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Dubbadub

Ireland

#41 Feb 20, 2013
Krypteia wrote:
<quoted text>I was purely making about that you were going on about the hardships of the Irish when their track record as been to great in it's self....You mention the Irish pirate and the treatment of the blacks in the US by Irish immigrants how is that going to get sympathy,well firstly I was just making a point about the down trodden poor Irish when in reality they have been just as bad as everyone in the past and secondly to be honest how many people know of these two things anyway,,,I can't see why they can't use the black treatment as when never stop hearing about the fecking potato famine all around the same time,oh they weren't just beating a few blacks they were murdered ,so there's a race issue there for openers...So your logic is no one would be interested in the murder and land theft of the Scots and Welsh because how long ago but it's ok to demonise when it happened a couple of hundred years ago to the Irish,in my opinion what go's round comes round,and no time limit in that case...you can't pick and choose because it ends up biting you in the arse
I'll get back to this in more detail later, but how can the Loyalists use Irish pirates from 1500 years ago to gain sympathy for violence from around the world in the case of a United Ireland being voted for?

Also I thought we were just talking about this issue i.e the loyalists actions if a united Ireland happens.

No need to go into the history of everything, you've brought up the potato famine not me, along with other things. Would you be surprised to know that most Irish people never discuss the potato famine? The English seem to feel more awkward around the subject than us, it isn't an issue over here at all.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#42 Feb 20, 2013
Krypteia wrote:
<quoted text>I was purely making about that you were going on about the hardships of the Irish when their track record as been to great in it's self....You mention the Irish pirate and the treatment of the blacks in the US by Irish immigrants how is that going to get sympathy,well firstly I was just making a point about the down trodden poor Irish when in reality they have been just as bad as everyone in the past and secondly to be honest how many people know of these two things anyway,,,I can't see why they can't use the black treatment as when never stop hearing about the fecking potato famine all around the same time,oh they weren't just beating a few blacks they were murdered ,so there's a race issue there for openers...So your logic is no one would be interested in the murder and land theft of the Scots and Welsh because how long ago but it's ok to demonise when it happened a couple of hundred years ago to the Irish,in my opinion what go's round comes round,and no time limit in that case...you can't pick and choose because it ends up biting you in the arse
I'm not talking about the harships of the Irish I was merely mentioning that the IRA had a lot of history and current events (1960's/70's etc) they could use at the time to justify their cause to the outside world. What 'oppression' do the Loyalists have to justify their cause for the violence in the case of a democratically voted for United Ireland? Irish pirates from over 1500 years ago?

My main point is that because of these reasons and the others mentioned earlier, they would have no cause, and no one in their right mind apart from a tiny few pig ignorant fools in England and Scotland would support them violently attacking a United Ireland.

No my point was about Loyalists and what cause they would have to violently oppose a United Ireland if it was democratically voted for. You've gone off topic and brought up things ranging from Irish pirates to the potato famine. If you want me to give you an answer as to why the pirates and warlords going to Scotland and Wales doesn't really matter now I will. Fact is those pirates and warlords most likely became Scottish and Welsh within a couple of generations. Most of the Protestants in NI can trace their ancestry back over 300 years on this island yet they still haven't integrated and still claim their British and the land is British. Where are the examples of this in Scotland and Wales by Irish warlord's descendants?

What goes around comes around? Just like mass immigration into England because of the empire then?
Krypteia

Workington, UK

#43 Feb 20, 2013
Dubbadub wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll get back to this in more detail later, but how can the Loyalists use Irish pirates from 1500 years ago to gain sympathy for violence from around the world in the case of a United Ireland being voted for?
Also I thought we were just talking about this issue i.e the loyalists actions if a united Ireland happens.
No need to go into the history of everything, you've brought up the potato famine not me, along with other things. Would you be surprised to know that most Irish people never discuss the potato famine? The English seem to feel more awkward around the subject than us, it isn't an issue over here at all.
i was only making points nothing else,as for the potato famine it is brought up constantly at times and I for one don't feel any awkwardness about it,couldn't careless....the points I'm making is through out history no one has been saints and the treatment of the Irish is the same as the Irish have done towards other people irrespective of time or scale and so on nothing more.
I'm not getting into an argument over this,just think the Dublin government wouldn't want to take on what could be a powder keg that's all,you only have to say and do the smallest thing against someone's culture and BOOM..

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#44 Feb 20, 2013
Krypteia wrote:
<quoted text>i was only making points nothing else,as for the potato famine it is brought up constantly at times and I for one don't feel any awkwardness about it,couldn't careless....the points I'm making is through out history no one has been saints and the treatment of the Irish is the same as the Irish have done towards other people irrespective of time or scale and so on nothing more.
I'm not getting into an argument over this,just think the Dublin government wouldn't want to take on what could be a powder keg that's all,you only have to say and do the smallest thing against someone's culture and BOOM..
Who brings it up constantly? I've never heard it brought up here apart from the odd programme on it and the bit I did about it in school. Just seems to be an issue which is talked about in England, sometimes on tele, in the papers the odd time, in history in English schools too I think. Probably a misconception that it is a big issue in Ireland today when it certainly isn't.

Well I think the Irish had a particularly hard time for a few hundred years, but a few hundred years is nothing in historical terms if you take the 10,000+ years people have been on this island and the many years it has ahead of it those few hundred years are just a bump in the road in real historical terms.

However many Loyalists in NI appear to have a bit of trouble letting go, take for example parading every year about a battle that happened in 1690 while the English and Irish have moved on.
Man of War

Aberdeen, UK

#45 Feb 21, 2013
Equality--- wrote:
<quoted text>Yes you are correct,and as as far as I am aware, this actual cruel act was not sanctioned or approved off by the INLA leadership.
After I had written my reply post to you, I knew you would come back at me about this particular one incident, which for some bizarre reasoning shocked the rightheous a lot more, than the barbaric torturous killings of numerous working class innocent Irish Catholics.
There was and is no excuse for any barbaric, savage, behaviour aganist a fellow human being, no matter who they are.
However lets put things into perspective, this particularly kidnap victim was to be set free, and he did not lose his life, though I am still aware that his ordeal must have been horrendous.
I have not claimed that the INLA were saints, however you are speaking about one incident by an unauthorised gang from within the INLA. There is a big difference here, to the hundreds of cruel, barbaric, savage, inhumane, torturous, murders committed by ethnic cleansing alcohol infused, sadistic "loyalist" paramilitary serial killers.
You have previously commented that the INLA were on a par to the shankill butchers, etc, this is completely incorrect, and untrue apart from the one incident that we have discussed.
Yes sure, a rose by any other name, eh? And of course their leadership will deny it because after all, what paramilitary outfit ever told the truth about anything unless it served their own devious purpose?

But people know...
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/victims/docs/newspaper...

Face it, they were a bad lot. They had a justifiably notorious reputation and were involved in everything including murder, torture, extortion, criminality and drug dealing. Yes, drug dealing too.

The Independent Monitoring Commission, which monitors paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland, claimed in a November 2004 report that the INLA was heavily involved in criminality. In 1999, the INLA in Dublin became involved in a feud with a criminal gang in the city. After a young INLA man named Patrick Campbell was killed by drug dealers, the INLA carried out several shootings in reprisal, including at least one killing. Irish journalist Paul Williams has also claimed the INLA, especially in Dublin, is now primarily a front for organised crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_National_L...

All of these groups including the UVF, the provies, the Red Hand, the INLA or whatever name they chose to go by were involved in torture in one way or another, whether it was to get information or to just get 'even'. Perhaps they all didn't derive the same perverse, sadistic pleasure from it as the butchers I'll concede, but if you were on the receiving end... would it really matter?
Equality---

Edinburgh, UK

#46 Feb 21, 2013
Man of War wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps they all didn't derive the same perverse, sadistic pleasure from it as the butchers I'll concede, but if you were on the receiving end... would it really matter?
First time ever that I have heard an admission, coming from an obvious non-nationalist/Catholic that the butchers were to receive pleasure for there sadistic activities aganist innocence.
Fair play to you, I applaud your courage for conceding to such a point. However the butchers were not the only loyalists, who preyed on innocent Catholics and then abducted and tortured them. Still your admittance of the sadistic pleasure that these monsters were to have during there masse killing spree, is suffice for me, again fair play.

I have not claimed that the INLA were angels, nor do I condone there handiwork, especially when it came to the killing of innocence. However, apart from that one incident, I have no recollection of them behaving in such a sadistic manner as the butchers, and other so-called loyalists.
And I will agree that some elements within the INLA over time, were to be involved in criminal activities such as robberys, smuggling, but as far as I am aware no INLA volunteer has ever been charged with drug dealing, within there community, or served a prison sentence for it. If so I would appreciate if you could send a post with the volunteer or volunteers names and his or there involvment and subsequent prison sentence or sentences.
The feud thing with the drug dealers, in Dublin spiralled out of control because of a huge clash of personalitys, and egos. The INLA were to take the side of a particular individual, who had a mix with certain members of this drug gang. The rivarly and violence afterwards between the two of them was not because of actual drug dealing, if so please provide the solid proof.
The INLA/IRSP leadership, have always been vehnently, aganist drug dealers, and drugs being peddled in there community.
It was not unknown that criminal guys on the fringes, of the INLA were to use there name, for there own finacial gain, these idiots are everywhere and are two a penny.
For actual INLA, volunteers to sell drugs within there communty, would have been I am positive sucidal. It would have brought a certain dismissal, from the INLA, and possibly an enternal hole in the ground.

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