Dead 60 years, Stalin's influence lingers in Putin's Russia

Mar 5, 2013 Full story: Reuters 533

A conference held under the auspices of the Russian Orthodox Church is perhaps the last place you might expect to hear a good word said about Josef Stalin.

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Since: Sep 12

In your mind.

#334 Mar 9, 2013
Robespierre, the same can be said about Stalin, yet you have no problem having him as your idol!

“Trust no one in politics.”

Since: Apr 08

Pompano Beach, FL

#335 Mar 9, 2013
Robespierre wrote:
<quoted text>
Franco was a tyrant just like Hitler. His rule was absolutely ruthless from begining to end; he lasted almost 40 years, remember.
So, the "not so bad" has to be put in context.
Franco's nationalist army was exhausted after the Civil War, and more involved in repression at home than capable of offering help to the Axis. Franco knew that, so refused Hitler's invitation to join.
But for the next 30 years after WWII, Spanish refugees crossed the Pyrenees at night to seek shelter in France, telling stories of violent repression, tortures, police brutalities, night raids, prison camps, mass executions, etc...
The West liked Franco because he had kept neutral during WWII. Later, he didn't ask question about US bases and allowed nuclear bombs to be stored there, unlike France that refused. So America like him for that.
How you can see him as a benevolent leader, I don't know...
Ask the Spaniards, although I am sure that some are nostalgic about him... Ask the Catalonians, ask the Basques...
Stalin was ruthless in his rule. So was Churchill. If he could have held the British Empire together he would have. Roosevelt was quite ruthless in his dealings with his allies (even the Brits).

I do not criticize Franco not because I see him as a good democratic leader but because he was interested in Spain and not in spreading his... the way Berlin, London, Moskva and Washington all were. For someone who came to power in a civil war rather than via the ballot... they are expected to be...

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#336 Mar 9, 2013
TheRealMagyar wrote:
Robespierre, the same can be said about Stalin, yet you have no problem having him as your idol!
Stalin isn't my idol, but I recognise him as a great leader, and great stateman. He built the USSR as a superpower and was one of the most powerful world leaders.

Franco just clung to power for the last 40 years after winning the Civil War with outside help. I used to vist Spain under Franco; the country was very poor, not industrialised and really backwards.
It suited me as a tourist, but I could see the Spaniards were not a happy bunch!

Since: Sep 12

In your mind.

#337 Mar 9, 2013
Robespierre wrote:
<quoted text>
Stalin isn't my idol, but I recognise him as a great leader, and great stateman. He built the USSR as a superpower and was one of the most powerful world leaders.
Franco just clung to power for the last 40 years after winning the Civil War with outside help.
1) Did the Bolsheviks not have outside help?
2) Difference is that USSR was the biggest country in the world, with a vast population and vast amount of resources, in comparison to a little country like Spain, naturally USSR became a superpower and Spain not.

Do you think Spain would have been a superpower if Stalin was there instead of USSR?
Robespierre wrote:
I used to vist Spain under Franco; the country was very poor, not industrialised and really backwards.
It suited me as a tourist, but I could see the Spaniards were not a happy bunch!
Sounds like Eastern Europe under Communism.

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#338 Mar 9, 2013
TheRealMagyar wrote:
<quoted text>
1) Did the Bolsheviks not have outside help?
.
No, as a matter of fact, the bolsheviks didn't receive help during the civil war.

After they obtained a cease-fire with Germany, they had all the allied countries against them, and helping the whites.

France, Britain, Japan, Romania send trrops against the bolsheviks, whilst the USA and others also supported the white armies.

The British government sent bombers against the bolsheviks. The French sent pilots and aircraft to help the whites, etc...

Tell me where the bolsheviks got help from.

Since: Sep 12

In your mind.

#342 Mar 9, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
So... You are an ethnic German!? LOL
No, I think what he is trying to say that he was too scared to be openly Russian in Hungary, so he said he was a German, working for a German company.

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#343 Mar 9, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
Hating on Franco as an opressor.... While worshipping Stalin as a good man.
Hold on, I don't hate nobody and worship no one.

I just said that Franco was a bloody dictator for 40 years and that he ruled Spain with an iron fist. No teddy bear at all, although some Westerner see him like that because he never turn against his neighbours, he refused to help the NAZIs and also he accommodated the US bases in his country. So he got a fevourable review in Western media; that's all he wanted to have free hands to screw his own people.

Stalin, in the opposite built the USSR as a closed country, opposed Western imperialism and spread his ideology abroad.
Of course he killed many more people: he had a larger population to control too. He didn't get many good reviews with that, but discerning historians can see what he did with Russia to bring it where it was in 1953, compared how he inherited it in 1927.

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#346 Mar 9, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
Germany themselves helped the Bolsheviks take over by Germany in WW1 attacking the Russian government & thus weakening the Russian government so it had difficulty getting rid of the Bolshevik issue in 1917 like they had in 1905.
I wouldn't call that help, in the sense of something planned.
Germany had no idea in 1914, when it declared war on Russia that a tiny marxist movement was going to overthrow the monarchy.
What Germany knew, was that Russia was in no shape to fight and maintainb a long conflict.

What Germany did cunningly, was to allow Lenin to travel to Russia to undermine the Kerensky government, by preaching revolts among the Russian troops. Lenin was the only one among Russians to favour and armistist with Germany, and even to surrender some land. That was a very long shot by the Germans, but it worked!

But I wouldn't call that "helping the bolsheviks".

The whites got plenty of help, not very well coordinated, but the bolsheviks hardly any.
Abe

Basking Ridge, NJ

#348 Mar 9, 2013
Annie wrote:
<quoted text>
what a crock... Stalin's main aim in getting to Berlin was to gain territory and a buffer zone of empire. If he wanted to simply get rid of the nazis from the soviet union that could have happened when they were frozen out. He was not interested in liberation of any kind.
That's typical utherpendragon. He's always defending Soviet Moscow.
Abe

Basking Ridge, NJ

#349 Mar 9, 2013
uther pendragon wrote:
<quoted text>
the way Berlin, London, Moskva and Washington all were....
Who is MOSKVA??

You mean MOSCOW.

Why do you always call Moscow MOSKVA??? Like you're trying to label it in nostalgic terms.

Since: Nov 09

Podolsk, Russia

#350 Mar 9, 2013
TheRealMagyar wrote:
<quoted text>

Why? Were you scared that you will get beaten up for saying that you are Russian lol?
He wouldn`t fist fight with me because of it, because he was not an idiot like you. Idiots never get boss. I simply had a good conversation and didn`t want to spoil it by telling I was a Russian. I didn`t know but I suspected that he would not love this.

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#351 Mar 9, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
Regardless of what was planned or not.... Which is debatable.
I personally think that WW1 was likely just a Elitist plot to form the Soviet Union & bring down the Ottoman empire to get the land for Israel in the Mandate for Palestine.
...
.... But... Regardless.... Germany in WW1 did help weaken down the Russian government in favor of Bolshevik take over.
Germany did send Lenin & the Bolsheviks on a train to Russia in 1917 which included also funding from Germany with it.
...
..... Without Germany in WW1...... It is likely the Bolshevik revolution may have not happened.... If it did the Russian government would have likely over-thrown it like in 1905.
There are many flaws in your reasoning, like saying that WW1 was a plot. I think it was a meeting of circumstances, allied with rigid alliances acting like domino effect, etc...
None of the belligerents had any idea it would spread so widely, last so long and completely alter the map of Europe.

That should have been a lesson for future politicians, but it was not.

Right now, for example, I think that just as the Irak was is settled, and Afghanistan soon to be evacuated by the West, there are alarming rethorics coming from Tel Aviv about Iran, and from Pyonyang about South Korea. If any of these latent conflicts were to explode, there is no guarantee that they would not spread to other countries, and even merge.

But people don't want to learn, do they? Are you listening Washington?

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#352 Mar 9, 2013
uther pendragon wrote:
<quoted text>
Mussolini could not wait to get involved in HItler's war. Franco wisely avoided doing so.
Not everyone in Europe had so clear a choice in the matter.
I beg to disagree there. Mussolini tried desperatly to form alliance with France and Britain in the late 20s/early 30s, to be ignored.
Later, he reluctantly followed Hitler, and was always afraid that Hitler would be going too far.
Mussolini was the architect behind the Munich Conference, trying to bring Britain, France and Geremany together at the negotiation table. He was satisfied of the outcome and thought that Hitler would keep his word.

Mussolini was bullied in an alliance with Germany, to form the Axis. When Germany attacked Poland, triggering the declaration of war from Britain and France in ripost, Mussolini told people around him that he thought the Axis would lose. I think he was realistic from the start. Hitler didn't consider Mussolini or Italy as valuable allies.
pogo

United States

#353 Mar 9, 2013
Stalin lives on in Russia? Hell, he lives on in the USA. Obama is a Marxist too!

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#354 Mar 9, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah... Closed Country..... Like a Prison system...
"Opposed Western Imperialism" .... But... Stalin spread his own "Soviet / Communist Imperialism / Ideals around"
Well lovely!! He helped spread around the Communist terror to others... Amazing...
Let's give the man a f*cking Nobel Peace prize!!!
Well, dictatorships prefer closed countries, don't they.
The last thing they want is scrutiny, freedom of informastion, transparency, etc... all linked with contacts with outside and foreign influence.

Marxists or communists are like evangelists: they see it as their vocation to spread their ideology/religion, and to convert the masses.

Through its support of Western left-wing parties and trade unions, the USSR hoped to undermine what it saw as western capitalism, which we call western democracy. Stalin used the Komintern to help left-wing movements all around the world; it failed in some places and succeeded in others.

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#358 Mar 9, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
Well... If planned or not.
WW1 & WW2 clearly had an outcome.... One which could suspiciously be of a planned agenda.
Which would include.
1. WW1 = ceasing Ottoman Empire to destruction = Palestine madate for the future creation of Israel.
WW1 = weakening down Russia to form the Soviet Union.
2. WW2 = justification sympathy strings for the creation of Israel.... Giving an opressive reason to have a massive level of Jews pack up their bags at once to head for Israel.... Which without WW2 then the amount of Jews going into Israel would be much smaller.... Likely even unable to create Israel.
WW2 = failure of Operation Barbossa leading to Soviet expansion into Central Europe.
Apart from Germany which was a relatively new Empire, all the other belligerents were gambling their survival once they engaged in war.

The ageing Austria-Hungary was just a collection of small ethnic groups seeking to break away, from the central power. It just need a war to implode. It provoked it!

The Ottoman empire had been on a back foot since the 19th century, losing ground all the time. It needed modernisation and had thrown its lot with Germany for it. That alliance the Sultan was bound to honour was fatal to the empire.

The autocratic tsarist regime in Russia was dealing with a socio-economic crisis it was unable to resolve. Russia was not fit to conduct a war, yet, against the best advices, Nicholas II chose to get involved when he didn't need to.

Britain was finding maintening its empire a huge burden. A war in Europe would hamper its trade and bankrupt it. Britain ended up on the winning side and kept its empire, but lost its top spot as number one world economic power.

Hummm, I have heard that zionists outside Europe were rejoycing at the Holocaust because it would give them the ideal excuse to claim Palestine and declare the state of Israel. Not sure that's the case. That would have been a really diabolical strategy ...

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#359 Mar 9, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
You speak highly of this!?
.... Interesting....
Yeah.... Don't disagree with what you said here.....
What I disagree with... Is why you state this.... Then seem to support Stalin & the USSR!?
I explain it the way I see it.

I just don't think that Russia, the Russian empire (becoming the USSR) would have become what it is now without a strong authority at the head.
Obviously tsarism in the early 20th centuty couldn't provide the strong leadership necessary to move the country forwards like it did under Yvan the Terrible, Peter the Gret, or Katherine II. Nicolas II was just too weak to do that.

The Kerensky regime wante to copy western democracy, but didn't bring much relief to oredinary Russians, nor stopped the war, etc...

So, a marxist dictature came, which solved brutally many of the problems plaguing the country. I think that was what Russia needed. The same happened in France in the late 18th century, when royalty became an obstacle to progress.
But the communists had to act decisively and quickly, hence the many massacres of opponents, rebels and doubters.
Stalin also became paranoid about internal division, rivalry and decided to tackle that by mass killing. Dictators are like that; they must stay in power, and will try anything to stay there. That is predictable.

After Stalin, the USSR political structure started to crumble, and its economy failed. I am sure that, had the Soviet Union reformed economically like China did, people would have been happy with that and wouldn't bother with the regime change.

Since: Aug 07

Location hidden

#361 Mar 9, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
Aha... Yes... You seem to support Bolshevik Revolution & French Revolution to the core of your beliefs.
But.... With this came murder, suffering & opression.
.... Which I suppose you justify in the means of the Egalitarian Anti Capitalistic means!?
Aha.... Interesting....
...
....
...... So... You think that only a Communist system with someone like Stalin......
Is what would cause Russia to rise.... Uh huh.
...
..... Well... What if Russia in 1917 adopted a Capitalist like system like the U.S has had!?
Perhaps Russia could have grown an economy similar to the U.S.
The USA are a new country and therefore started from a blank sheet of paper. Also, the USA benefited from the influx of many people of different background and learnt from them, notably that absolutism was a No No.

But in France, just like in Russia, were absolute rulers, not very enlighterned who blocked all social-economic progress.

Under Louis XVI, France was ruled by a handful of people, with absolutely no consultation with the rest of the population. It was a regime of privileges, only interested in perpetuating itself and not interested in developing the country.

In Russia, Nicolas II was obsessed in deciding everything and limited by his own beliefs in divine power. Nicolas II din't have a proper government and even forbade his mionisters to work together; they had to meet him one at the time! Nothing could be decreed with the tsar having to examine it first and deciding upon it, sometimes after consulting his wife!

These types of regimes that kept the lid on society had to go, and went in the most violent manner!

The seeds of capitalism system didn't exist in Russia; hardly any industry and land in the hands of nobility. It was easy for the state to step in and take over. Russia was in dire need of rural and industrial reforms. I doubt if capitalism, which primarily serves private interests, would have realised what communism did in Russia (USSR) in 30 years. That was an economic revolution on a scale never seen before.

Now Russia has a capitalist system, and what happens? Most of the resources are concentred in few hands, and the money goes abroad.

So far, only China seems to have changed from a collectif to a market oriented system successfully: but China hasn't changed its political system!
Abe

Basking Ridge, NJ

#362 Mar 10, 2013
Neo Szlachta wrote:
<quoted text>
You speak highly of this!?
.... Interesting....
Yeah.... Don't disagree with what you said here.....
What I disagree with... Is why you state this.... Then seem to support Stalin & the USSR!?
Yes Robespierre has always thought highly of Stalin and Russia. People who have been here for years have always noticed this.

For some reason Stalin and Russia are like Rock Stars to Robi old boy.
Henry

Bad Langensalza, Germany

#363 Mar 10, 2013
Alexey25 wrote:
Russian people support Stalin this is the fact.
Who cares about the opinion of western people?
This is our Russian leader, why those western chimps put their crooked noses into Russian business?
We respect our history, we are not going to hate our history and especialy such a great leader as Stalin.
If you are unhppy with it, you can kill yourselves.
Stalin was the last hope for a survival of the atomic inferno.In the capitalist age there is a nuclear desaster for sure!

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