Young men will always seek to prove themselves with a 'cause'

Jun 13, 2013 Full story: This Is Somerset 181

Having lived through the 1970s and been "radicalised" not through religion but politics into supporting the aims, if not the methods, of Irish republicanism, I understand to a degree why young men appear to lose all sense when presented with a "cause".

Full Story
Equality---

UK

#23 Jun 14, 2013
table wrote:
<quoted text>
the ira were a guerrilla army?
OK whats the difference between a "guerrilla army" and a terrorist group?
We'll it would obviously depend on your personal opinion, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Would you call Nelson Mandela a terrorist? He was involved in armed struggle yet he is referred throughout the world, including England. Would I call young Irishmen and woman terrorists because you wish me to, NO!

Many within my community, would call the British Army terrorists, because of there past often harassment, brutality, and murder within our community, however I am sure that you do not!

Like all people involved in the 'troubles' these young men and woman were victims of there surroundings. Many did terrible things and many made extreme fuck ups, regarding the killing of innocents, but so did the British Army whether you like it or not!

I did not agree with militant republicanism, however I can open my mind which I know that you are not very good at, and realise that many of these young Irish working class people would not have resorted to violence, or spent years in jail, or have given there lives, if Britain did not occupy part of our island.
They were also victims of circumstances, and your Government accepted this otherwise why did they set them all free from prison, as part of the GFA. Even those that committed horrible acts against innocents.
Equality---

UK

#24 Jun 14, 2013
Just a thought wrote:
Equality.This argument about the British in NI is just foolishness.The British have lived in NI since at least 1609.How"Irish"is an"Irishman"?How many Irish are living in Britain,Scotland,or Wales?If you look at the history of"troubles"you'll find that Ireland,during each period of rebellion,sought international intervention.How better to crush rebellion than occupation.You were part of the"UK"through the Act of Union.
I have to go running late however will get back to you, at some stage 'Still stuck in my first thought'

SLAN!

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#25 Jun 14, 2013
Just a thought wrote:
Equality.This argument about the British in NI is just foolishness.The British have lived in NI since at least 1609.How"Irish"is an"Irishman"?How many Irish are living in Britain,Scotland,or Wales?If you look at the history of"troubles"you'll find that Ireland,during each period of rebellion,sought international intervention.How better to crush rebellion than occupation.You were part of the"UK"through the Act of Union.
I think he means British control of NI. Not the British people who live there.

Every international intervention ended in calamity. We we're unlucky on several occasions Spanish, French etc.

The Act of Union wasn't fair though. Only Protestants were allowed to sit in the Irish Parliament that voted to accept the Act of Union. This despite the fact that the vast majority of Ireland were Catholics.

If Ireland had just got a little bit more respect from the British, I believe we still would be in the UK.

If the Irish had been Protestant, all would have been generally ok. I've studied the reasons for the failure of the Protestant Reformation in Ireland in university. To categorize all the English leaders etc of that time as bad would be to do them a disservice, the English spent a fortune on Ireland in the 1500's. But they put buffoons in charge of the Reformation in Ireland, who even managed to turn the ''old English''(English speaking settlers in Ireland from the 1100's) against them. The ''Old English'' became more ardent Catholics than the Gaelic Irish in many cases. The Reformation in Ireland was one big mess. James I and the Ulster plantations then caused a very big mess indeed.
Jeremy

London, UK

#26 Jun 14, 2013
Given the joke the Irish Govt are. They must know they are better of with us than the bumbling clowns that attemp to govern Ireland. But as the syaing goes, Every country has the government it deserves.
And seeing the sheer amout of emigration even the Irish know the country is a joke.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#27 Jun 14, 2013
Jeremy wrote:
Given the joke the Irish Govt are. They must know they are better of with us than the bumbling clowns that attemp to govern Ireland. But as the syaing goes, Every country has the government it deserves.
And seeing the sheer amout of emigration even the Irish know the country is a joke.
What are you talking about? What now constitutes the Republic of Ireland left the UK fully in 1922.

If the UK were so good at running things, how come they were bullied by a ''Loyalist'' militia in Ulster 1912-1914? How come a popular armed uprising got Ireland out of the UK in 1922?

The British Government were even MORE useless than any tossers we've had running the Republic of Ireland since then.

Look at the mess they made with Northern Ireland. Compare THAT to the Republic who have done a lot better than Northern Ireland since partition. Would I seriously have wanted THAT type of future the British Government provided? British run Northern Ireland has been an utter failure in comparison to the Irish run Republic of Ireland.

No two ways about it, the history speaks for itself.

Talk about emigration? Most of that happened when Ireland was part of the UK and ruled from Westminster. By your logic that surely means that the UK was a joke?

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#28 Jun 14, 2013
The fact your own Queen laid a wreath and bowed her head in respect of the men who freed the 26 counties says enough.

Your country made a balls of things in Ireland.

Separation was the only viable option when it became apparent the British Government could be bullied into putting off democratic decisions (Irish Home Rule within the UK) by German armed ''Loyalist'' militias in Ulster.

Speaking of jokes?
glad i left

Manassas, VA

#29 Jun 14, 2013
"Emigration 'at famine levels' as 200 leave country each day

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/emigrati...

2% of the entire population left in 2012. If there is another country that matches that level of rejection, I'd like to hear which one.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#30 Jun 14, 2013
Equality--- wrote:
Interestingly even though the IRA was made up from working class young Irish people, and with there limited arms supply and military know how, they were to have committed the most unfortunate death rate against working class young English soldiers in any recent conflict that Britain was involved in, which I have found to be highly surprising.
I read in an interesting book about the IRA's rise in capability.

There were about 1500 PIRA volunteers at any time during 1971-2005, that was their limit, they didn't want any more, but as you say they could've had many more. It was counter-productive to the PIRA to have mass numbers of volunteers, that was not the way in which they approached the conflict as you rightly have said. Quality over quantity was the approach, and I'll talk a bit further about this in a minute.

Most of the 1500 were ordinary members providing assistance, community policing, administration etc.

There were about 150-200 ASU (Active Service Unit) members in the PIRA at any time, these lads and lassies were the elite. The ''professionals'' in other words. Most of them never drank alcohol, didn't bring attention to themselves in any ways, and were more skilled than the other 1300 members in many ways. These ASU people were the cream of the crop. By the 1990's quite a few of them had university degrees etc, and many more ASU's without these types of qualifications were just skilled hardened volunteers with their eyes firmly on their goal.

See that film from 1992? Patriot Games (adopted from Tom Clancy novel) with Harrison Ford (CIA) and Sean Bean (Dissident Republican)? The ''Sean Miller'' character is like a hardened dissident once from a PIRA ASU, highly trained, skilled etc. Even Tom Clancy wrote books about these type of lads and lassies.

Sean Bean mo chara, he played the Irish role very well in that film......



Although by all accounts the novel is even more intriguing.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#31 Jun 14, 2013
glad i left wrote:
"Emigration 'at famine levels' as 200 leave country each day
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/emigrati...
2% of the entire population left in 2012. If there is another country that matches that level of rejection, I'd like to hear which one.
Rejected by who?

Over 21,000 on holiday visas, I know a number of people who went to Oz and the USA for a year and have since returned.

Anyway hows the emigration going?
Equality---

UK

#32 Jun 15, 2013
Dubbadub wrote:
<quoted text>
I think he means British control of NI. Not the British people who live there.
Every international intervention ended in calamity. We we're unlucky on several occasions Spanish, French etc.
The Act of Union wasn't fair though. Only Protestants were allowed to sit in the Irish Parliament that voted to accept the Act of Union. This despite the fact that the vast majority of Ireland were Catholics.
If Ireland had just got a little bit more respect from the British, I believe we still would be in the UK.
If the Irish had been Protestant, all would have been generally ok. I've studied the reasons for the failure of the Protestant Reformation in Ireland in university. To categorize all the English leaders etc of that time as bad would be to do them a disservice, the English spent a fortune on Ireland in the 1500's. But they put buffoons in charge of the Reformation in Ireland, who even managed to turn the ''old English''(English speaking settlers in Ireland from the 1100's) against them. The ''Old English'' became more ardent Catholics than the Gaelic Irish in many cases. The Reformation in Ireland was one big mess. James I and the Ulster plantations then caused a very big mess indeed.
Cheers DUBS! I was just about to answer 'Just a thoughts' post, exactly word for word as your reply post!

Feck! If you believe that, a flying pig has just past my window, sorry Dubs do not have your Irish historical knowledge, Fair play! and thanks for the pull out......
Phew! that was a close one!....LOL!

Yack later MO CHARA!
table

Bury, UK

#33 Jun 15, 2013
Equality--- wrote:
<quoted text>We'll it would obviously depend on your personal opinion, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Would you call Nelson Mandela a terrorist? He was involved in armed struggle yet he is referred throughout the world, including England. Would I call young Irishmen and woman terrorists because you wish me to, NO!
Many within my community, would call the British Army terrorists, because of there past often harassment, brutality, and murder within our community, however I am sure that you do not!
Like all people involved in the 'troubles' these young men and woman were victims of there surroundings. Many did terrible things and many made extreme fuck ups, regarding the killing of innocents, but so did the British Army whether you like it or not!
I did not agree with militant republicanism, however I can open my mind which I know that you are not very good at, and realise that many of these young Irish working class people would not have resorted to violence, or spent years in jail, or have given there lives, if Britain did not occupy part of our island.
They were also victims of circumstances, and your Government accepted this otherwise why did they set them all free from prison, as part of the GFA. Even those that committed horrible acts against innocents.
"victims of circumstance" really?

why was it that the vast majority were able rise above being "victims of circumstances",and didn't turn to terror?

the government released many of the people who committed terrorist offence to obtain peace,put simply, the people of NI and UK had had enough of these extremists.

repugnant as it is releasing these killers is a price worth paying for peace.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#34 Jun 15, 2013
table wrote:
the government released many of the people who committed terrorist offence to obtain peace,put simply, the people of NI and UK had had enough of these extremists.
repugnant as it is releasing these killers is a price worth paying for peace.
You do agree though that the Unionist discrimination (jobs,voting, housing etc) was wrong and caused the Troubles?
table

Bury, UK

#35 Jun 15, 2013
Dubbadub wrote:
<quoted text>
You do agree though that the Unionist discrimination (jobs,voting, housing etc) was wrong and caused the Troubles?
of course Unionist discrimination was wrong.
caused the troubles? well i really don't know enough to say,but probably they did.
caused terrorist organisations to target unarmed civilians? NO.
targeting the security forces is/was wrong but at the least they are a group with the ability to defend themselves.
deliberately targeting defenseless civilians is the point "freedom fighters" become "terrorists" and ANY group that do so,should be condemned by all right thinking people,no ifs no buts.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#36 Jun 15, 2013
table wrote:
<quoted text>
of course Unionist discrimination was wrong.
caused the troubles? well i really don't know enough to say,but probably they did.
caused terrorist organisations to target unarmed civilians? NO.
targeting the security forces is/was wrong but at the least they are a group with the ability to defend themselves.
deliberately targeting defenseless civilians is the point "freedom fighters" become "terrorists" and ANY group that do so,should be condemned by all right thinking people,no ifs no buts.
Thank you for at least acknowledging the Unionist discrimination. Fairly easy for us normal people to see, but some on here have even denied its existence.

It was a messy conflict though, like certain elements of the British security forces/intelligence agencies colluding with the UVF/UDA. And of course the IRA carried out some atrocities too.

One big mess really, glad there is peace now, hopefully it will last.
Just a thought

Beloit, WI

#37 Jun 15, 2013
Dubbadub.I am familiar with the film"Patriot Games".What brought about the terrorist's downfall?He committed an act of terrorism on British soil that backfired and his brother was killed.His insane desire for revenge drives his to commit a final act of terror which costs him his life.Another point is terrorists will kill other terrorists no matter what their former relationship or"cause" was.
Just a thought

Beloit, WI

#38 Jun 15, 2013
Should have been"drives him".
Just a thought

Beloit, WI

#39 Jun 15, 2013
Dubbadub.Com paring the American Revolution to the Irish Rebellion,geography was a blessing for the US and a curse for Ireland.In the US,we could draw the British into the interior to extended and cut their supply lines.In Ireland,you are in close proximity to Britain,though if memory serves me,Ireland was largely uncharted in the 1600's.This was one advantage for the Irish people.
humberman99

Liverpool, UK

#40 Jun 15, 2013
there will be no lasting peace while the influence of pseudo irish communist influence remains.

Dirty cowardly murderers, only to be glorified by inbreds such as dubbadub and equality.
Equality---

Edinburgh, UK

#41 Jun 15, 2013
table wrote:
<quoted text>
deliberately targeting defenseless civilians is the point "freedom fighters" become "terrorists" and ANY group that do so,should be condemned by all right thinking people,no ifs no buts.
Are you including the British Army, RUC, UDR, and B-Specials??????????
humberman99

Liverpool, UK

#42 Jun 15, 2013
of course not, the British security services were, and are, and always have been exemplary.

Contrary to pseudo irish communist murderers propaganda.

As proved by the Bloody Suday enquiry, as one side refused to give evidence.

Therefore all evidence as given negated.

Therefore Scarman upheld.

Stick that on the wall of shame.

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