It's the Guns, Stupid

[Cana]

Plant Lady wrote:

<quoted text>
Are illegal aliens treated?
(yeah- I know the answer, the daughter was not legal for a couple of years- but I am curious to your view )

Yes they are, we have many social services that they have access too.

[feedup]

Cana wrote:

<quoted text>
Well being is the short answer.
I know personally having to worry about whether the insurance company is going to pay out without issues would be unnerving.
I would not like to have my personal assets up on the table either, as in the case of bankruptcy trying to pay the bill.

I have been there. I had to pay doctor bills without any insurance. It can be done and is done, Doctors can and will work with you. We do not need government dictating our health and or life.

I am all for helping those in need, but to place the government in charge is just stupid.

[Yankee Yahoo]

Cana wrote:

<quoted text>
You dunce, that is an irrational argument. Humans are not animals.
This is your quote above. Do you still stand by this statement?

Yes, I do. Humans are not animals, because what makes us human separates us completely. We have imagination and reason, they have only instinct and predetermined purpose by their nature.

What don't you understand about that? It's simple science, psychology 101. Heck, the word psych means soul, for even the Greeks could see the simple truth that something sets us apart from the animal kingdom.

[Cana]

feedup wrote:

<quoted text>
I have been there. I had to pay doctor bills without any insurance. It can be done and is done, Doctors can and will work with you. We do not need government dictating our health and or life.
I am all for helping those in need, but to place the government in charge is just stupid.

I'm glad it worked out for you, is that always the case?
I believe in Canada bankruptcy stays on the books for Seven years.

What about insurance with their pre-conditions, which is standard practice with these companies even with home/car.
If you are too high a risk, you are dumped.

Like I pointed out before, there are ways to overcome issues.
Having a one template...well that is stupid.

[Cheerokee]

Ramafuchs wrote:

A melting pot like USA should have more prisons and more guns to protect the puny pathetic life.
I hope OBAMA spend some tax payer's money to the factories which produce guns and other lethal weapons before christmas.
medical care ? forget it
Job? ignore
Shelter to sleep? leave it.
Guns are vital for survival

"RATaFUKS"...you are insane,just go out and kill a cow and eat it raw!
"RATaFUKS"...You are just a bullshiter!

[Foie Gras Fox]

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

Biologically, yes. Psychologically, no. Psychologically, even subject to animal instincts and desires, we are no where near the level of animals. For incredibly obvious and observable reasons.

Wishful thinking and typical acedemic conceitedness. Basically, what you're saying with that comparison, is that a single cell organism is psychologically an animal whereas a baboon is not. Amusing! Do you also teach alchemy, in addition to your regular history class? LOL

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

So, if we are smart enough to avoid bad situations, then criminals must also be smart enough to plan ahead and anticipate their prey not wondering into bad areas. And you miss the OBVIOUS problem. Government officials and police can be criminals, and we have every right o defend ourselves from them, too. Historically, governments make the worst predatory groups, and the best defense against other equally powerful predatory groups. That does not negate the absolute that everyone has a right to defend themselves.
Taking a controlled risk is carrying a weapon suitable for that risk. That is taking responsibility for one's self.

Never has a government been challenged by anything other than a united collective that has been unequivocally oppressed. The only effective firearm in anti-government rebellion has always proven to be widespread non-cooperation.

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

Negate what? YOU are arguing that somehow the presence of society negates one's personal responsibility!

True. Extremes can go both ways, after all. But I'd be concerned when public gun possession (carrying) becomes as normal as having a cell phone. Wouldn't you? The new thing now is MP3's with built in tazers, I hear. "...STOP! IN THE NAME OF LOVE...!" lol

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

No, we are NOT social animals. The willingness of individuals to cooperate together in society does not magically make us anything less than individuals. There is no such thing as a social mind. Now you are making things up or flirting with science fiction. We are individuals. Only individuals can think. Only individuals can be responsible for their own self-defense.

Bah humbug! I'll compromise with you though to 'social individuals'. The human need for companionship, family, cultural identification and devotion to monogamous relationship proves you wrong. It also proves that you've simply chosen guns as a cultural icon with which you identify. I'm not saying that's wrong per se, I'm saying it's likely damaging to the fabric of society.

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

You are mixing how animals settle their disputes using MIGHT-IS-RIGHT mentality, which is the OPPOSITE of justice and a need for the law.
Now quit making things up and argue the points logically. Do you have an excuse why humans, as biological creatures, should not have a self-defense mechanism? Do you have a philosophical argument that would negate one's responsibility for self-defense?
You're ultra-conservative views supporting the state's power over the individual is archaic and old, and has been shot down by far better men than both of us. If you don't have anything new, then just say it.

I have never uttered any such thing! That I support the state to have a large extent of power over individuals, that is. There needs to be a balance. Too much is bad (absolute monarchy, communist China) and too little is just as bad (Congo, Brazil).
I'm saying that when both of these scenarios get involved in guns then shite hits the fan! The only reason to carry a gun ought to be hunting and defence against dangerous animals because nobody wants to be mauled by a coyote pack or a bear. Likewise in places with dangerous fauna like Africa, South America.

[Cana]

Yankee Yahoo wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, I do. Humans are not animals, because what makes us human separates us completely. We have imagination and reason, they have only instinct and predetermined purpose by their nature.
What don't you understand about that? It's simple science, psychology 101. Heck, the word psych means soul, for even the Greeks could see the simple truth that something sets us apart from the animal kingdom.

Wow Charlie you are all powerful just by saying it is so, Humans are no longing in the Animal family.

Why is monsanto doing all that r&d bullshot...they just need to contact you at the Factory.

Then you can change the gene splice into whatever those jackasses want.
Hey Charlie here is a FREE lesson for you.
I had to teach those other two clowns!

http://vertebrates.si.edu/mammals/msw/

[Plant Lady]

Cana wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm glad it worked out for you, is that always the case?
I believe in Canada bankruptcy stays on the books for Seven years.
What about insurance with their pre-conditions, which is standard practice with these companies even with home/car.
If you are too high a risk, you are dumped.
Like I pointed out before, there are ways to overcome issues.
Having a one template...well that is stupid.

I paid $120.00 today to see a Dr. and have a strep test run.

That is the cost of my health care so far this year.

[Plant Lady]

Foie Gras Fox wrote:

<quoted text>
Wishful thinking and typical acedemic conceitedness. Basically, what you're saying with that comparison, is that a single cell organism is psychologically an animal whereas a baboon is not. Amusing! Do you also teach alchemy, in addition to your regular history class? LOL
<quoted text>
Never has a government been challenged by anything other than a united collective that has been unequivocally oppressed. The only effective firearm in anti-government rebellion has always proven to be widespread non-cooperation.
<quoted text>
True. Extremes can go both ways, after all. But I'd be concerned when public gun possession (carrying) becomes as normal as having a cell phone. Wouldn't you? The new thing now is MP3's with built in tazers, I hear. "...STOP! IN THE NAME OF LOVE...!" lol
<quoted text>
Bah humbug! I'll compromise with you though to 'social individuals'. The human need for companionship, family, cultural identification and devotion to monogamous relationship proves you wrong. It also proves that you've simply chosen guns as a cultural icon with which you identify. I'm not saying that's wrong per se, I'm saying it's likely damaging to the fabric of society.
<quoted text>
I have never uttered any such thing! That I support the state to have a large extent of power over individuals, that is. There needs to be a balance. Too much is bad (absolute monarchy, communist China) and too little is just as bad (Congo, Brazil).
I'm saying that when both of these scenarios get involved in guns then shite hits the fan! The only reason to carry a gun ought to be hunting and defence against dangerous animals because nobody wants to be mauled by a coyote pack or a bear. Likewise in places with dangerous fauna like Africa, South America.

what about two-legged predators?

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/edmonton/2009...

Do you think a woman should submit to being raped?

[Foie Gras Fox]

Plant Lady wrote:

<quoted text>
I paid $120.00 today to see a Dr. and have a strep test run.
That is the cost of my health care so far this year.

Go get sick. See how that suddenly changes. What about that knee eplacement you'll need at 68 or the broken hip? Believe it or not, some people have costly chronic defects as well.

[Plant Lady]

Cana wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes they are, we have many social services that they have access too.

If you were living with an illegal population as we are here in the States how would you be ok with that?

btw- Do you cover all the wives and children of the muslims as they do in the UK?

[Ramafuchs]

Ignorant and ill-informed participants of this FORUM know that the prison population of the whole Europe is not that much as is the case in USA.
And the same ignorant people here know that laws in Europe is very strict.
moreover there are less gun lobby in whole Europe than Obama's land of liberty

[Foie Gras Fox]

Cana wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow Charlie you are all powerful just by saying it is so, Humans are no longing in the Animal family.
Why is monsanto doing all that r&d bullshot...they just need to contact you at the Factory.
Then you can change the gene splice into whatever those jackasses want.
Hey Charlie here is a FREE lesson for you.
I had to teach those other two clowns!
http://vertebrates.si.edu/mammals/msw/

Americans mind Monsanto because it's capitalism. Obama's health care is what they don't want. That's socialsim! ROFL

[Cana]

Plant Lady wrote:

<quoted text>
I paid $120.00 today to see a Dr. and have a strep test run.
That is the cost of my health care so far this year.

Dr. working today, don't you guys' observe Remembrance Day?

[Plant Lady]

Foie Gras Fox wrote:

<quoted text>
Americans mind Monsanto because it's capitalism. Obama's health care is what they don't want. That's socialsim! ROFL

Monsanto is evil.

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/Publicatio...

http://onebodyonetemple.wordpress.com/2009/03...

http://www.monsanto.com/monsanto_today/for_th...

[Cana]

Plant Lady wrote:

<quoted text>
If you were living with an illegal population as we are here in the States how would you be ok with that?
btw- Do you cover all the wives and children of the muslims as they do in the UK?

That is a self induced wound, that you businesses brought on.

[Cana]

Foie Gras Fox wrote:

<quoted text>
Americans mind Monsanto because it's capitalism. Obama's health care is what they don't want. That's socialsim! ROFL

Show me the money lol, capitalism with a little fascism mixed in for good measure.

[Foie Gras Fox]

Plant Lady wrote:

<quoted text>
Monsanto is evil.
http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/Publicatio...
http://onebodyonetemple.wordpress.com/2009/03...
http://www.monsanto.com/monsanto_today/for_th...

Then why did Americans let the G.W. Bush government support it? Especially as visibly as by nominating former Monsanto CEO Dick Cheyney to become Secretary of State? Twice! Monsanto understands life forms and their instincts which is why they're so good at marketing and manipulating the tribalistic and complacent nature inside us.

[Foie Gras Fox]

Cana wrote:

<quoted text>
Show me the money lol, capitalism with a little fascism mixed in for good measure.

You know, Cana, the Yankee economy does have a good side to it. They keep their cost of living as low as possible for their citizens. Even Bush did that. E.g. electricity is supposed to triple in price here once the new smart meters are installed next year. Cigarettes cost $10 a pack. Gasoline is $.90 a liter. EVERYTHING is expensive up here but it needn't be. We've never had so many people live under the poverty line, and, because of politicians' mismanagement, health care quality really sucks lately. In a way I really envy the Yanks.

[Plant Lady]

Cana wrote:

<quoted text>
That is a self induced wound, that you businesses brought on.

I didn't ask why we are in the mess. I asked what you would DO if that were the case, not how it happened.