Ukraine leftists meet NATO envoys with burning U.S. flag

[noshellswill]

Mr Because wrote:

Why dont you like Jews?
I`m really proud that in Russia jews actively participated in Revolution. In no other country could that happen. In no other land could people of so many different nationalities unite.

People united by terror and so united "they" did it way-wrong. That counts ! Marxists created a human terror, by their arrogance and over-reach, instead of a practical citizens community. Rotton to the core. And the core failure was catastrophic both in extent and in time.

Leaders became hangman and teachers, jailers. Commi-Russia ended up just another Czarist prison. And since the 1920s people mark Jews as thought-crime agents.

[Foresttoday]

The central problem it seems goes back to Stalin, when he eliminated so many Ukrainians and then filled their homes with People from Russia. It is sad, but we see similar things happening in Canada where there are French speaking people in an old British Colony. DeGuile tried to get them to separate in the 1950's. We now have an influx of Mexican's into Southern California and because they have numbers they want part of California. We need to keep our borders and if you live in a country you need to learn the language or go home. As to joining the EU or NATO, Ukraine needs to set a date for an election to decide. It needs to be a fair and legal election not like the early elections that took place under their independance. Let the people speak, and then do not hesitate to come back in 4-5 years to speak a second time.

[uther pendragon]

Stefanya wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree, actually in Ukrainian there are six different letters, but really just a softer version of the harder constanent. And people in Ukraine are very integrated with millions of Ukrainians living in Russia and millions of Russians living in Ukraine. They speak both languages and are fine with it.

It is quite strange that folks in Ukraine seem to have no hang-ups over speaking two languages but so many folks outside the nation "foam at the mouth" over it.
Unlike North Americans most people see being multi-lingual as a plus. I guess it is on account of intellectual difficiencies on this side of the Atlantic.:)

[Stefanya]

Swandiver wrote:

Ukraine presses on with its NATO preparations....
02-07-2008 16:39
Ukrainian Vice-Premier Hryhoriy Nemyria goes on two-day working visit to Brussels
During his visit, he will meet with EU High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy Javier Solana, NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, EU Commissioner for External Relations and European Neighborhood Policy Benita Ferrero-Waldner, some other EU high officials.
Morever, the Ukrainian vice-premier will meet with representatives of the North Atlantic Council in the form of a special meeting of Ukraine-NATO Commission at the level of ambassadors.

Ukrainians need to step up their anti-NATO activities, starting with kicking out those imposed-on-from-the-west Orange Revolutionary phonies, and work hard to save Ukraine before it becomes Balkanized ala the Balkans.

Ukraine doesn't need NATO to do the dirty work for the western robber barons hoping to steal natural resources which do not belong to them.

[Stefanya]

uther pendragon wrote:

<quoted text>
It is quite strange that folks in Ukraine seem to have no hang-ups over speaking two languages but so many folks outside the nation "foam at the mouth" over it.
Unlike North Americans most people see being multi-lingual as a plus. I guess it is on account of intellectual difficiencies on this side of the Atlantic.:)

And a very heavy dose of hate-filled, biased extremism, which they have been festering for some 100 years now in the case of the Diaspora who left Austro-hungary before WWI and who have been passing their hatred down generation to generations.

Being multi-lingual is the way Europeans have gone for ages and it has never hurt any of the countries in Europe.

[huub]

Stefanya wrote:

<quoted text>
Ukrainians need to step up their anti-NATO activities, starting with kicking out those imposed-on-from-the-west Orange Revolutionary phonies, and work hard to save Ukraine before it becomes Balkanized ala the Balkans.
Ukraine doesn't need NATO to do the dirty work for the western robber barons hoping to steal natural resources which do not belong to them.

LOL
Still claiming that's their own decision? Strange, sounds like telling them what to do.

[huub]

uther pendragon wrote:

<quoted text>
It is quite strange that folks in Ukraine seem to have no hang-ups over speaking two languages but so many folks outside the nation "foam at the mouth" over it.
Unlike North Americans most people see being multi-lingual as a plus. I guess it is on account of intellectual difficiencies on this side of the Atlantic.:)

Who "foams at the mouth" about it? Of course being multi-lingual is a plus.

[Baba Lu]

Stefanya wrote:

<quoted text>
YOu are the one shovelling propoganda... the rabidly hate-filled and incredibly biased propoganda of Diaspora.

Baba Lu replied:

I don't think I will reply to your comments anymore. You write dribble because you cannot disprove anything I have written. My comments make you irate because you know them to be true and you cannot defend against them. Which only shows that what you do try to defend is also based on lies. Do me and yourself a favor. Stay off the Russian and Ukrainian forums. Your input only makes your more educated cohorts look more pathetic than they are.

And on the diaspora issue; we should all thank them for bringing to light the truth about the past. They have always fought to educate the non Eastern Europeans about the disinformation shoveled by the Soviet Union. The truth about the savage Soviet ways. Holodomor, slave labor, death camps just to name a few. And thanks to all the diasporas who in no small measure gave hope to the enslaved Soviet masses and contributed to the Soviet demise. Well maybe not hope to all the Soviet masses. Yah not all of them like the ones that miss the good old days. Like you Stefanya and crew.

And the only former Republic that misses the good old days to some extent is Russia. It was on the top of the food chain in that hell and never felt its language, culture, history and identity would be snuffed. Them's the breaks. They will have to finally fend for themselves for once instead of breaking the backs of their neighbors for the glory.

Oh and maybe some of the backward peoples that were living in the stone age when the Soviets took them over and brought some level of education and civilization into their live are not too happy. Now they don't have such support and are back in the stone age. "What happened to us"?

I hope I didn't bore you too much.

Oh and by the way, I should have mentioned that computers are susceptible to severe damage if exposed to a raving madwoman pounding on it with her fists and being thrown about hither and dither.

Oops, too late. Ask one of your buddies to send you a copy of this reply.

I'll be looking down at you in the afterlife.

Ta Ta

[Bear]

Dr x wrote:

Historically yes, Russia and Ukraine had different cultures and language . Today, most of Ukraine watches Russian T.V. so the language and culture is homogenized . About all I could notice different in the language is that in Ukraine they use the 'soft H' as in Hovorit rather than the 'hard G 'Gavarit in Russia , a quicker speech tempo in Russia and about a dozen words are different . I am talking about the situation today amongst average people and not historically. Sorry folks ! Most Ukrainians in Ukraine speak both languages and don't really care much about language issues .

I hate to burst your balloon but your comment about Russian TV is nonsense. For the past two weeks I have been watching quite a bit of TV in the evening (in ODessa Oblast). There are just as many Ukrainian language stations as Russian (actually a few more). Some of the Russian stations are now beinf sub-titled in Ukrainian. Another interesting thing, two of the more popular channels are Discovery and Animal Planet. Both of these are American channels- dubbed in Ukrainian of course. A fir proportion of the movies are American Movies dubbed in Ukrainian. I just finished watching the latest Crocodile Dundee movie which I had missed in the States. Sorry to interrupt your opinions with facts but that is the way things are. You would have a different slant on things if your were here for awhile.
Why does theforum have to get so upset over language? The "Man on the Street" in Ukraine doesn't have time to worry about it ( it is just fuel for the politicians). He just uses whichever language the person with whom he is speaking is comfortable with. You would be amazed at how many can use English in addition to Russian and Ukrainian. This applies not only to the well educated people. The other day I was buying some produce from a farmer who sold in the bazaar. I tried saying what I wanted in Rusian- he replied in limited but functional Englsih.
Enough already with having hissy fits about something that the "Man on the street" couldn't care less about.

[Dr x]

Bear wrote:

<quoted text>
I hate to burst your balloon but your comment about Russian TV is nonsense. For the past two weeks I have been watching quite a bit of TV in the evening (in ODessa Oblast). There are just as many Ukrainian language stations as Russian (actually a few more). Some of the Russian stations are now beinf sub-titled in Ukrainian. Another interesting thing, two of the more popular channels are Discovery and Animal Planet. Both of these are American channels- dubbed in Ukrainian of course. A fir proportion of the movies are American Movies dubbed in Ukrainian. I just finished watching the latest Crocodile Dundee movie which I had missed in the States. Sorry to interrupt your opinions with facts but that is the way things are. You would have a different slant on things if your were here for awhile.
Why does theforum have to get so upset over language? The "Man on the Street" in Ukraine doesn't have time to worry about it ( it is just fuel for the politicians). He just uses whichever language the person with whom he is speaking is comfortable with. You would be amazed at how many can use English in addition to Russian and Ukrainian. This applies not only to the well educated people. The other day I was buying some produce from a farmer who sold in the bazaar. I tried saying what I wanted in Rusian- he replied in limited but functional Englsih.
Enough already with having hissy fits about something that the "Man on the street" couldn't care less about.

It is pretty hard to tell what is Ukrainian and what is Russian for a non native visitor . Language in Odessa is pretty homogenized ,I find. Odessa was a Russian city , historically , so mostly Russian style dialect is spoken there . The main point is no one really cares about language issues in Ukraine , and except for the lunatic fringe in the west there are no problems with language in Ukraine . Privyet from Canada and stay away from the samogon !

[Red]

Armenia is following in Ukraine's and Georgia's footsteps....

Armenia intends to develop cooperation with NATO in the framework of the Individual Partnership Action Plan, President Serzh Sargsyan said.“I think it will be a good experience for our armed forces. But we have numerously stated that joining NATO is not on Armenia’s foreign policy agenda. Former President Kocharian and I, then-Defense Minister, have commented on the issue,” the President said. Asked whether Georgia, Ukraine and Azerbaijan’s aspiration to NATO may be described as anti-Russian move, Mr Sargsyan said,“I do not remember any state explaining its joining NATO by a wish to secure itself against Russia. But I speak from the viewpoint of the Armenian statehood. If our country is a member of CSTO and if there are Russian bases here, joining NATO would certainly be an anti-Russian step. But we don’t have reasons to do so,” Kommersant reports.

http://www.hyetert.com/haber3.asp... üncel&Id=29601&DilId=2

[Bear]

Dr x wrote:

<quoted text> It is pretty hard to tell what is Ukrainian and what is Russian for a non native visitor . Language in Odessa is pretty homogenized ,I find. Odessa was a Russian city , historically , so mostly Russian style dialect is spoken there . The main point is no one really cares about language issues in Ukraine , and except for the lunatic fringe in the west there are no problems with language in Ukraine . Privyet from Canada and stay away from the samogon !

Since I last posted about TV in Ukraine a najor change has occured. Out of 60 channels on the cable that we watch, some 20 channels have blanked out. They are all Russian speaking channels. The only Russian Language ones left are those sub-titled in Ukrainian.
Needless to say those who use Russian as a primary language are not happy. They blame, without any proof, Yushenko & Tymoshenko. I don't know who ordered this nor whether it will remain long but I agree with their unhappiness. At home in Oregon we get satellite TV and have, in addition to English, several channels in Spanish. I do not begrudge TV in their own laguage to the hispanics and I certainly think the Russian speakers should be allowed to view TV in their own language. Some politicians are trying to make points but they are losing friends by doing this.
I can see their logic but it is not a productive one.
Oh, incidentally, some of the older people who grew up under the Soviet Era are chanting the same tired old mantra " It is America's fault". The brainwashing of that era was certainly effective.
I will post more on the TV situation if any changes occur.

[Red]

Bear wrote:

<quoted text>
Since I last posted about TV in Ukraine a najor change has occured. Out of 60 channels on the cable that we watch, some 20 channels have blanked out. They are all Russian speaking channels. The only Russian Language ones left are those sub-titled in Ukrainian.
Needless to say those who use Russian as a primary language are not happy. They blame, without any proof, Yushenko & Tymoshenko. I don't know who ordered this nor whether it will remain long but I agree with their unhappiness. At home in Oregon we get satellite TV and have, in addition to English, several channels in Spanish. I do not begrudge TV in their own laguage to the hispanics and I certainly think the Russian speakers should be allowed to view TV in their own language. Some politicians are trying to make points but they are losing friends by doing this.
I can see their logic but it is not a productive one.
Oh, incidentally, some of the older people who grew up under the Soviet Era are chanting the same tired old mantra " It is America's fault". The brainwashing of that era was certainly effective.
I will post more on the TV situation if any changes occur.

Were any of the Russian channels propaganda outlets for the Kremlin?

[Dr x]

Bear wrote:

<quoted text>
Since I last posted about TV in Ukraine a najor change has occured. Out of 60 channels on the cable that we watch, some 20 channels have blanked out. They are all Russian speaking channels. The only Russian Language ones left are those sub-titled in Ukrainian.
Needless to say those who use Russian as a primary language are not happy. They blame, without any proof, Yushenko & Tymoshenko. I don't know who ordered this nor whether it will remain long but I agree with their unhappiness. At home in Oregon we get satellite TV and have, in addition to English, several channels in Spanish. I do not begrudge TV in their own laguage to the hispanics and I certainly think the Russian speakers should be allowed to view TV in their own language. Some politicians are trying to make points but they are losing friends by doing this.
I can see their logic but it is not a productive one.
Oh, incidentally, some of the older people who grew up under the Soviet Era are chanting the same tired old mantra " It is America's fault". The brainwashing of that era was certainly effective.
I will post more on the TV situation if any changes occur.

Yeah ,T.V. really was a problem for Ukraine . As late as 1990 ,90 % of programing in the Odessa - Kherson area was all Russian programs from Moscow . Between 1921 to 1991 , the Russian language was favoured . This is a reaction to the past injustice . It is not right for the Russian speakers , but it is understandable in the historic sense . Sounds like language issues are back on the front burner as the election is a little over a year away . Keep us posted . Say hi to Kherson for me - lots of good vineyards there.

[Red]

Stefan wrote:

<quoted text>
Why do Russian care what Ukrainians want for their country?
I am Ukrainian and so I care. What is your concern, and don't tell me its the Russians inside Ukraine, because they have all the same advantages as everyone else?

The majority of so-called "Russians" in Ukraine are really "Ukrainians of Russian ancestry"--who support Ukrainian sovereignty.

All the Russian racsist, Russin chauvinist, Russian supremacist, and Russian antisemetic drivel will not change that fact.

[Bear]

Or as my wife says of herself "Ethnic Russian from Ukraine". I'm sorry that I cannot answer the question about propaganda outlets. I just am not that gluent and didn't want to bother the family. I do well to distinguish between Russian and Ukrainian. Right now I am concentating on mastering the Cyrillic Alphabet. It is hard but I am making progress.

[Zaporozhets]

uther pendragon wrote:

<quoted text>
It is quite strange that folks in Ukraine seem to have no hang-ups over speaking two languages but so many folks outside the nation "foam at the mouth" over it.
Unlike North Americans most people see being multi-lingual as a plus. I guess it is on account of intellectual difficiencies on this side of the Atlantic.:)

It's not a question of "foaming at the mouth" over being bilingual. There was legitimate fear about the extinction of the Ukrainian language. During the 1920s, there was a "korenizatsiya" policy that actually favored the development of Ukrainian. After the 1920s, though, the state favored Russian. For a long time, Ukrainian Russophones didn't have to learn Ukrainian, but Ukrainophones were required to learn Russian.

I have read a lot of posts here from Russophones who have described Ukrainian as "the language of illiterate peasants."

[Red]

Zaporozhets wrote:

<quoted text>
It's not a question of "foaming at the mouth" over being bilingual. There was legitimate fear about the extinction of the Ukrainian language. During the 1920s, there was a "korenizatsiya" policy that actually favored the development of Ukrainian. After the 1920s, though, the state favored Russian. For a long time, Ukrainian Russophones didn't have to learn Ukrainian, but Ukrainophones were required to learn Russian.
I have read a lot of posts here from Russophones who have described Ukrainian as "the language of illiterate peasants."

It will be beneficial for monolingual Russophones in Ukraine to learn another language--including the only official language of Ukraine--namely Ukrainian.

[uther pendragon]

Zaporozhets wrote:

<quoted text>
It's not a question of "foaming at the mouth" over being bilingual. There was legitimate fear about the extinction of the Ukrainian language. During the 1920s, there was a "korenizatsiya" policy that actually favored the development of Ukrainian. After the 1920s, though, the state favored Russian. For a long time, Ukrainian Russophones didn't have to learn Ukrainian, but Ukrainophones were required to learn Russian.
I have read a lot of posts here from Russophones who have described Ukrainian as "the language of illiterate peasants."

I agree Ukraine should promote the language of Ukraine. My point is one can support Ukrainian without repression of Russian speakers. In eastern Ukraine there were centuries of russification so I hardly think punishing mono-lingual Russian speaking Ukrainians there wise. The whole country is not as culturally Ukrainian as Lviv.
The idea is for Russian speakers to be considered Ukrainian and not Russian.

[Bobo]

uther pendragon wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree Ukraine should promote the language of Ukraine. My point is one can support Ukrainian without repression of Russian speakers. In eastern Ukraine there were centuries of russification so I hardly think punishing mono-lingual Russian speaking Ukrainians there wise. The whole country is not as culturally Ukrainian as Lviv.
The idea is for Russian speakers to be considered Ukrainian and not Russian.

Russophones are not being "repressed" in Ukraine.

Monolingual Russophones are being encouraged to also learn Ukrainian, the sole official language of Ukraine so that they are fully integrated into the national fabric.

That desirable educational process is underway.