Federal agent's bravery in tropics turns into nightmare

Full story: Buffalo News 29
William G. Clark has been living a courtroom nightmare for the last two years. The federal agent from Fredonia finds himself on the opposite side of the law in the U.S. Virgin Islands, where he is scheduled to stand trial later thisoct month on charges of killing a neighbor. Full Story
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claire

Fredonia, NY

#1 Oct 10, 2010
here's another brave cop not hesitating even on his day off to stop and help a woman being victimized by her boyfriend (actually two old dudes I heard). cop tries to talk to the dude guy who is having none of it and says he has a gun and is gonna kill the old lady. cop decides to leave after the old dudette get in his work car because she's afraid for her life and wants to get out of there. after the guy is acting all kinds of insane and threatening, he tries to attack the cop. as i understand it the cop defends himself and the old lady 'cause the guy wont back off and cop shoots the guy who dies later. now those island people want to charge him with murder and other stuff because they say the guy only had a flashlight weapon. they don't want you to know the guy had a big black steel flashlight the kind with 6 of those big batteries and is heavy. they must be nuts there in the UNITED STATES VIRGIN ISLANDS. no wonder they have such a high murder rate.
Sounds Like Home

Angelica, NY

#2 Oct 10, 2010
claire wrote:
here's another brave cop not hesitating even on his day off to stop and help a woman being victimized by her boyfriend (actually two old dudes I heard). cop tries to talk to the dude guy who is having none of it and says he has a gun and is gonna kill the old lady. cop decides to leave after the old dudette get in his work car because she's afraid for her life and wants to get out of there. after the guy is acting all kinds of insane and threatening, he tries to attack the cop. as i understand it the cop defends himself and the old lady 'cause the guy wont back off and cop shoots the guy who dies later. now those island people want to charge him with murder and other stuff because they say the guy only had a flashlight weapon. they don't want you to know the guy had a big black steel flashlight the kind with 6 of those big batteries and is heavy. they must be nuts there in the UNITED STATES VIRGIN ISLANDS. no wonder they have such a high murder rate.
Sounds like the same self defense laws that get you indicted and locked up in our beloved New York State. Virgin Islands=New York
wellnow

Fredonia, NY

#3 Oct 10, 2010
The U.S. should withhold all funds that are sent to the virgin islands, I am sure they are all on welfare also, that should be stopped. The place should be interdicted for travel anyway because of the high murder rate. They want to play hard, then we should hit them where it counts!
Yathink

Buffalo, NY

#4 Oct 11, 2010
Didn't it say he EMPTIED his gun into the guy!!? All FIVE shots, at point blank range? Sounds more like the NYC police that shot that guy reaching for his wallet 44 times.(Well, they SHOT 44 times, they only hit him 22 or so..again at point blank range) When I see cop shootings that are basically "spray and pray", I'm always suspicious. I don't think this is so clear cut at all. Just how close was he to this lady?
wellnow

Fredonia, NY

#5 Oct 11, 2010
Yathink wrote:
Didn't it say he EMPTIED his gun into the guy!!? All FIVE shots, at point blank range? Sounds more like the NYC police that shot that guy reaching for his wallet 44 times.(Well, they SHOT 44 times, they only hit him 22 or so..again at point blank range) When I see cop shootings that are basically "spray and pray", I'm always suspicious. I don't think this is so clear cut at all. Just how close was he to this lady?
A 5 shot pistol is usually a small caliber weapon, which would probably take all 5 to stop someone. You shoot to stop the threat. If your life was threatened, would you want the cops to shoot once and let the threat continue against you?
Yathink

Buffalo, NY

#6 Oct 11, 2010
Most 5 shot weapons would be a .38, or in all probability a .357 magnum, the single best person killer round ever invented. Look it up. Therefore, one shot should have been plenty, even a .38. If you define a .38 as a small caliber, you don't know much about guns, especially modern arms. Most .38's shoot what's called "Plus P" rounds, meaning high performance. A .38 plus P is NOT a small caliber. Ar close range, it should be pretty devestating. And, again, a .357 goes without saying. I'd say there's LOTS of questions in this case.
claire

Fredonia, NY

#7 Oct 11, 2010
Yathink wrote:
Most 5 shot weapons would be a .38, or in all probability a .357 magnum, the single best person killer round ever invented. Look it up. Therefore, one shot should have been plenty, even a .38. If you define a .38 as a small caliber, you don't know much about guns, especially modern arms. Most .38's shoot what's called "Plus P" rounds, meaning high performance. A .38 plus P is NOT a small caliber. Ar close range, it should be pretty devestating. And, again, a .357 goes without saying. I'd say there's LOTS of questions in this case.
hope it's never your wife, sister, daughter in a similar situation. you wouldn't give a rats a## about how many shots.
claire

Fredonia, NY

#8 Oct 11, 2010
Yathink wrote:
Didn't it say he EMPTIED his gun into the guy!!? All FIVE shots, at point blank range? Sounds more like the NYC police that shot that guy reaching for his wallet 44 times.(Well, they SHOT 44 times, they only hit him 22 or so..again at point blank range) When I see cop shootings that are basically "spray and pray", I'm always suspicious. I don't think this is so clear cut at all. Just how close was he to this lady?
maybe it wasn't clear to you. the "lady" had just run to cop's vehicle, got in and was within inches of the agent who was sitting next to her... unable to close door... while abuser attempting to assualt the cop. ya don't get much closer than that.
SelfDefenseTrain er

AOL

#9 Oct 11, 2010
Yathink, obviously you know a little about guns, so you would also know that a trained shooter can empty a revolver in under a second..before blood even starts to flow. If someone is within striking distance of your head and face, do you take one shot and re-assess the situation or do you make sure the threat is removed? Plenty of info on the net about bad guys surviving multiple gsw's to the chest, especially if they have been drinking and/or drugging. Do you understand that the resilient human body has to be practically blown apart to stop some particularly violent aggressors. Is the attacker drunk? Ethanol is a very effective general anesthetic: in the days before modern anesthesia, military surgeons poured whiskey down the throats of wounded soldiers before they amputated their devastated limbs. Is the attacker on drugs? Heroin could be described as a concentrated version of morphine, the strongest pain killer in general use. Cocaine—particularly crack—delivers part of its high to the user by releasing the body’s own epinephrine and nor-epinephrine, creating super-strength and imperviousness to pain. If you take care to read all of the reports associated with the case as I did, this guy had a bac of .29 and illlegal narcotics in his system. He was also a known felon with a history of violence, who threatened to "kick the agents ass" according to the paper. What happened to the good old days when people were responsible for their own actions? I.E if you spill hot coffee on your lap because you are an imbecile, why is it Mcdonald's fault? If you are a drunk lunatic and threaten a police officer with a steel flashlight and start pounding on his door with it, it's your own dumb ass to blame for being shot.
Yathink

Buffalo, NY

#10 Oct 11, 2010
Selfdefense... yep, I know a little about guns, and that close, I'd have shot him in the head once and been done, if I was trying to kill him and not disable him. And, let's be honest here, the guy had a flashlight, NOT a gun or knife. Any reasonable guy ought to have been able to block at least one blow, or kick the perp hard emough to knock him back. There might have been options. And to Claire... I doubt you know crap about shooting anyone. I've left more dead in one sunny afternoon than you'll even see dead in a lifetime..my point is still valid...there are questions to be asked, and no, I don't see this as clearly as you do at all.
localresident

Fredonia, NY

#11 Oct 11, 2010
The guy that was shot was a)naked, b) drunk, c) reapeatedly beating on the girlfriend's car with said flashlight while threatening her, d)threw a "large landscaping stone" at the car as well. According to the shooter in question (of-duty ATF agent, not a cop), the bullet-catcher threatened to "blow this bitch's head off", and lunged at the agent while he tried to get in his car. The pair lived in the apartment above him, and were frequently in violent arguments. If this is truly the case, the guy deserverd everything he got.

Btw, the weapon used was his ATF-issued revolver.

http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/08/11/a-justi...
wellnow

Fredonia, NY

#12 Oct 11, 2010
Yathink wrote:
Most 5 shot weapons would be a .38, or in all probability a .357 magnum, the single best person killer round ever invented. Look it up. Therefore, one shot should have been plenty, even a .38. If you define a .38 as a small caliber, you don't know much about guns, especially modern arms. Most .38's shoot what's called "Plus P" rounds, meaning high performance. A .38 plus P is NOT a small caliber. Ar close range, it should be pretty devestating. And, again, a .357 goes without saying. I'd say there's LOTS of questions in this case.
Wrong A .357 is a six shot revolver, same as a .38, most five shot weapons are .380 or a .32, I carried a .38, it sucked as a round, same as a 9mm, the best was a .357 and my favorite that I carry now is a .40 cal., I know all about pistols as they are properly called!! I have qualified with each and every caliber mentioned here. A lot you know. There are some .38 five round pistols , but the .38 is a crappy round, thats why the cops got away from them, most police agencies carry the .40 cal. now.
Yathink

Buffalo, NY

#13 Oct 11, 2010
wellnow wrote:
<quoted text>Wrong A .357 is a six shot revolver, same as a .38, most five shot weapons are .380 or a .32, I carried a .38, it sucked as a round, same as a 9mm, the best was a .357 and my favorite that I carry now is a .40 cal., I know all about pistols as they are properly called!! I have qualified with each and every caliber mentioned here. A lot you know. There are some .38 five round pistols , but the .38 is a crappy round, thats why the cops got away from them, most police agencies carry the .40 cal. now.
Smith and Wesson makes a nice 5 shot .357..38 plus P's are almost as hot. The reason you have a .40 is because the high cap 9 mil's they originally went to don't do the job as well as the old 38's did. The reason, by the way, from going to revolvers to pistols (if you want to get technical) was the CAPACITY, not the effectiveness. The .40 is close, but still no .357. The reason, by the way, that there are 5 shot and 6 shot versions of most revolvers is size, weight, and concealablity. If you are a patrolman with a hip holster, a 4, even a 6 ince barreled large frame .357 is no sweat to carry. Try it under a coat. If concealment is an issue, then you use a smaller version, THINNER, meaning 5 shot. By the way also, the type of ammo is the issue, really. Most police carried regular,normal pressure, ball ammo, and they suck no matter what. Try a Plus P .38 semi-wadcutter. It'll knock the socks off of anything close up. 380's and 32's are pistols, semi-autos, and I have one of each and they both hold 6. With Hydro-shock ammo, you'd be amazed what they're like close up, for their size. Even a 9 Mil, with Plus p jacketed hollow points can be quite effective. Unfortunately, cops can't use that, hence, they suck. So...wrong? I think not. I hope the guy is innocent, I do. But no way am I assuming so, that's all.
ahhh

Fredonia, NY

#14 Oct 12, 2010
Most cops do not carry ball ammo,they carry jacketed hollow points. The sheriff used to and may still do carry the black talon round. Ball ammo is used for qualifying not as regular duty ammo!
mingya

Fredonia, NY

#15 Oct 12, 2010
Yathink wrote:
Selfdefense... yep, I know a little about guns, and that close, I'd have shot him in the head once and been done, if I was trying to kill him and not disable him. And, let's be honest here, the guy had a flashlight, NOT a gun or knife. Any reasonable guy ought to have been able to block at least one blow, or kick the perp hard emough to knock him back. There might have been options. And to Claire... I doubt you know crap about shooting anyone. I've left more dead in one sunny afternoon than you'll even see dead in a lifetime..my point is still valid...there are questions to be asked, and no, I don't see this as clearly as you do at all.
You may know a lot about guns but don't know sh%t about a shoot. You shoot to kill not maim, injure, warn or to try to get their attention. If you did indeed kill as many as you have said I'm sure your gunny Sgt would puke if he read that you would have allowed this guy to even get close to you.
Yathink

Buffalo, NY

#16 Oct 12, 2010
If I had a Gunny Sgt., he would NOT have been a policeman, or any other kind of law enforcement officer. BIG difference. I've been in frigging street fights when guys had knives and bottles and other crap, and knocked the crap out of them bare handed. Why? They were drunk and I wasn't. The guy in this case was clearly wound on something, and the cop wasn't. I love the standard law and order types, who always think killing is the first and only choice, especially when most of them have never done it or anything even close, just like a lot of the war cheerleaders. As to ammo, maybe rules have changed, I'm not claiming the most experience in that regard, but I do know that was a huge issue with the original issuance of the 9 Mil. on a nationwide basis. Anyway, take a look at an effectiveness rating for all ammo's, and you might be a bit surprised as to what works and what doesn't. And, remember, we're not talking deer hunting here, we're talking about the average cop shooting...less than 7 yards!!(That's 21 feet for those who need help)At that range, any decent shot shouldn't need more than one shot of anything reasonable. So, I'll stick to my opinion that anything .38 or larger is just fine, and I'll even include the often derided 9 Mil., if the proper ammo is used. And, I must point out, it's not the size of the hole a bullet makes as much as where that hole is. And, once more, I must point out that in this discussion, I'm only saying I'm not sure, nor can anyone else here be sure, what happened and why, but clearly there are questions to be asked and explored.
Claire

Fredonia, NY

#17 Oct 12, 2010
Yathink wrote:
Selfdefense... yep, I know a little about guns, and that close, I'd have shot him in the head once and been done, if I was trying to kill him and not disable him. And, let's be honest here, the guy had a flashlight, NOT a gun or knife. Any reasonable guy ought to have been able to block at least one blow, or kick the perp hard emough to knock him back. There might have been options. And to Claire... I doubt you know crap about shooting anyone. I've left more dead in one sunny afternoon than you'll even see dead in a lifetime..my point is still valid...there are questions to be asked, and no, I don't see this as clearly as you do at all.
I'm glad I don't know "crap" about shooting anyone and YOU are the one that does! I am surprised that you do not acknowledge you know little if anything about the logistics of this case, which i will not address here. I posted because I'm protesting the way the USVI government has handled this case. I'm protesting and bringing to light my concern about future domestic violence victims whose calls may be responded to a little more slowly, esp in the U.S. Virgin Islands. Remember, too, that the law stipulates that these cases are not viewed with "hindsight" (so easy for us armchair "authorities" to say what they'd do or not do) but rather how the incident would be handled by any reasonable officer.
The point here is that while there may be questions, and you're entitled to believe there are, he is a FEDERAL AGENT and it is his constitutional RIGHT to respond to those questions before a Federal Court Judge - NOT an island state court which leaves waaaay too much to be desired.
Just got this yesterday (copy/paste if necessary)
http://highlevelstudios.com/wc.html
mingya

Fredonia, NY

#18 Oct 12, 2010
Yathink wrote:
If I had a Gunny Sgt., he would NOT have been a policeman, or any other kind of law enforcement officer. BIG difference. I've been in frigging street fights when guys had knives and bottles and other crap, and knocked the crap out of them bare handed. Why? They were drunk and I wasn't. The guy in this case was clearly wound on something, and the cop wasn't. I love the standard law and order types, who always think killing is the first and only choice, especially when most of them have never done it or anything even close, just like a lot of the war cheerleaders. As to ammo, maybe rules have changed, I'm not claiming the most experience in that regard, but I do know that was a huge issue with the original issuance of the 9 Mil. on a nationwide basis. Anyway, take a look at an effectiveness rating for all ammo's, and you might be a bit surprised as to what works and what doesn't. And, remember, we're not talking deer hunting here, we're talking about the average cop shooting...less than 7 yards!!(That's 21 feet for those who need help)At that range, any decent shot shouldn't need more than one shot of anything reasonable. So, I'll stick to my opinion that anything .38 or larger is just fine, and I'll even include the often derided 9 Mil., if the proper ammo is used. And, I must point out, it's not the size of the hole a bullet makes as much as where that hole is. And, once more, I must point out that in this discussion, I'm only saying I'm not sure, nor can anyone else here be sure, what happened and why, but clearly there are questions to be asked and explored.
So you would shoot once look the situation over then if you had enough time shoot again? Only if you had put the bbl in his ear. Why are there questions here? Better judged by twelve than carried by six.
Yathink

Buffalo, NY

#19 Oct 12, 2010
Claire wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm glad I don't know "crap" about shooting anyone and YOU are the one that does! I am surprised that you do not acknowledge you know little if anything about the logistics of this case, which i will not address here. I posted because I'm protesting the way the USVI government has handled this case. I'm protesting and bringing to light my concern about future domestic violence victims whose calls may be responded to a little more slowly, esp in the U.S. Virgin Islands. Remember, too, that the law stipulates that these cases are not viewed with "hindsight" (so easy for us armchair "authorities" to say what they'd do or not do) but rather how the incident would be handled by any reasonable officer.
The point here is that while there may be questions, and you're entitled to believe there are, he is a FEDERAL AGENT and it is his constitutional RIGHT to respond to those questions before a Federal Court Judge - NOT an island state court which leaves waaaay too much to be desired.
Just got this yesterday (copy/paste if necessary)
http://highlevelstudios.com/wc.html
Any police officer in this country who says they wouldn't catch crap for emptying their weapon into a man armed with a frigging flashlight is full of CRAPO!!!! AND, Federal officer or NOT, ANY officer in another country would be treated like this if they were suspected of a crime, and he clearly is SUSPECTED of one. What is your point? Oh, I got it...the domestic violence thing. Bull! How often in this country do cops take their time getting there, or do nothing when they do get there, in domestic violence cases? Why has this woman apparently changed stories several times? Most wife/girlfriend beaters I know of have done it many, many times before anything happens. Violations of writs of protection are ignored or handslapped too. And how many times have cops in these cases beeen threatened or even assaulted? Locally, you see any dead guys after the cops got there? NO!
SelfDefenseTrain er

AOL

#20 Oct 12, 2010
If you really would try to take a headshot at an attacker then I think you have over-estimated your abilities. Any trained law enforcement agent (and for that matter military personnel) would never go for a headshot first. Too small a target and obviously if you miss, too big a chance of collateral damge to bystanders, as well as letting the attacker get that much closer. In all my years of training never have I seen a program that teaches headshot first (perhaps snipers, but not applicable in self defense) I would like to see anyone point out an agency that teaches anything but "center mass". They are also taught "shoot until the threat is removed" not "shoot until you hope he stops" There are accounts of bad guys taking 6,8, 10 and even more bullets and still trying to bring down an officer. I am still of the mind that if you don't behave like an a$$hole, and threaten to attack a police officer, then follow that up with an attack with a metal flashlight (read deadly weapon) then you have much less of a chance of getting killed by said police officer. And for those of you who say it was only a flashlight, I will offer a hundred bucks to anyone who would care to sit down in a chair and have a drunk, 5'11 260# man swing a flashlight at their head. I am not in support of trigger happy cops, but I will certainly support one who acted to save his own life and that of the passenger. If Internal Affairs found it a good shoot, then the local "Keystone cops" should find the same.

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