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281 - 300 of 1,967 Comments Last updated Tuesday Aug 19
Indecent

Los Angeles, CA

#285 Apr 30, 2012
Malo wrote:
Love reading about this new Samoan "Narnia" that TOA's vivid imagination keeps pushing here in this forum. This is better than a Hollywood movie! Ok and than what happens next TOA? Oh wait don't tell me, somehow the Samoans also migrated to Scandinavia and were a part of Viking history as well. lol
Actually if you read carefully he's quoting Tongan scholars and queen Salote's book...you probably can charge him for copyright infringement..;)

Since: Feb 12

Auckland, New Zealand

#286 Apr 30, 2012
GOD wrote:
<quoted text>
Merchant
Dont quote me cos its not been confirmed due to my reading, but i sort of recall reading somewhere of a fleet of canoe's sent out to assist samoa? led by several ali'i's....sigh...more reading!
Thats pretty defined since u are, or should i say Mariner accounts of "seeing" Hawai'ians "from O'ahu" living in vavau? Unusual how he distinguished the different Islands by saying they were from O'ahu? I dont know what object or maybe different chothing he may have noticed to confirm they were from O'ahu by seeing?
GOD

from the texts ive been reading in william Mariners accounts he refers to knowing a native of the sandwhich islands (tooitooi) who was an acting guide on the port au prince before it had been burnt to the bottom of the sea.

when mariner was in vavau or how he spelt it (vavoo) he claimed to have spoken with these sandwhich islanders from oowahoo (oahu) lol very funny.. but the book is very violent in his intimate stories with the great Warlord Finau Ulukalala.

Since: Feb 12

Auckland, New Zealand

#287 Apr 30, 2012
Indecent wrote:
<quoted text>
Honestly if Kramer can't put names to his source really he ain't got nothing...
Indecent

i believe Kramer is quoting from the expeditions of (Wilkes) in Samoa.

"At the end of October, Wilkes cut across 'Upolu from just west of Apia, and found, on the top of the inland ridge at c.800 metres altitude,“…a clearing…in which were two mounds of earth, each about fifteen feet high, and one hundred and twenty feet in circumference; several stone walls were also seen”(Wilkes 1845:2:94, 95). Wilkes was told of a tradition that the fort was built by Tongan warriors from Vava'u, for the purpose of preventing communication between the north and south coasts. There were 60 cm diameter trees growing on the mounds, and the Tongan invasion in question was said by the missionaries to have taken place about 1760-70."

furthermore Kramer quotes redings from former Samoan British consulate in Samoa William Churchward.

"In the early 1880s, in the course of numerous forays into the bush on the west end of 'Upolu, William Churchward, acting British Consul in Samoa, came across several defended settlements. One of these was found in 1881 while on a trip from Suisega to Lotofaga, in Western 'Upolu:

we started up the almost perpendicular incline in front of us. On arriving at the top we found evident traces of a parapet and ditch, no doubt the work in days of old of the Tongans, who at one time held almost entire possession of Samoa, and portions of whose handiwork in fortifications and roads may be met with all over the island of Upolu (Churchward 1887:109)."

if Kramer is quoting people who actually saw the forts and was actually told by locals the ledgends of the historical landmarks that is as close as one gets to the truth..

however im not to fuss with this topic it doesnt interest me as its pretty trivial Tonga's occupation in Samoa, what im more interested in is Tui Manua and Tui Pulotu's links to Tui Tonga.

malo
GOD

United States

#288 Apr 30, 2012
XMerchant wrote:
<quoted text>
GOD
from the texts ive been reading in william Mariners accounts he refers to knowing a native of the sandwhich islands (tooitooi) who was an acting guide on the port au prince before it had been burnt to the bottom of the sea.
when mariner was in vavau or how he spelt it (vavoo) he claimed to have spoken with these sandwhich islanders from oowahoo (oahu) lol very funny.. but the book is very violent in his intimate stories with the great Warlord Finau Ulukalala.
Okay Mechant,

Im gettin where ur comin from, but im not square with what Mariners claiming...lets say for the sake of argument we're talking bout very early 1800's, stow-a-way's from either side probably occured during this time frame and later, and to even have a smidget of understanding let alone comprehending the vowel laden language puzzles me? The same can be said of Samoa and Toga. Which is why its so hard to draw conclusivness from any book, but rather as a guide to attempt to sniff out truths from them. I'll alway approach it as such, nothing more, nothing less, just good reading!

Good Hunting my friend!!

Since: May 11

Auckland, New Zealand

#289 Apr 30, 2012
XMerchant wrote:
<quoted text>
so its not the most ancient high title of all.. Tui Pulotu of Fisi?
well...Ulelahi reckons it wasn't a physical location but a different realm all together. so in a way the Tu'i Tonga was a Tu'i Pulotu = Spiritual leader

Since: Feb 12

Auckland, New Zealand

#290 Apr 30, 2012
GOD wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay Mechant,
Im gettin where ur comin from, but im not square with what Mariners claiming...lets say for the sake of argument we're talking bout very early 1800's, stow-a-way's from either side probably occured during this time frame and later, and to even have a smidget of understanding let alone comprehending the vowel laden language puzzles me? The same can be said of Samoa and Toga. Which is why its so hard to draw conclusivness from any book, but rather as a guide to attempt to sniff out truths from them. I'll alway approach it as such, nothing more, nothing less, just good reading!
Good Hunting my friend!!
God

thats it! i mean really we can only take what we read with a grain of salt as we really have no written historical accounts of what actually has taken place.. it is good reading to me, and most of what im reading is very new to me..

thanks for the heads up friend

malo
Indecent

Los Angeles, CA

#291 Apr 30, 2012
XMerchant wrote:
<quoted text>
Indecent
i believe Kramer is quoting from the expeditions of (Wilkes) in Samoa.
"At the end of October, Wilkes cut across 'Upolu from just west of Apia, and found, on the top of the inland ridge at c.800 metres altitude,“…a clearing…in which were two mounds of earth, each about fifteen feet high, and one hundred and twenty feet in circumference; several stone walls were also seen”(Wilkes 1845:2:94, 95). Wilkes was told of a tradition that the fort was built by Tongan warriors from Vava'u, for the purpose of preventing communication between the north and south coasts. There were 60 cm diameter trees growing on the mounds, and the Tongan invasion in question was said by the missionaries to have taken place about 1760-70."
furthermore Kramer quotes redings from former Samoan British consulate in Samoa William Churchward.
"In the early 1880s, in the course of numerous forays into the bush on the west end of 'Upolu, William Churchward, acting British Consul in Samoa, came across several defended settlements. One of these was found in 1881 while on a trip from Suisega to Lotofaga, in Western 'Upolu:
we started up the almost perpendicular incline in front of us. On arriving at the top we found evident traces of a parapet and ditch, no doubt the work in days of old of the Tongans, who at one time held almost entire possession of Samoa, and portions of whose handiwork in fortifications and roads may be met with all over the island of Upolu (Churchward 1887:109)."
if Kramer is quoting people who actually saw the forts and was actually told by locals the ledgends of the historical landmarks that is as close as one gets to the truth..
however im not to fuss with this topic it doesnt interest me as its pretty trivial Tonga's occupation in Samoa, what im more interested in is Tui Manua and Tui Pulotu's links to Tui Tonga.
malo
Key words out of your comment "told by locals" no name in place....most Manu'a history wer told by Tauanu'u which is Manu'as Tusitala(history holder) see how names can be put to sources...FE tonga being name after a Tui Manu'a Tui Tonga Fatafehi's claim...
Indecent

Los Angeles, CA

#292 Apr 30, 2012
She weighed anchor for what was destined to be the last time in seven fathoms water off the North West Point of Lifuka Island. A number of chiefs visited the ship on the evening of her arrival and brought with them barbecued hogs, yams and a native of Hawaii who spoke some English informing Captain Brown that the Tongans had only friendly intentions. The Port au Prince also had Hawaiian crew who did not trust the situation and expressed concern to the captain that the Tongans were feigning friendliness while planning attack. Captain Brown chose to ignore the warnings, therein signing his own death warrant and that of many of his crew.

Since: Feb 12

Auckland, New Zealand

#293 Apr 30, 2012
Indecent wrote:
<quoted text>
Key words out of your comment "told by locals" no name in place....most Manu'a history wer told by Tauanu'u which is Manu'as Tusitala(history holder) see how names can be put to sources...FE tonga being name after a Tui Manu'a Tui Tonga Fatafehi's claim...
Indecent

yes brother i understand that part by tell me what reasons would Wilkes and Churchill have to fabricate such stories in those days? if the locals said these things and they recorded it what does it matter who was telling what? its not like they had a Tongan guide or something? lol

malo
GOD

United States

#294 Apr 30, 2012
Ukamea wrote:
<quoted text>well...Ulelahi reckons it wasn't a physical location but a different realm all together. so in a way the Tu'i Tonga was a Tu'i Pulotu = Spiritual leader
....or a Tui Manu'a, right ukamea.
Indecent

Los Angeles, CA

#295 Apr 30, 2012
XMerchant wrote:
<quoted text>
Indecent
yes brother i understand that part by tell me what reasons would Wilkes and Churchill have to fabricate such stories in those days? if the locals said these things and they recorded it what does it matter who was telling what? its not like they had a Tongan guide or something? lol
malo
Why didn't wilkes know the people in charge of the locals...;) he gets random info on a war during the 1760-1770 which is very current to his time but yet details of this war is unheard of..;)

Since: May 11

Auckland, New Zealand

#296 Apr 30, 2012
GOD wrote:
<quoted text>
....or a Tui Manu'a, right ukamea.
Tu'i manuka is the opposite realm of death..Pulotu = Is faith in yourself etc look back to some of Ulelahis post he was quite the expert

Since: May 11

Auckland, New Zealand

#297 Apr 30, 2012
Indecent wrote:
<quoted text>
Why didn't wilkes know the people in charge of the locals...;) he gets random info on a war during the 1760-1770 which is very current to his time but yet details of this war is unheard of..;)
was this the time Tu'i Tonga Pau told cook that samoa was part of his dominion?....maybe his claims weren't as far fetched as some may claim

Since: Feb 12

Auckland, New Zealand

#298 Apr 30, 2012
Indecent wrote:
<quoted text>
Why didn't wilkes know the people in charge of the locals...;) he gets random info on a war during the 1760-1770 which is very current to his time but yet details of this war is unheard of..;)
Indecent

heres another version of Kramer

"German anthropologist Augustin Krämer was to describe.

Krämer was in Samoa between 1897 and 1899, and had little to say on fortifications or warfare. What he did note tended to suggest that there were only minor differences between the examples occupied or built for the last stages of - 393 fighting (in Western Samoa, which Krämer photographed in use) and those of more remote times:

The construction of the forts,'olo, is still fairly similar to that of the old time ones, and the illustrations given here, which are taken from the war of 1896, may therefore be confidently considered as typical of the old time. During the Tongan invasion, the Tongans constructed numerous forts on every side in Samoa, their stone ramparts and the highways connecting them are still shown everywhere (Krämer 1902-3:1:591).


The forts illustrated by Krämer are pretty scrappy affairs, with rough-looking stockades and a look-out platform up a tree, and appear to be fairly temporary responses to local shoot-outs (Krämer 1902-3:340, 341). A similar construction, also in Western Samoa, and dated to about 1890, is illustrated in Moors (1986:opp.53); the walls appear to be piles of wood, and the look-out post is again a tree platform. Krämer notes that William Mariner's description of a Tongan fort is applicable to a Samoan one, and that they were usually built on low mountain ridges."

a mixture of civil wars and Tongan warriors meddling in Samoan domestic affairs could have lead to the construction of such ancient landmarks..

how ever lets move away from this and talk about the links of Tui Pulotu and Tui Manua to TuiTonga.

malo

Since: Feb 12

Auckland, New Zealand

#299 Apr 30, 2012
Ukamea wrote:
<quoted text>was this the time Tu'i Tonga Pau told cook that samoa was part of his dominion?....maybe his claims weren't as far fetched as some may claim
Ukamea

please explain further

you stated that Tui Tonga Pau spoke to Cook when he visited the islands in 1777 ive double checked and the dates concur with what you claim..

can you put up any links or texts that we can read to varify that claim?

sorry but i cant take your word for it

malo
Indecent

Los Angeles, CA

#300 Apr 30, 2012
Ukamea wrote:
<quoted text>was this the time Tu'i Tonga Pau told cook that samoa was part of his dominion?....maybe his claims weren't as far fetched as some may claim
Fuanunuiava - took the power from his uncle in or around 1795, but continued his policy; joined F&#299;nau &#699;Uluk&#257;lala in the civil war of 1799; died in 1810

Dates are way off
Indecent

Los Angeles, CA

#301 Apr 30, 2012
XMerchant wrote:
<quoted text>
Indecent
heres another version of Kramer
"German anthropologist Augustin Krämer was to describe.
Krämer was in Samoa between 1897 and 1899, and had little to say on fortifications or warfare. What he did note tended to suggest that there were only minor differences between the examples occupied or built for the last stages of - 393 fighting (in Western Samoa, which Krämer photographed in use) and those of more remote times:
The construction of the forts,'olo, is still fairly similar to that of the old time ones, and the illustrations given here, which are taken from the war of 1896, may therefore be confidently considered as typical of the old time. During the Tongan invasion, the Tongans constructed numerous forts on every side in Samoa, their stone ramparts and the highways connecting them are still shown everywhere (Krämer 1902-3:1:591).
The forts illustrated by Krämer are pretty scrappy affairs, with rough-looking stockades and a look-out platform up a tree, and appear to be fairly temporary responses to local shoot-outs (Krämer 1902-3:340, 341). A similar construction, also in Western Samoa, and dated to about 1890, is illustrated in Moors (1986:opp.53); the walls appear to be piles of wood, and the look-out post is again a tree platform. Krämer notes that William Mariner's description of a Tongan fort is applicable to a Samoan one, and that they were usually built on low mountain ridges."
a mixture of civil wars and Tongan warriors meddling in Samoan domestic affairs could have lead to the construction of such ancient landmarks..
how ever lets move away from this and talk about the links of Tui Pulotu and Tui Manua to TuiTonga.
malo
What are you on repeat...lmaooo copying and pasting kramers work don't make you any different then Toa...;) this the same Kramer that speaks of the Tui Manu'a empire but yet Tongans don't wanna hear it...what is this build your own history to your likings

Since: Feb 12

Auckland, New Zealand

#302 Apr 30, 2012
Indecent wrote:
<quoted text>
Fuanunuiava - took the power from his uncle in or around 1795, but continued his policy; joined F&#299;nau &#699;Uluk&#257;lala in the civil war of 1799; died in 1810
Dates are way off
Indecent

Wilkes was told of a tradition that the fort was built by Tongan warriors from Vava'u, for the purpose of preventing communication between the north and south coasts. There were 60 cm diameter trees growing on the mounds, and the Tongan invasion in question was said by the missionaries to have taken place about 1760-70.

Ukamea pointed out that Cook witnessed TuiTonga (Paulaho) Inaji ceremony in 1777.

Ive double checked the dates and they concur.. Fuanunuiava didnt take the power from his uncle Paulaho until 1795.

Ukamea has made a claim that Paulaho told Cook that Samoa was part of his domain..(ive asked Ukamea to produce a text varifying this claim)

IF... IF Ukamea can prove that is what Paulaho said to Cook then we have "reasonable" indicators to believe that TuiTonga was still active in Upolu.

let us wait for Ukamea to back his claim up
Indecent

Los Angeles, CA

#303 Apr 30, 2012
Ukamea wrote:
<quoted text>was this the time Tu'i Tonga Pau told cook that samoa was part of his dominion?....maybe his claims weren't as far fetched as some may claim
This the same Tui Tonga fatafehi paulaho that claimed Tui Manu'a named the Tongan islands after him....

Since: Feb 12

Auckland, New Zealand

#304 Apr 30, 2012
Indecent wrote:
<quoted text>
What are you on repeat...lmaooo copying and pasting kramers work don't make you any different then Toa...;) this the same Kramer that speaks of the Tui Manu'a empire but yet Tongans don't wanna hear it...what is this build your own history to your likings
Indecent

Uso, forgive me if i come across like im on repeat... this stuff is all new to me.. im just tryng to use different perspectives such as Wilkes, Churchward, Churchill, Kramer, Wright on old fortifications in Samoa.

(note) i dont make my own claims up..

and i do want to hear about Tui Manua, i said before that i never knew about this ledgendary figure and am wanting to know more about him..or the Title itself..

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