created by: Mer Vairenik | Jul 4, 2010

Russia

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Are Russians white?

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281 - 300 of 687 Comments Last updated Mar 25, 2014

Since: Aug 12

Brewster, NY

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#296
Nov 4, 2012
 

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tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
The keyword here is mesolithic.
Mesolithic European is most preserved in the Baltic region.
For all we don't know, northern Poland might have had the same mesolithic mix than the rest of the Baltic Sea regions.
The connection via Gotland and Saaremaa / Curonia / Prussia is well known and documented. It worked over many millennia. Swedes might not literally be the descendants of estonians, but gotlanders are about 50/50 mix of southern baltic finns and (coastal) swedes.
Much less is known of any neolithic connections between Sweden and Poland.
<quoted text>
While I was mixing mesolithic with neolithic, you are mixing neolithic with paleolithic.
Scandinavia has had about the same zones as the Baltics and Finland. Meaning that estonians and balts are more similar to swedish south of the Stockholm latitude, while finns and saamis are more similar to swedes north of Stockholm. The difference in importance comes from the higher population densities in more southerly regions.
And btw, I very much doubt that any substantial population migrated to Sweden from the Tatra and Carpathian mountains.
So why does Sweden & Norway have more R1a haplogroup like Poland & less N haplogroup like the Baltic region & Finland?

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There is a direct connection between Poland & Sweden by Cordedware culture.

R1a haplogroup, Indo-European languages & Nordic phenotype went from Poland into Sweden in the Cordedware culture.

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Sweden was a part of Kurgan culture.

Earliest Kurgan found in Poland 6,000 years ago with other of the earliest Kurgan's found in Ukraine & Russia 6,000 years ago.

A Kurgan is found in Sweden 4,000 years ago about the time of the arrival of the Nordic phenotype & Cordedware culture in Sweden.

Since: Aug 12

Brewster, NY

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#297
Nov 4, 2012
 

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tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
No.
Corded ware spread in the Baltic Sea region via maritime peoples - both on the eastern shore and on the western shore.
I have no problem to imagine neolithic maritime "poles", it is just that those maritime "poles" at that time were more like other maritime peoples around the Baltic Sea, not like continental "poles" or "czechs".
Cordedware culture probably spread R1a haplogroup to Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia.

Estonia was in the Cordedware culture while Finland mostly was not.

This is probably why Estonia has more R1a haplogroup than Finland does.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#298
Nov 6, 2012
 
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
Cordedware culture probably spread R1a haplogroup to Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia.
I have to repeat myself again.
Corded ware spread to Estonia and to Finland via maritime finnic peoples. Immigration (of bilingual finns/proto-baltobelarussians) probably only happened to Lithuania and to south-eastern Latvia.

The culture spread, but did not replace the previous culture, and did not bring about immigration. It was like IT revolution - new vocabulary for newer agriculture, etc.

So R1a did mainly not spread through immigration.
And it probably spread and became more frequent over a much longer timespan.
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
Estonia was in the Cordedware culture while Finland mostly was not.
This is probably why Estonia has more R1a haplogroup than Finland does.
I don't think so.
Estonia has more R1a, because R1a is likely advantegeous for acricultural lifestyle. Finland was way behind in agricultural takeover.

Just as N thrived because it was advantegeous to nordic cold-climate hunter-gatherers.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#299
Nov 6, 2012
 
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
So why does Sweden & Norway have more R1a haplogroup like Poland & less N haplogroup like the Baltic region & Finland?
Because southern Sweden had milder winters and earlier agriculture. It is mostly about the environment and the lifestyle, not about excessive migration.
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a direct connection between Poland & Sweden by Cordedware culture.
No, it isn't.
It was largely likely similar to what happened on the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea - culture mediated by maritime mesolithic/neolithic hunter-gatherers.

The Swedish peculiarity is the mingling of mediterraneans with baltic (here baltic = Baltic Sea) hunter-gatherers into one agriculturalist group of people.
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
R1a haplogroup, Indo-European languages & Nordic phenotype went from Poland into Sweden in the Cordedware culture.
Do you suggest germanic languages from Poland to Sweden, sidestepping Denmark? I don't think so.
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
Sweden was a part of Kurgan culture.
Earliest Kurgan found in Poland 6,000 years ago with other of the earliest Kurgan's found in Ukraine & Russia 6,000 years ago.
A Kurgan is found in Sweden 4,000 years ago about the time of the arrival of the Nordic phenotype & Cordedware culture in Sweden.
The "arrival" of the nordic phenotype?
It was the agriculture that arrived, or more exactly, was taken over. Lifestyle morphs people.

PS. The nordic phenotype is mostly maritime, thus it has always been less agricultural (or rather, it has always been a more balanced diet).

Since: Nov 12

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#300
Nov 9, 2012
 

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I read and wonder. It is necessary to have Kakko ignorance that would ask such a question?
Moreover, Russian is the only "white" Rassi sadly you read this. And to put it more precisely the only habitat of Cro-Magnon man. Russian will not - will not be white.
Read at least on the official website of the U.S. geneticists R1a1. Their need to believe?

Since: Nov 12

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#301
Nov 9, 2012
 
And by the way. About Mongol-Tatar invasion.
The fact that it simply invented, no one is arguing about. I myself archaeologist. Twenty years in the expeditions.
  The complete absence of cultural heritage Mongol State. He is not.

Since: Aug 12

Brewster, NY

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#303
Nov 9, 2012
 

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tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Do you suggest germanic languages from Poland to Sweden, sidestepping Denmark? I don't think so.
<quoted text>
When looking at this map it looks like Cordedware spread from Poland to North Germany up into Denmark & than Sweden. yup.

http://www.google.com/imgres...

This would explain why Sweden has more R1a haplogroup but less N haplogroup.

In fact it seems almost all N haplogroup in Sweden comes from the Saami & Finland in the far North of Finland.

While Southern Sweden has moderate levels of R1a haplogroup but very low levels of N haplogroup.

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Of course the I1a haplogroup is the big question.

However since Norway particularly Central West Norway has the most R1a in Scandanavia.

It looks like R1a haplogroup probably largely arrived in Sweden before most I1a haplogroup did.

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My guess would be that a Cheddar man type in Britain was the Sammi & was U5 haplogroup on the maternal side & I1a & N haplogroup.

That this Cheddar man type was the first people into Scandanvia having I1a haplogroupo, N haplogroup & maternal U5 haplogroup.

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Then Proto Germanic R1a cordedware type from Poland moved into Scandanavia spreading the Nordic phenotype.

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Then later a band of I1a haplogroup without mixing with N haplogroup or R1a haplogroup from in Southern France of the Combe Capelle type likely moved into Southern Scandanavia.

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Yes while the 9,000 year olf Cheddar man was in England.

The 9,000 year Combe Capelle man was in Southern France.

see the strong contrast of features there & not unlike the strong contrast in features between the Saami of Northern Sweden vs Southern Sweden.

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where are the r1b haplogroup type people?

further South than Combe Capelle in Spain or perhaps even North Africa as Mechta Afalou?

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Mechta Afalou Cro Magnon from Morocco looks very similar to Britisah people today

Mechta Afalou of North Africa.

http://www.google.com/imgres...

John Lennon

http://www.google.com/imgres...

Howard Marks the British

http://www.google.com/imgres...
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#304
Nov 9, 2012
 
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
When looking at this map it looks like Cordedware spread from Poland to North Germany up into Denmark & than Sweden.
...
We are going in circles here.
I have to repeat again that the corded ware on the eastern shores of the Baltic Sea spread via maritime finnic tribes.

And thus it is likely that the western spread was similar to the eastern side, especially if one considers the Pitted Ware culture was mostly still based on local mesolithic maritime peoples (and the similarity of gotlanders and ölanders to oeselians and curonians).
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
This would explain why Sweden has more R1a haplogroup but less N haplogroup.
In fact it seems almost all N haplogroup in Sweden comes from the Saami & Finland in the far North of Finland.
I don't think so.
The frequency of N among gotlanders is only 2 times less than among oeselians. And N is not even a maritime haplogroup.
I would be very surprised if N to the south of Upland were of finnish or saami origin.
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
While Southern Sweden has moderate levels of R1a haplogroup but very low levels of N haplogroup.
Haplogroups do not give the whole picture.
N is frequent in cold continental areas.
Soth Sweden is anything but.
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
The 9,000 year Combe Capelle man was in Southern France.
see the strong contrast of features there & not unlike the strong contrast in features between the Saami of Northern Sweden vs Southern Sweden.
No need to grasp for far-fetched axplanations.

The strong contrast is easily explained with genetic drift in the north and with climate and lifestyle.

Swedes in general are not further away from finns than estonians and balts are from finns. And estonians and balts are closer to swedes than to finns. And swedes are closer to estonians and balts than to finns.
neutral observer

Lake Worth, FL

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#305
Nov 9, 2012
 

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tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
We are going in circles here.
Indeed. Your arguments have always been rather circular.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#306
Nov 9, 2012
 
Neither N nor R1a are maritime haplogroups.
The nordic phenotype, on the other hand, IS a maritime phenotype.
neutral observer

Lake Worth, FL

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#307
Nov 9, 2012
 

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tarmo wrote:
Neither N nor R1a are maritime haplogroups.
The nordic phenotype, on the other hand, IS a maritime phenotype.
Is your point that Finno-Ugric peoples just wandered into Europe from off the Eurasian steppes and thus lack the maritime DNA?
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#308
Nov 9, 2012
 

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neutral observer wrote:
<quoted text>
Is your point that Finno-Ugric peoples just wandered into Europe from off the Eurasian steppes and thus lack the maritime DNA?
Quite the opposite.
My point is that finno-ugric peoples around the Baltic Sea have always been here since the end of the last ice age, and thus they have the maritime DNA.

Since: Aug 12

Pawling, NY

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#309
Nov 29, 2012
 

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tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
Swedes in general are not further away from finns than estonians and balts are from finns. And estonians and balts are closer to swedes than to finns. And swedes are closer to estonians and balts than to finns.
According to this genetic map Poland is the closest to Sweden besides Norway.

Lithuania is the closest to Finland & Finland is closest to Lithuania.

http://www.google.com/imgres...

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BTW. I have heard some say before this is one of the most reliable genetic cluster maps for Europe.
river volga

Beckenham, UK

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#310
Nov 29, 2012
 
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
Quite the opposite.
My point is that finno-ugric peoples around the Baltic Sea have always been here since the end of the last ice age, and thus they have the maritime DNA.
How do you explain the finno-ugric peoples living in Central Russia: the Udmurts?
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#311
Dec 1, 2012
 
river volga wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you explain the finno-ugric peoples living in Central Russia: the Udmurts?
What is there to explain?
Do you think that proto-europeans only lived in Udmurtia?
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#312
Dec 1, 2012
 
Halonen is Conan OBrien wrote:
<quoted text>
BTW. I have heard some say before this is one of the most reliable genetic cluster maps for Europe.
That depends on the definition of "one of the most reliable".
I don't think it gives the right picture. And how could it, with only 6-7 swedes, 5 norwegians and 8 lithuanians?

And there seem to be sampling issues and method issues.
tjm

Shrewsbury, NJ

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#314
Jan 25, 2013
 
One of my closest friends is from russia. They are white. 90% of russias population is on the european side of russia and they originated in europe and they are a form of slavik, which is white.
I am of full Italian/sicilian ancestry, and so many people are constantly saying to me ''oh you have black in you''.
Seems anytime any white ethnicity is not british or german, NON whites always try to say they have some non white race in them, despite they hate whites.

Gee, i wonder why?
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#316
Jan 26, 2013
 
It is widely recognized that the area of former baltic finns (including balts, who used to be baltic finns during mesolithic and neolithic) has genetically and morphologically retained the most from European mesolithic and neolithic hunter gatherers.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/04/so-whos...

And the region of Poland, that your reference shows, is actually the origin of the swiderian culture in epipaleolithic. The ancestors of baltic finns and balts stem from pre-swiderians, swiderians and post-swiderians, among others.

And the picture of a table of genetic similarity you refer to lacks estonians, latvians and lithuanians. And even if one would include these three populations, one would have to take into account the split nature of circum-baltic populations - that of coastal maritime population and that of continental population. That split has existed both in genes and cultures and mophology all the way back to the Allerod period at least.

Since: Apr 11

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#319
Jan 26, 2013
 

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Why don't you two little racist nazis stop going on about that racist crap,

people had enough of that obnoxious garbage from racist germany, in the middle of the last century.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

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#320
Jan 26, 2013
 
There was only one paleolithic east-european lowlands genetic cluster - it was uralic.

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