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“I am me who are you?”

Since: Jun 11

Talihau

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#1
Jul 8, 2011
 

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First of all, I would like to thank TOA personally for his commitments and admiration of TONGAN HISTORY especially in relation to Ha'amoa.

You have countless accounts on different forums and have obviously spend a tremendous amount of your time researching through Google, Wikipedia, books and mostly dissertations(phesis). Also have posted and started many discussion threads further expressing you passion of Ha'amoa's dominance and significance in the Pacific.

A colleague of mine mentioned to me about your forum popularity and how you have managed to provide hope for Ha'amoans in Pulotu to redeem themselves.

Here is the Truth:
Polynesian History that were before 1200 AD are all approximation and due to the lack written records. However, most of the written records of both Tongan and Samoan History are contradicting your claims.

Your Claims of the Tu'i Manu'a Empire having influence or dominance in Tonga is exactly the same as my claims of Ahoeitu (1st Tu'i Tonga) being buried in my backyard in Pelehake, Tongatapu.

Other claims, you refer to to signify the Tu'i Manu'a are the Ha'amoa man that provided the Land fishing Hook. Just like my claims of Ha'amoan tattoos originating from Fiji. It was taught by the daughters of the Tuifiti to Sau because of his hospitality.

If you analyse your cliams and mine, they're both unsubstantiated and no written records point to any of your claims, as they don't point to mine.
I hope this example can set the truth from the fable.

Now lets move on to the Basic truth. Around 1200 AD Ha'amoa was colonized by Tongans (note: not Tonga but Tongans. Many Tongans and Ha'amoans know this for a fact. It is also recorded in many books and journals of european voyagers.(Ella 1899, Fitisemanu and Wright 1970, Krämer 1994,
Stuebel 1995, Turner 1984)

Now what is the difference between what I just posted and what TOA posted?

I posted published records of events that happened in history. Toa posted information deduced from other forums.( note. Forums are unstantiated until you provide a link to published information. Also the internet is a fleeding medium containing fiction and non-fiction information. But that's totally a different topic and it requires its own thread.) Those forums/articles were probably created by him. Now Do you think that his information is legitimate? I didnt think so.

Tu'i Kanokupolu:
I concur with some of Toa's claims relating to the Tu'i Kanokupolu. But in the same light as the statement above, his exaggeration has provided more unsubstantiated information.

Truth:

17th Century, Tu'i Ha'atakalua a line of ruling chiefs that splitted from the Tu'i Tonga about six generations earlier. This 6th generation Tu'i Ha'atakalaua married a Ha'amoa woman named Limapo from Safata on Upolu. She came over to Tonga with a fine mat called "Maneafaiga'a". They had a son called Ngata and with the support of the rebels (Tongans not Samoans) became a very powerful chief. Hence, created a new line of Kings (Tu'i) called Flesh of Upolu in honour of his mothers homeland. Even up to the investiture ceremony of the King Tupou 4 in 1967, he was presented with the same kind of Ha'amoan fine mat.(Kaeppler 1999).

Agian, how is my information different from Toa's claim, that thousands of Ha'amoans reinforcing Ngata to overthrow the Tu'i Tonga. The difference again is the source of information.

The many influences of Ha'amoa in Tonga:
Linguistic, Monarchy System, ways of life does not point to any suggestion of Ha'amoa occupying Tonga.

Truth:
Of course there were influences from both sides. It was more of a mutual influence rather than a dominance of nations in this context. Once, Ha'amoa drove off the Tu'i Tonga they had trading connections with each other (including other islands too, like fiji) providing different kind of resources.

“I am me who are you?”

Since: Jun 11

Talihau

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#2
Jul 8, 2011
 
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
BUT if you want to refer to dominance, refer to this statement from (Herdrich 1991).
"...foundations for the chiefs’ houses, shrines for family-god worship, lookout posts to watch for invading fleets, platforms built by Samoan slave labour under Tongan control"

If that is what you were trying to protect, your homeland from than that is fine by me. I would understand your pasion for your country. But it gives you no right to provide false, unsubstantiated information that would bring down another's country or nation.

However, anyone can be an A&& and throw unjustified claims around the internet but if you were trying to find a significant point that proves your country's prowess and uniqueness. Then you should thought about posts before submitting it. Because you have misled so many of your fellow countrymen. You also asked for open debates about your submitted information. It begs in anyone's mind, what exactly are you trying to prove?

My final analysis of TOA (not all Ha'amoa)
His information is most likely off several dissertations and phesises. IF have ever written a dissertation or a phesis you would understand why it is not generally accepted as a legitimated source. Firstly, dissertation is something that is generated to prove a point of interest. It is provided to only express the student's ability to apply critical analysis and contradicting opinions. As I just mentioned, opinion of the what really happened. They deduced (Dr Mahine and Dr Ilaiu) which means assumed that these events happened. No offense to both scholars but the content of your work is being misused. I would not continue to discuss his references, because it speaks for itself.

Toa if you're trying to fill that void of uselessness and helplessness when you heard or read about the Tongan Empire and its prowess and strength. Your claims is what you call a Low Blow, it is only done by cowards and idiots. If your having difficulties accepting the truth i recommend that you should find something else that interest you. Like video games, social networking or something that you would recieve legitimate acknowledgement from. I know for sure that, that is what your looking for in these forums. I sincerely hope that through this thread your find what you were looking for.

I dont want to challenge anyone's knowledge of their homeland and history. Or have a debate with anyone about the listed information above. If you do inquire about them refer to the references at the bottom.

Kau'ulufonua said " Never debate or argue with idiots because they will draq you down their level and beat you with experience"

Kaeppler, A.L., 1978. Exchange patterns in goods and spouses: Fiji, Tonga, and
Samoa. Mankind, 11:246-52.

Ella, S., 1899. The war of Tonga and Samoa and the origin of the name Malietoa.
Journal of the Polynesian Society, 8:231-34.

Fitisemanu, S.L. and G. Wright, 1970. The Sacred Hens and Other Legends of Samoa.
Apia: Ministry for Youth Sports & Cultural Affairs.

Fletcher, M., 2001. Lonely Planet Tonga. Berkeley: Lonely Planet

Green, R.C., 1974. A review of portable artifacts from Western Samoa. In R.C. Green
and J.M. Davidson (eds), Archaeology in Western Samoa, Volume 2. Bulletin of
the Auckland Institute and Museum 7. Auckland, pp.245-74.
——1996. Prehistoric transfers of portable items during the Lapita horizon in
remote Oceania: A review. Bulletin of the Indo-Pacific Prehistory Association,
15:119-130.
——2002. Interpretations of Samoan fortifications. Archaeology in New Zealand,
45:309-24

Krämer, A., 1994 [1901]. The Samoa Islands: An Outline of a Monograph with
Particular Consideration of German Samoa. 2 volumes. Auckland: Polynesian
Press.

Herdrich, D.J., 1991. Towards an understanding of Samoan star mounds. Journal of
the Polynesian Society, 100:381-435.

“I am me who are you?”

Since: Jun 11

Talihau

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#3
Jul 8, 2011
 
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
BUT if you want to refer to dominance refer to this statement from (Herdrich 1991).
"...foundations for the chiefs’ houses, shrines for family-god worship, lookout posts to watch for invading fleets, platforms built by Samoan slave labour under Tongan control"

If that is what you were trying to protect, your homeland from than that is fine by me. I would understand your pasion for your country. But it gives you no right to provide false, unsubstantiated information that would bring down another's country or nation.

However, anyone can be an A&& and throw unjustified claims around the internet but if you were trying to find a significant point that proves your country's prowess and uniqueness. Then you should thought about posts before submitting it. Because you have misled so many of your fellow countrymen. You also asked for open debates about your submitted information. It begs in anyone's mind, what exactly are you trying to prove?

My final analysis of TOA (not all Ha'amoa)
His information is most likely off several dissertations and phesises. IF have ever written a dissertation or a phesis you would understand why it is not generally accepted as a legitimated source. Firstly, dissertation is something that is generated to prove a point of interest. It is provided to only express the student's ability to apply critical analysis and contradicting opinions. As I just mentioned, opinion of the what really happened. They deduced (Dr Mahine and Dr Ilaiu) which means assumed that these events happened. No offense to both scholars but the content of your work is being misused. I would not continue to discuss his references, because it speaks for itself.

Toa if you're trying to fill that void of uselessness and helplessness when you heard or read about the Tongan Empire and its prowess and strength. Your claims is what you call a Low Blow, it is only done by cowards and idiots. If your having difficulties accepting the truth i recommend that you should find something else that interest you. Like video games, social networking or something that you would recieve legitimate acknowledgement from. I know for sure that, that is what your looking for in these forums. I sincerely hope that through this thread your find what you were looking for.

I dont want to challenge anyone's knowledge of their homeland and history. Or have a debate with anyone about the listed information above. If you do inquire about them refer to the references at the bottom.

Kau'ulufonua said " Never debate or argue with idiots because they will draq you down their level and beat you with experience"

Kaeppler, A.L., 1978. Exchange patterns in goods and spouses: Fiji, Tonga, and
Samoa. Mankind, 11:246-52.

Ella, S., 1899. The war of Tonga and Samoa and the origin of the name Malietoa.
Journal of the Polynesian Society, 8:231-34.

Fitisemanu, S.L. and G. Wright, 1970. The Sacred Hens and Other Legends of Samoa.
Apia: Ministry for Youth Sports & Cultural Affairs.

Fletcher, M., 2001. Lonely Planet Tonga. Berkeley: Lonely Planet

Green, R.C., 1974. A review of portable artifacts from Western Samoa. In R.C. Green
and J.M. Davidson (eds), Archaeology in Western Samoa, Volume 2. Bulletin of
the Auckland Institute and Museum 7. Auckland, pp.245-74.
——1996. Prehistoric transfers of portable items during the Lapita horizon in
remote Oceania: A review. Bulletin of the Indo-Pacific Prehistory Association,
15:119-130.
——2002. Interpretations of Samoan fortifications. Archaeology in New Zealand,
45:309-24

Krämer, A., 1994 [1901]. The Samoa Islands: An Outline of a Monograph with
Particular Consideration of German Samoa. 2 volumes. Auckland: Polynesian
Press.

Herdrich, D.J., 1991. Towards an understanding of Samoan star mounds. Journal of
the Polynesian Society, 100:381-435.
sam11

Salt Lake City, UT

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#4
Jul 8, 2011
 
Malie......... Kau'ulufonua....fkhinohino'i atu 'a Toa moe kau Lafaa ko ena...hahahaha

TOA

“"TUI MANU'A LO'U ALI'I E"”

Since: Jun 09

Compton, CA

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#5
Jul 8, 2011
 

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KAUULUFONUA

You still cant seem to answer my question onto why Tonga has so much Samoan Influence such as Customs, traditions, dances, Clans, Royal Lines being half Samoan etc... etc... etc....

These are the pieces of evidence pointing to strong Samoan Influence and Origin that Tongans tend to ignore with a passion.

Now lets go to more Evidence of Samoan Influence in other islands:

SAMOIC LANGUAGES – ISLANDS WHO ORIGINATED FROM OR WERE HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY THE MOA FAMILY OR SA(MOA) IN PREHISTORY:

* East Uvean-Niuafo’ou
o Niuafo’ou (Nuiafo’ou , in Tonga)
o Wallisian or Uvean (Wallis (Uvea) in Wallis and Futuna)
* Ellicean
o Tuvaluan (Tuvalu)
o Kapingamarangi (Kapingamarangi in the Federated States of Micronesia)
o Nukuoro (Nukuoro in the Federated States of Micronesia)
o Ontong Java (Ontong Java in the Solomon Islands)
o Sikaiana (Sikaiana in the Solomon Islands)
o Takuu (Takuu in the eastern islands of Papua New Guinea)
o Nukumanu (Nukumanu in the eastern islands of Papua New Guinea)
o Nuguria (Nuguria in the eastern islands of Papua New Guinea)
* Futunic
o Anuta (Anuta in the Solomon Islands)
o East Futunan (Futuna in Wallis and Futuna)
o West Futunan or Futuna-Aniwa (Futuna and Aniwa in Melanesian New Caledonia)
o Emae (Emae in Vanuatu)
o Rennell (Rennell in the Solomon Islands)
o Mele-Fila (Mele in Vanuatu)
o Pileni (Pileni in the Solomon Islands)
o Tikopia (Tikopia in the Solomon Islands)
o West Uvean (Western Uvea , New Caledonia)
* Pukapukan
o Pukapukan (Pukapuka in the Cook Islands)
* Samoan
o Samoan (Samoa and American Samoa)
* Tokelauan
o Tokelauan (Tokelau, a dependency of New Zealand)
* Niuatoputapu
o Niuatoputapu (Niuatoputapu in Tonga)

etc.. etc... etc...

Now lets go to TONGIC LANGUAGE:

Islands originating from or heavily influenced by Tonga (South) in pre-history:

* Tonga
* Niue

Only 2 fall into the Tongic category but what is funny is Niue & Tonga also have various Samoan Terms as well.

There is too much evidence of Samoa in Tonga to just ignore it especially when it is still apart of Tonga today.

“I am me who are you?”

Since: Jun 11

Talihau

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#6
Jul 8, 2011
 

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First, so many influences of Ha'amoa in Tonga, yes it is true and I know that you know that it points to no invasions, dominance or anything in that category instead it shows inter-island trading routes and connections. The dances were performed by the Ha'amoan in respect of Tu'i Tonga (either of the Three kings). The reason for that custom or that style of dancing still existing in Tonga now because it shows the many different cultures and islands that Tongans visited or fought against. There are many other kind of Dancing in Tonga too ( Fijian, Uvea, etc) There are other influences from many other islands. But mainly Ha'amoa since your link was the closest.

Additionally, As I have stated in my first post, The customs and traditions that were implemented into the Tongan Culture was brought due to its effectiveness in Ha'amoa. It was used by the Tu'i Tonga whilst his reign in Ha'amoa.

There was inter-marriage between Tongan Royal Family and (Mälietoa, Tupua Tamasese,Mata'afa, Tuimaleali‘ifano) Ha'amoa Chieftan families. A number of cultural reasons have been given for this practice. There was often, especially in Tonga, an idea that the body of a high chief is taboo (Kaeppler 1978). Kaeppler continued to explain that Ha'amoan Chiefs needed to be married to foreign nations to avoid incest which is against Ha'amoan culture. This also affected the Tongan Royal Family, and other reasons such as if combing the blood of Tu'i Ha'atakalaua and Tu'i Tonga would bring an offspring that is much higher ranked than The Tu'i Tonga or The Tu'i Ha'atakalaua. This is why Ha'amoa is related to Tongans.

For example:
Salamäsina the first person in the History of Ha'amoa to hold all four (päpä) Highest Titles. She became Ha'amoa's first Queen as Meleisea describes it, in(1987).she was able to receive her paramount status precisely because of her genealogical connections to Tonga and Fiji, and even‘Uvea (Wallis Island).

Tu'i Tonga's daughter (Fitimaupaloga) married Samoanagalo and had a son named Sanalala. Tu'i Fiji's Daughter Totogata married Malietoa La'auli and had a daughter named Gasoloaiaolelagi. Who married Sanalala and they had two daughters named Le'atogaugatuitoga and Vaetamasoa. The Youngest Le'aTogaugautuitoga married Tonumaipe'a a son of the Tu'i uvea and had a daughter named So'oa'emalelagi. While the eldest daughter married Tuia'ana and had a son named Tamalelagi who married a Tongan girl named Vaetoeifaga and had Salamasina.(Schoeffel, 1987).

The Same goes both ways.

Tuitoga Tamatou’s daughter, Laufafa, marries the Samoan Tupa‘imatuna to give rise to many families of Savai‘i.

Tuitoga Talakaifaiki (the Tongan king from Legend 33,“Mälie Toa, Mälie Tau”) produces a son, Poluleuligaga, with a Samoan woman who is then adopted by Mälietoafaigä, a notorious cannibal chief of Sämoa.

Tuitoga Tuionu‘ulava sends his two daughters to Sämoa to marry into the Mälietoa family.

Tuitoga Tafueikimeimua travels to Sämoa to marry a girl from Säfata whose ancestors would become part of the Tuiä‘ana line.

Tuitoga Faisautele marries the Samoan girl, Vainu‘ulasi, a union that gives rise to many families in Fagaloa.

Tuitoga Puipuifatu comes to reside in Sämoa and takes a Samoan wife from Palauli. He leaves the chiefly title, Puipuifatu, in Palauli where it resides to this day.

Tuitoga Tupoufei‘a’s daughter, Oloitoa, marries into the Tagaloa family on Savai‘i.

Tuitoga Uluakimatata marries Sapioamoa

These Prove All the claims you asked of me. You also should credit my intelligence since I have enlighten you about so many things in so many ways. This will be my last Post because as I have said before, NEVER DEBATE OR ARGUE WITH IDIOTS BECAUSE THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

And Again, I ask you what is the difference between my posts and TOA's?

Meleisea, M., 1987. Lagaga: A Short History of Western Samoa. Suva: University of the South Pacific.

“I am me who are you?”

Since: Jun 11

Talihau

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#7
Jul 8, 2011
 
First, so many influences of Ha'amoa in Tonga, yes it is true and I know that you know that it points to no invasions, dominance or anything in that category instead it shows inter-island trading routes and connections. The dances were performed by the Ha'amoan in respect of Tu'i Tonga (either of the Three kings). The reason for that custom or that style of dancing still existing in Tonga now because it shows the many different cultures and islands that Tongans visited or fought against. There are many other kind of Dancing in Tonga too ( Fijian, Uvea, etc) There are other influences from many other islands. But mainly Ha'amoa since your link was the closest.

Additionally, As I have stated in my first post, The customs and traditions that were implemented into the Tongan Culture was brought due to its effectiveness in Ha'amoa. It was used by the Tu'i Tonga whilst his reign in Ha'amoa.

There was inter-marriage between Tongan Royal Family and (Mälietoa, Tupua Tamasese,Mata'afa, Tuimaleali‘ifano) Ha'amoa Chieftan families. A number of cultural reasons have been given for this practice. There was often, especially in Tonga, an idea that the body of a high chief is taboo (Kaeppler 1978). Kaeppler continued to explain that Ha'amoan Chiefs needed to be married to foreign nations to avoid incest which is against Ha'amoan culture. This also affected the Tongan Royal Family, and other reasons such as if combing the blood of Tu'i Ha'atakalaua and Tu'i Tonga would bring an offspring that is much higher ranked than The Tu'i Tonga or The Tu'i Ha'atakalaua. This is why Ha'amoa is related to Tongans.

For example:
Salamäsina the first person in the History of Ha'amoa to hold all four (päpä) Highest Titles. She became Ha'amoa's first Queen as Meleisea describes it, in(1987).she was able to receive her paramount status precisely because of her genealogical connections to Tonga and Fiji, and even‘Uvea (Wallis Island).

Tu'i Tonga's daughter (Fitimaupaloga) married Samoanagalo and had a son named Sanalala. Tu'i Fiji's Daughter Totogata married Malietoa La'auli and had a daughter named Gasoloaiaolelagi. Who married Sanalala and they had two daughters named Le'atogaugatuitoga and Vaetamasoa. The Youngest Le'aTogaugautuitoga married Tonumaipe'a a son of the Tu'i uvea and had a daughter named So'oa'emalelagi. While the eldest daughter married Tuia'ana and had a son named Tamalelagi who married a Tongan girl named Vaetoeifaga and had Salamasina.(Schoeffel, 1987).

The Same goes both ways. More Inter-island Marriages between Tonga and Ha'amoa

Tuitoga Tamatou’s daughter, Laufafa, marries the Samoan Tupa‘imatuna to give rise to many families of Savai‘i.

Tuitoga Talakaifaiki (the Tongan king from Legend 33,“Mälie Toa, Mälie Tau”) produces a son, Poluleuligaga, with a Samoan woman who is then adopted by Mälietoafaigä, a notorious cannibal chief of Sämoa.

Tuitoga Tuionu‘ulava sends his two daughters to Sämoa to marry into the Mälietoa family.

Tuitoga Tafueikimeimua travels to Sämoa to marry a girl from Säfata whose ancestors would become part of the Tuiä‘ana line.

Tuitoga Faisautele marries the Samoan girl, Vainu‘ulasi, a union that gives rise to many families in Fagaloa.

Tuitoga Puipuifatu comes to reside in Sämoa and takes a Samoan wife from Palauli. He leaves the chiefly title, Puipuifatu, in Palauli where it resides to this day.

Tuitoga Tupoufei‘a’s daughter, Oloitoa, marries into the Tagaloa family on Savai‘i.

Tuitoga Uluakimatata marries Sapioamoa

These Prove All the claims you asked of me. You also should credit my intelligence since I have enlighten you about so many things in so many ways. This will be my last Post because as I have said before, NEVER DEBATE OR ARGUE WITH IDIOTS BECAUSE THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

And Again, I ask you what is the difference between my posts and TOA's??

Meleisea, M., 1987. Lagaga: A Short History of Western Samoa. Suva: University of the South Pacific.

TOA

“"TUI MANU'A LO'U ALI'I E"”

Since: Jun 09

Compton, CA

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#8
Jul 8, 2011
 

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Kauulufonua

YOU STATED:

Additionally, As I have stated in my first post, The customs and traditions that were implemented into the Tongan Culture was brought due to its effectiveness in Ha'amoa. It was used by the Tu'i Tonga whilst his reign in Ha'amoa.

MY REPLY:

Your time lines seem a bit off for Tui Tonga Talakaifaiki lost authority in parts of Samoa in 1250AD.

You dont just stretch Samoan Influence all over your islands unless of course you are half SAMOAN which many Ancient Tui Tonga's were.

Another thing why is it the presence of Tui Tonga in Samoa didn't affect the Samoan Culture? Such as Customs? Dances? Traditions? Language? etc... But when you head to Tonga Samoan Influence is the most dominate in Tonga?

Key Elements onto why Samoa Culture was not affected by Tui Tonga:

1) Tui Manu'a (Head)
2) Tui Atua
3) Tui A'ana
4) Tui Tonga

All 4 were from the same Royal Bloodline and family which leads back to Manu'a in SAMOA. You read Malama Meleisea's writings did you seem to miss the part when she talks about Manu'a and Tui Manu'a?

Why Samoan Influence is strong in Tonga:

Besides Tui Manu'a Anciently conquering Tonga a more recent dynasty rose to power in Tonga in the 1600's known as the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty. This Dynasty stretched so much Samoan Influence all over Tonga etc....

* William Mariner

The same reason Lau Fiji practices Tongan Customs is the same reason why Tonga practices Samoan Customs.

what the

Sydney, Australia

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#9
Jul 8, 2011
 
will be our loss. malo e fakamaama
DrFeel

Auckland, New Zealand

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#10
Jul 8, 2011
 
Kauulufonua wrote:
First, so many influences of Ha'amoa in Tonga, yes it is true and I know that you know that it points to no invasions, dominance or anything in that category instead it shows inter-island trading routes and connections...."
Information overload, you just made Toas computer reboot into Safe Mode..
DrFeel

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#11
Jul 8, 2011
 

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TOA wrote:
Kauulufonua
YOU STATED:
Additionally, As I have stated in my first post, The customs and traditions that were implemented into the Tongan Culture was brought due to its effectiveness in Ha'amoa. It was used by the Tu'i Tonga whilst his reign in Ha'amoa.
MY REPLY:
Your time lines seem a bit off for Tui Tonga Talakaifaiki lost authority in parts of Samoa in 1250AD.
You dont just stretch Samoan Influence all over your islands unless of course you are half SAMOAN which many Ancient Tui Tonga's were.
Another thing why is it the presence of Tui Tonga in Samoa didn't affect the Samoan Culture? Such as Customs? Dances? Traditions? Language? etc... But when you head to Tonga Samoan Influence is the most dominate in Tonga?
Key Elements onto why Samoa Culture was not affected by Tui Tonga:
1) Tui Manu'a (Head)
2) Tui Atua
3) Tui A'ana
4) Tui Tonga
All 4 were from the same Royal Bloodline and family which leads back to Manu'a in SAMOA. You read Malama Meleisea's writings did you seem to miss the part when she talks about Manu'a and Tui Manu'a?
Why Samoan Influence is strong in Tonga:
Besides Tui Manu'a Anciently conquering Tonga a more recent dynasty rose to power in Tonga in the 1600's known as the Tui Kanokupolu Dynasty. This Dynasty stretched so much Samoan Influence all over Tonga etc....
* William Mariner
The same reason Lau Fiji practices Tongan Customs is the same reason why Tonga practices Samoan Customs.
Umm not really, the Tongans shed blood in Fiji to influence Lau, they did the same thing in Samoa, name one Samoan who shed blood in Tonga for Samoa? Or Fiji?

Stop trying to compare yourself to Tonga and Fiji's warrior culture, you fall short in the bloodthirsty catagory, backyard scraps dont count. If on the otherhand you presented yourself as one of the more gentle, enlightened and civilised cultures of polynesia you would be much more readily acknowledged.

TOA

“"TUI MANU'A LO'U ALI'I E"”

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#12
Jul 8, 2011
 

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DrFeel wrote:
<quoted text>
Umm not really, the Tongans shed blood in Fiji to influence Lau, they did the same thing in Samoa, name one Samoan who shed blood in Tonga for Samoa? Or Fiji?
Stop trying to compare yourself to Tonga and Fiji's warrior culture, you fall short in the bloodthirsty catagory, backyard scraps dont count. If on the otherhand you presented yourself as one of the more gentle, enlightened and civilised cultures of polynesia you would be much more readily acknowledged.
Tui Manu'a & Tui Kanokupolu

TOA

“"TUI MANU'A LO'U ALI'I E"”

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#13
Jul 8, 2011
 

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DrFeel wrote:
<quoted text>
Umm not really, the Tongans shed blood in Fiji to influence Lau, they did the same thing in Samoa, name one Samoan who shed blood in Tonga for Samoa? Or Fiji?
Stop trying to compare yourself to Tonga and Fiji's warrior culture, you fall short in the bloodthirsty catagory, backyard scraps dont count. If on the otherhand you presented yourself as one of the more gentle, enlightened and civilised cultures of polynesia you would be much more readily acknowledged.
Now tell me what Influences did Tonga have on Samoa when coming to culture?

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#14
Jul 8, 2011
 
mou hanga aa moutolu tautau upside a Toa lols.

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#15
Jul 8, 2011
 
*upside down*

“I am me who are you?”

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Talihau

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#16
Jul 8, 2011
 
Sorry about double posting it must be clitch in my browser.

Additional reading for anyone that is interested in the History.

Schoeffel, P., 1987. Rank, gender, and politics in ancient Samoa. Journal of Pacific History, 22:174-93.

Tcherkézoff, S., 2004. First Contacts in Polynesia: The Samoan Case (1722-1848).
Christchurch: Macmillan Brown Centre for Pacific Studies.

Tongic and Samoic (Hahaha). You further continue to prove yourself worthless by my judgement(or any common sensed person). I've mentioned before that you lack a grip on reality, adding your own ideas in to the history books. Is your assumptions elaborated with your peers and family? Are you acquiring definite status as a person that has unlocked the mysterious of our past? Are you an Alien ? Damn me! What are you trying to prove that the Moa Clan is the best ? if yes, would you like a biscuit?

Above is an example of how you approach this topic. You demand attention not only for Ha'amoa but mostly for yourself. I Feel sorry for the reasons of your existence, only to prove someone else is less rather than help.

But here is the Information your looking for:
Yes your categorization of the Groups are right, but what you failed to mention, but replaced it with Ha'amoa influencing the rest.

The Photo Polynesian Language is divided into two Subgroups: Tongic (consisting of Tongan and Niuean) and the Nuclear consisting of all the other Polynesian languages(not Samoic). Hence, this piece of information does not point to Ha'amoan dominance at all but more intended of how it relates to other Pacific Islands. The initial divergence among contemporary Polynesian languages is generally regarded as being between a Tongic branch and a Nuclear Polynesian branch (Pawley 1966, 1967, Biggs 1978, Clark 1979).

PLEASE READ THE FACTS STATED BEFORE AND READ THE SUPPORTING TEXTS. DO NOT RE-ASK QUESTION THAT WERE ALREADY ANSWERED IN PREVIOUS TEXT.

Toa your manu'a dynasty is your own local legend, meaning yourself. What? you think that your the only one that can deduce these things from the texts relating to both our historys. Do you really think that your that special? If your that special deduce this.

-Through the Tu'i Tonga and several other occasions that were mentioned above.( trading, peaceful connections, and the Tu'i Kanokupolu dynasty) But it does not mean that Ha'amoa shaped the present Tonga.

Your Talking about Time Frames. This is exactly the problem with our oral history. If you had any idea of the difficulties of isolating a particular story to a particular time than you would understand what I am talking about.

Forts, Ideology, Warfare, Connections with other islands, religions (wesleyan)etc. These are some of the Influences of Tonga in Ha'amoa. Toa you know these things why do you challenge yourself.
" The weakest is that Sämoa’s pre-contact relationship with Tonga may have been more continuous and one of distinct practicality (involving marriage, politics and war)" "In addition to trade objects, Tongans had a long tradition of offering their services as warriors in intra-archipelago warfare (Aswani and Graves 1998, Geraghty 1995). Tonga also appears to play an important intermediary role in the movement of goods and ideas through West Polynesia."

Ultimately, What your doing is wrong, Toa. Your quest to fulfil your dreams of belonging to a dominant group brings animosity between the two nations in light. I hope you accept your identity AND carry on with your life.

Goodbye and good luck
Last Post UNLESS YOU NEED CLARIFYING.

Kau'ulufonua said:

"NEVER DEBATE OR ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT BECAUSE HE WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO HIS LEVEL AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE"
DrFeel

Auckland, New Zealand

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#17
Jul 8, 2011
 
Like i said, Tongans were not known for their civility, tyrants never are.

Tongans learn't enlightenment from the gentle Samoans which led to Tongans seeking intermarriages with the Samoans as a way of obtaining these cultural advancements, ditto the matai system.

You need to get off the hard warrior conquering buzz because it has never suited the Samoan culture. Malietoa was a one off, and the only reason he has been elevated to such heights is because their foe was the dreaded Tongans! Do you think beating off Tuvaluans or Tokelauns would've garnered them so much respect for so long?

Final prognosis:

Samoa has been the Yin to Tongas Yang (*winks @ the teine samoa).

“I am me who are you?”

Since: Jun 11

Talihau

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#18
Jul 8, 2011
 

Judged:

1

Sorry about double posting it must be clitch in my browser.

Additional reading for anyone that is interested in the History.

Schoeffel, P., 1987. Rank, gender, and politics in ancient Samoa. Journal of Pacific History, 22:174-93.

Tcherkézoff, S., 2004. First Contacts in Polynesia: The Samoan Case (1722-1848).
Christchurch: Macmillan Brown Centre for Pacific Studies.

Tongic and Samoic (Hahaha). You further continue to prove yourself worthless by my judgement(or any common sensed person). I've mentioned before that you lack a grip on reality, adding your own ideas in to the history books. Is your assumptions elaborated with your peers and family? Are you acquiring definite status as a person that has unlocked the mysterious of our past? Are you an Alien ? Damn me! What are you trying to prove that the Moa Clan is the best ? if yes, would you like a biscuit?

Above is an example of how you approach this topic. You demand attention not only for Ha'amoa but mostly for yourself. I Feel sorry for the reasons of your existence, only to prove someone else is less rather than help.

But here is the Information your looking for:
Yes your categorization of the Groups are right, but what you failed to mention, but replaced it with Ha'amoa influencing the rest.

The Photo Polynesian Language is divided into two Subgroups: Tongic (consisting of Tongan and Niuean) and the Nuclear consisting of all the other Polynesian languages(not Samoic). Hence, this piece of information does not point to Ha'amoan dominance at all but more intended of how it relates to other Pacific Islands. The initial divergence among contemporary Polynesian languages is generally regarded as being between a Tongic branch and a Nuclear Polynesian branch (Pawley 1966, 1967, Biggs 1978, Clark 1979).

PLEASE READ THE FACTS STATED BEFORE AND READ THE SUPPORTING TEXTS. DO NOT RE-ASK QUESTION THAT WERE ALREADY ANSWERED IN PREVIOUS TEXT.

Toa your manu'a dynasty is your own local legend, meaning yourself. What? you think that your the only one that can deduce these things from the texts relating to both our historys. Do you really think that your that special? If your that special deduce this.

-Through the Tu'i Tonga and several other occasions that were mentioned above.( trading, peaceful connections, and the Tu'i Kanokupolu dynasty) But it does not mean that Ha'amoa shaped the present Tonga.

Your Talking about Time Frames. This is exactly the problem with our oral history. If you had any idea of the difficulties of isolating a particular story to a particular time than you would understand what I am talking about.

Forts, Ideology, Warfare, Connections with other islands, religions (wesleyan)etc. These are some of the Influences of Tonga in Ha'amoa. Toa you know these things why do you challenge yourself.
" The weakest is that Sämoa’s pre-contact relationship with Tonga may have been more continuous and one of distinct practicality (involving marriage, politics and war)" "In addition to trade objects, Tongans had a long tradition of offering their services as warriors in intra-archipelago warfare (Aswani and Graves 1998, Geraghty 1995). Tonga also appears to play an important intermediary role in the movement of goods and ideas through West Polynesia."

if you also notice, ha'amoa don't perform any tongan dances. Because Tongan's were superior at the time, hence only slaves provide entertainment.

Ultimately, What your doing is wrong, Toa. Your quest to fulfil your dreams of belonging to a dominant group brings animosity between the two nations in light. I hope you accept your identity AND carry on with your life.

Goodbye and good luck
Last Post UNLESS YOU NEED CLARIFYING.

Kau'ulufonua said:

"NEVER DEBATE OR ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT BECAUSE HE WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO HIS LEVEL AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE"

“I am me who are you?”

Since: Jun 11

Talihau

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#19
Jul 8, 2011
 

Judged:

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Which Tu'i Tonga were you refering to ? 1200 AD or 1700 AD ??

This is one:
In Tonga, Captain James Cook was told in 1777 that Tongans had conquered Sämoa and the Tongan royal family of Paulaho lived there (Beaglehole 1999)

Or this one:
Around 1200 AD Ha'amoa was colonized by Tongans (note: not Tonga but Tongans. Many Tongans and Ha'amoans know this for a fact. It is also recorded in many books and journals of european voyagers.(Ella 1899, Fitisemanu and Wright 1970, Krämer 1994, Stuebel 1995, Turner 1984)

This is why there are alot of influences of Ha'amoa in Tonga. Ha'amoa provided entertainment, such as dancing, pigeon hunting, wrestling. They also provided resources and a battle ground for warriors that are not known in tonga to prove themselves. Throughout Meleisea she describes a local legend by the name of Manu'a. But what you should realize is that we are only focusing on written information not legends. So please Only refer to Meleisea's documented materials not the legends.

Because I can start talking about Tangaloa, Tonga Eiki, and also the myth related to your tag line. Your satisfaction is a misnomer, which your never reach.

You talking about Tu'i Manu'a is the same as me talking about Zeus and hercules. Or the many myths in Tonga or around the world. They are called myths for a reason. There is a different that and History. It is Non-Fictional and Fictional.

TruePoly

San Jose, CA

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#20
Jul 8, 2011
 
Malo Toa...

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