You slavic subhumans are not Aryan...
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#96 Apr 7, 2013
Shem wrote:
The only reasonable theory is that if Rurik did come from abroad and was not a Local - then his birthplace was none other than Reric - a culturally Slavic stronghold which was a Viking centre so they could easily cover distances by Sea from Northern Germany to Novgorod.
Do you have any archeological evidence that the Pomeranian merchants ever entered the Novgorod & Volga waterways?

There is ample evidence of those waterways used by local finnic peoples; since the 7th century there is also evidence of north-germanic varjags, who got that permission from the locals by some successful raids. To my knowledge there is no evidence of any Pomeranian presence at the Novgorod & Volga waterways in the interval of 7-9th century AD.
Shem wrote:
I can much more easily sea linguistic connection between Rurik and Rerik, than what the Normanists suggest and somehow connect that Rus borrowed the name and came from ROSLAGEN, first of all the place ROSLAGEN was never even found to this day - nobody knows what geographic location this even refers to
You should educate yourself some more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roslagen

The name of that region in the finnish language was Ruotsi, in estonian it was Rootsi. In both countries that name eventually came to designate the whole Sweden.

The name comes from the baltic-finnic word "aeru(t)si" = "by oars".
Shem wrote:
By they way the longships which were used in Kievan Rus are an exact copy of the Slavic Obotrite viking ships they used in the Baltic, it's different from Scandinavian!
The earliest known Baltic Sea longship with a keel (and a sail) has been found in Saaremaa (Salme).
It is also known that the ship technique of baltic-finns was a bit different from the scandinavians.

Since: Apr 13

Podolsk, Russia

#97 Apr 7, 2013
How is it Aryans never existed?

Aryans = Indoeuropeans.

Aryans originated in southern Russia.
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#99 Apr 7, 2013
There is a village called Russow just 5 km south of Rerik - the ancient Slavic Viking stronghold. I am sure it's all just some f*cking coincidence, the uninhabited Roslagen is the sh*t!:)
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#100 Apr 7, 2013
Shem wrote:
There is a village called Russow just 5 km south of Rerik - the ancient Slavic Viking stronghold. I am sure it's all just some f*cking coincidence, the uninhabited Roslagen is the sh*t!:)
And there was a medieval ethnically ESTONIOAN chronicle named Balthasar Rossow in Tallinn at the time of the Livonian War.
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#101 Apr 7, 2013
Russow is of slavic Obotrite origin, just like the neighbouring village Roggow. Rog - means Horn in Russian, and Roggow( or Roggov), belonging to a Horn. Russov is an obvious slavic root, just like any Slavic last name. I assume you know some Russian. You should know that Russov in any Slavic language translates as a place belonging to the Rus, or coming from the Rus. Which part of this doesn't make sense to you. How much more obvious should it be?:)

Where are you going with those Roslagen and Rooutsi, most people in Russia wouldn't even know how to pronounce, it doesn't make any sense at all? Do you even get it or not?:) Roslagen and Rooutsi is a completely insane name origin theory..
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#102 Apr 7, 2013
Shem wrote:
Russow is of slavic Obotrite origin, just like the neighbouring village Roggow. Rog - means Horn in Russian, and Roggow( or Roggov), belonging to a Horn. Russov is an obvious slavic root, just like any Slavic last name. I assume you know some Russian. You should know that Russov in any Slavic language translates as a place belonging to the Rus, or coming from the Rus. Which part of this doesn't make sense to you. How much more obvious should it be?:)
Where are you going with those Roslagen and Rooutsi, most people in Russia wouldn't even know how to pronounce, it doesn't make any sense at all? Do you even get it or not?:) Roslagen and Rooutsi is a completely insane name origin theory..
I guess you missed the original estonian name of Balthasar Russow = Risso / Rissa.

What you don't seem to understand, is that all the north-Russian waterways were originally used by finno-ugrians. And in the medieval times the vikings came along. One cannot speak of slavs as carriers on those waterways before the birth of the Novgorod state (actually a federation).

It was the local finnic peoples who decided which seafarers were permitted to those waterways, and who were denied. Scandinavians gained the right of passage via treaties and raids during the 7-9th centuries AD. There is no record of Polabian slavic seafarers on this part of the Baltic Sea.

There is a record of a small group of people called venden, who settled amongst the Metsepole livonians near the settlement of Võnnu (Cesis), but those venden spoke baltic-finnic - just like the rest of us here.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#103 Apr 7, 2013
Actually, venden settled near the Koiva livonians, not the Metsepole livonians. Small difference.
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#104 Apr 7, 2013
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/800/in...

None of these names even appear on these maps. Look carefully you can see the obotrites and then the Ilmen Slavs, Krivichi, Radimichi and Drevlyans to the East. I think it's around this time that a group of Obotrites - the Rus went to where the Ilmen Slavs were and created a new settlement which later absorbed the Krivichi, Radimichi and other east Slavs to become the Rus. None of the finno-ugric tribes even apear on this map. It's sad, must be some kind of an anti-finno-ugric conspiracy :)
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#105 Apr 7, 2013
Shem wrote:
http://www.euratlas.net/histor y/europe/800/index.html
None of these names even appear on these maps. Look carefully you can see the obotrites and then the Ilmen Slavs, Krivichi, Radimichi and Drevlyans to the East. I think it's around this time that a group of Obotrites - the Rus went to where the Ilmen Slavs were and created a new settlement which later absorbed the Krivichi, Radimichi and other east Slavs to become the Rus. None of the finno-ugric tribes even apear on this map. It's sad, must be some kind of an anti-finno-ugric conspiracy :)
That is just the usual indo-aryan way - to cover up the past.

Do you actually think that the hydronym Ilmen might be of slavic origin??? Think again.

At the time when the Novgorod state was born, the slavs had barely reached Lake Ilmen from the south. And even the southern 2/5 of Novgorod region were a mix of local native baltic-finns, converted balts, converted slavs, and only a rather small part of the population was migrated slavs.

Or do you also think that because that particular map does not show ANY baltic-finns besides curonians, that evidently, baltic-finns did not exist??? Get real.
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#106 Apr 7, 2013
Actually I'm trying to keep it real. I have no doubt that some Baltic and Finnic tribes were absorbed at different point in history of creation of the Rus state, but to say that they ever played any leading role in its creation is ridiculous, as this map shows Slavs clearly dominated the scene in the west and the east around 800 AD - the time of creation of the Rus state, so we can't speak of any significant Balto-Finnic involvement in creation of Russia... :) This is what is called keeping it real :)
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#107 Apr 7, 2013
Actually Ugro-Finns played a bigger role in Russia later on after the initial creation of Rus. Even today there are many ugro-finnic tribes in Russia - Mari, Mordva, Some peoples in Karelia, but they all look noticeably different from Russians/Belarisians/Ukrainian s. Many were absorbed into the Russian ethnicity but that influence was very minor :)
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#108 Apr 7, 2013
For example I can easily see the obvious resemblance between Russian/Belarusian/Ukrainian and the Poles and Czechs. All these peoples carry a realtively iniform genome. Quite different from the Ugro-Finns. :)
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#109 Apr 7, 2013
Well tarmo I have to thank you've just handed me further proof to my claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmen_Slavs

You can read that even wikipedia things that Ilmen Slavs - and the initial Russian settlement of Novgorod had connection with the Polabian Slavs in culture and dialect :)
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#110 Apr 7, 2013
Shem wrote:
Well tarmo I have to thank you've just handed me further proof to my claims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmen_Slavs
You can read that even wikipedia things that Ilmen Slavs - and the initial Russian settlement of Novgorod had connection with the Polabian Slavs in culture and dialect :)
I see only one reference on that Wikipedia article, and even that suggests that slavic presence al lake Ilmen predating the 10th century is unlikely.

The wiki article on the Old Novgorod Dialect mentions only once a similarity with western slavic dialects.

The kurgans also appeared on the estonians lands at that period, while there is no indication of any west-slavic migration to Estonia. Thus, the kurgans are likely NOT an indication of slavic immigrants.

Agriculture was well developed on these neighbourhoods already.
The Baltic Clint and limestone deposits make those soils fertile.
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#111 Apr 7, 2013
I don't quite understand why you see as the predominantly Slavic theory of creation of Rus as some kind of a personal attack on Estonia :)

I never met any Estonians in my life so you're an interesting case for me :)

I met some finns, who expressed that they felt the most connected to the Russians than any other people in the region emotionally and spiritually. There's probably some truth to it, at least from historic perspective Finns and Slavs never really had problems with each other. So let's leave it at that. So there were some Finns in Ladoga who spoke Slavic, to me they are still Slavs, in my understanding of things :)
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#112 Apr 7, 2013
Shem wrote:
I don't quite understand why you see as the predominantly Slavic theory of creation of Rus as some kind of a personal attack on Estonia :)
For the simple reason that it is false.

Indo-europeans constantly cover up and diminish or just neglect the role of finno-ugrians.

We were here. We are still here.
Shem wrote:
I never met any Estonians in my life so you're an interesting case for me :)
I met some finns, who expressed that they felt the most connected to the Russians than any other people in the region emotionally and spiritually.
That is a generalisation, and I seriosly doubt that most finns see Russians as emotionally and spiritually closest to them. The closest to finns are their immediate neighbours: estonians, swedes, karelians, samis. While finns feel connected to swedes and karelians, they also feel a distinction between them.

Let me put it this way - of all the neighbours of finns, estonians are the only ones with whom finns have not had any military conflicts in the past. And of all the neighbours of estonians, finns are the only ones with whom estonians have not had any military conflicts in the past. Can you think of any other pair of neighbouring nations with a similar past record?

On the level of whole nations, estonians feel closest to finns and other baltic-finnic nations, next come latvians, then other finno-ugric nations and scandinavians. Russians as a whole nation are not on top of our list.
Shem wrote:
There's probably some truth to it, at least from historic perspective Finns and Slavs never really had problems with each other.
That is an understatement of a century.
I am sure that finns have a different opinion from yours.
Shem wrote:
So let's leave it at that. So there were some Finns in Ladoga who spoke Slavic, to me they are still Slavs, in my understanding of things :)
We may as well leave it as that.
It is like the fennoswedes in Finland - are they finns or are they swedes? Or something in between?
Shem

Bangkok, Thailand

#113 Apr 8, 2013
Well just like I suggested earlier you should take this to a separate finno-ugrian forum where you can promote the role of your little country in world history :) Personally I find the whole topic of finno-ugrians rather boring, that's why I don't even visit any finno-ugrian or Estonian forums :)
Anonymous

Brewster, NY

#115 Apr 8, 2013
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
I see only one reference on that Wikipedia article, and even that suggests that slavic presence al lake Ilmen predating the 10th century is unlikely.
The wiki article on the Old Novgorod Dialect mentions only once a similarity with western slavic dialects.
The kurgans also appeared on the estonians lands at that period, while there is no indication of any west-slavic migration to Estonia. Thus, the kurgans are likely NOT an indication of slavic immigrants.
Agriculture was well developed on these neighbourhoods already.
The Baltic Clint and limestone deposits make those soils fertile.
Latest evidence puts Kurgan expansion & R1a haplogroup expansion & Corded ware expansion out of Southern Poland in Europe!!!

So.... Why does Estonia have rather high R1a haplogroup!?

...
..... It seems really that Estonians & Russians are both merely a mix of people from Poland & Finno-Ugrics.

With Estonians & Russians both being.

A mix of R1a Paternal haplogroup + H Maternal haplogroup out of Poland

mixed with N Paternal haplogroup & U5 Maternal haplogroup of Finno-Ugrics

Lithuania seems to retain the most Indo-European DNA though on the Maternal line only.... That is why Lithuanians keep coming out the most Northern European & Eastern European by DNA.

Poland seems to retain the most Indo=European DNA on the Paternal line.

Poland seems to have the most pure Indo-European Paternal DNA & Lithuania the most pure Indo-European Maternal DNA.

My guess is Poland was the most pure Indo-Europeans fully.

... Only Lithuania retained more Maternal DNA on the Maternal line than Poland due to Poland mixing with Neolithic Farmers from South Europe / West Asia from the South & Western German Germanics in higher amounts than Lithuania did.
Anonymous

Brewster, NY

#116 Apr 8, 2013
Shem wrote:
Russians/Belarisians/Ukrainian s. Many were absorbed into the Russian ethnicity but that influence was very minor :)
You forgot Poland!!

Yeah.... Clearly millions worth of Polish people have become Russian since the Partitions of Poland.

Russians pushed Russification on Polish people after the Partitions.

In many parts of Belarus & Ukraine large Polish populations were left over.

Many whom also just married with Russians over time to become part of the Russian gene pool.
Anonymous

Brewster, NY

#117 Apr 8, 2013
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess you missed the original estonian name of Balthasar Russow = Risso / Rissa.
What you don't seem to understand, is that all the north-Russian waterways were originally used by finno-ugrians. And in the medieval times the vikings came along. One cannot speak of slavs as carriers on those waterways before the birth of the Novgorod state (actually a federation).
It was the local finnic peoples who decided which seafarers were permitted to those waterways, and who were denied. Scandinavians gained the right of passage via treaties and raids during the 7-9th centuries AD. There is no record of Polabian slavic seafarers on this part of the Baltic Sea.
There is a record of a small group of people called venden, who settled amongst the Metsepole livonians near the settlement of Võnnu (Cesis), but those venden spoke baltic-finnic - just like the rest of us here.
So... I got a in depth genetic study including Estonians & Komi!!!

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/693/webga1...

Click in to zoom in & move around this DNA map

EE = Estonia obviously.

So... We do see that Estonians seem to be like Lithuanians but a little closer to Finland by DNA!!

We see Komi are like the Chuvash by DNA!!

..
.... So... You want to bet that Lithuanians are the most pure European!?

Want to bet that Lithuanians are also the most pure Indo-Europeans as wells!?

...
..... It really seems that Chuvash / Komi area is probably the core Finno-Ugric DNA cluster.

Finland & Estonians are just a mix between Chuvash / Komi & Lithuanian Indo-Europeans!!!

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