other people would be sitting in a cell... but every now and then this happens and I can't figure out why...

Since: Apr 12

Willingboro, NJ

#40 Aug 25, 2014
bill wrote:
I think Michael Brown earned his Trayvon wings.
I'm sorry what does that mean? I guess you could say that joke flew over my head. XD

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