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“Tino Rangatiratanga”

Since: Jul 11

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#1
Feb 16, 2013
 
This is a thread response to the following post in another thread:

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/new-zealand/...

I'm curious to get feedback from other Maori about their thoughts.

“Tino Rangatiratanga”

Since: Jul 11

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#2
Feb 16, 2013
 
I think Adam has hit the nail on the head – I asked you to name someone who has gratuitously lined their pockets with the proceeds of settlement monies (think: fraud, embezzlement, corruption etc). His salary is not a product of fraud, and is in step with the salaries of similarly placed executives.

I don’t agree with your suggestion of more jails. I get that in the climate of the individualistic capitalist world we live in, the default is to always blame the victim for their own poverty. Don’t get me wrong – we are individuals and we have choices – but the decisions we make are influenced by the circumstance of available choices and the environment we find ourselves in.

In my view there are two basic inter-connected historical problems. The first is the undermining and breakdown of Maori society which was achieved in the first instance through the transfer of land and natural resources, and the second is the subsequent loss of economic opportunity which came after.

As a people, we entered the beginning of the twentieth century with a seriously fragmented and undermined social foundation, and the lack of land based resources from which to command a rural based Maori economy. These are serious deficiencies because economic and social powers are two sides of the same coin.

Maori gangs are a product of failed assimilation policies – particularly of successive government “pepper potting” as it was called to ensure that Maori could not reproduce in the cities and towns the traditional networks of kin based society found in our traditional rohe. So why should anyone expect troubled Maori youth to respect their environment when it constantly reinforces the idea that their identity is not valued? We’re taught this in school, and we face it daily in society.

In my view the problems are fundamentally social and economic, so the solution should have a social and economic component. What I would like to see – what I personally think should have happened from the beginning – is that settlements return land sufficient for Maori to rebuild our communities, and second, to invest in community based enterprise.

For an example of what I mean by this, take a look at what the ethnic Basque are doing in Mondragon, Spain, with worker and community based corporations. In my opinion, you cannot separate the economic from the social. Maori tribal corporate entities operate in a Pakeha centric individualist environment at the same time as their members are dispersed in Pakeha society that does not value their identity. Therefore, what is needed are Maori communities that identify with and promote Maori values.

The Mondragon model is in my opinion, a much closer fit for Maori. I’d have to flesh this idea out some more – I have only scratched the surface here. But it’s something to think about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/...

“Educating Utus”

Since: Aug 10

Palmerston North, New Zealand

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#3
Feb 16, 2013
 
The way forward for part Maoris is as it has always been
Handouts
Blame all your issues including torturing and killing your children on 'colonisation'
Handouts
With the help of unscupulous lawyers, attempt to breath life into a rat-eaten document from the 19th century, to extort money and assets from New Zealanders.
Handouts
Pretend that the 99% of New Zealanders who now loathe the Treaty gravy train with a passion are all racists and rednecks.
More handouts

“dont live in a dream world be ”

Since: Dec 12

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#5
Feb 16, 2013
 
That Maori Guy wrote:
I don’t agree with your suggestion of more jails. I get that in the climate of the individualistic capitalist world we live in, the default is to always blame the victim for their own poverty. Don’t get me wrong – we are individuals and we have choices – but the decisions we make are influenced by the circumstance of available choices and the environment we find ourselves in.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/...
i did not say more jails i said jail style(big difference) as in if we can catch these younger kids as soon as they first offend,put them on a marae of their own tribe with their own elders to learntheir own historys and tikanga, but because alot of these kids will try to run, one needs to fence them in until the elders feel that this such person will be a benefit to society and at the same time the elders could look further into the livelyhood of these such kids homes,to me thats a big part of living is having the supports of one family and tribe,we cannot put say a ngai tahu kid into a tainui marae as the tikanga varies,you should know this anyhow.

“dont live in a dream world be ”

Since: Dec 12

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#6
Feb 16, 2013
 
That Maori Guy wrote:
Maori gangs are a product of failed assimilation policies – particularly of successive government “pepper potting” as it was called to ensure that Maori could not reproduce in the cities and towns the traditional networks of kin based society found in our traditional rohe. So why should anyone expect troubled Maori youth to respect their environment when it constantly reinforces the idea that their identity is not valued? We’re taught this in school, and we face it daily in society.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/...
this bit here cracks me up, its like your trying to justify, for fuel for a treaty claims which is utter bullshit,i feel these gangs started for the benefit of a few whom need backup on call so they can order the young to commit crimes that the older ones are scared of going to jail for(and the young get less time),but you have taken on tariana turias stance about gangs.so if maori started gangs because they missed being part of a tribe,then why the tongan gangs,samoan,white gangs for that matter,then the bikers,you cant tell me that these are all urban tribes,i feel people start gangs because of their own scared of living alone natures because through some reason or another have fallen out with their familys so chose to walk away from and start their own group for that feeling of being a tribe.and then there are the ones whom join because they got touched up as kids(because of once were worriors lifestyle)and feel they have a family that cares for them as is the case within the gangs

“Tino Rangatiratanga”

Since: Jul 11

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#7
Feb 16, 2013
 
The fundamental difference between the Maori corporate model as it exists now and “my vision” of the Mondragon model is that in the first instance, the corporation is the focal point, whereas in the second, it is the community.

However Maori tribal corporations would like to think they can promote Maori values and tribal identity within their internal corporate structures, the fact remains that there cannot be any real sense of tribal cohesion because the historical process of landlessness has eliminated Maori communities and its sense of self since members are dispersed among the dominant social order. At best, this can be little more than lip service because the Maori corporation by itself cannot provide social cohesion.

Instead of the Maori corporate entity, think Parihaka with a series of community based member owned enterprises. There are no hand-outs. Maori who wish to take advantage of the opportunities do so with the knowledge that the community is the main factor in the organization of the co-operative enterprise.

And just like at Mondragon, members can move vertically and horizontally within the co-operative as supply and demand dictates while the larger percentage of profits generated are redistributed back into community based housing, education, training and health programs instead of shareholder groups.

In this way, member/workers have a vested interest in their community, and the knowledge that their community values their identity. The two main components are right here: community and enterprise. The difference is that it is a community based on Maori values.

“dont live in a dream world be ”

Since: Dec 12

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#8
Feb 16, 2013
 
That Maori Guy wrote:
The Mondragon model is in my opinion, a much closer fit for Maori. I’d have to flesh this idea out some more – I have only scratched the surface here. But it’s something to think about.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/...
nz has these type groups in nz,on the westcoast of nz there is a group called the cooperrites, they are self sufficent,own there own passanger planes,exsport spagnahm moss,has one of the biggest dairy farms in the south,got their own bakery,seamstresses,carpenters ,engineneers,they are at the moment trialing gas exsploration,market gardens,bulldozers,diggers,and trucks,and have work crews that travel working for other farmers, not only for cash, but trade their skills for things their enterprises need,the only bad thing is they breed amongst them selfs so the inbreeding occurs,you may know of one bad apple from there was "hopefulchristian" a stigma that has stuck with them for years but, i know these people personally(i helped log one of their forests and taught a couple of them how to move the ropes around to extract logs)
this is a good model but one needs to remember not to seclude ones group from society

“dont live in a dream world be ”

Since: Dec 12

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#9
Feb 16, 2013
 
That Maori Guy wrote:
The fundamental difference between the Maori corporate model as it exists now and “my vision” of the Mondragon model is that in the first instance, the corporation is the focal point, whereas in the second, it is the community.
However Maori tribal corporations would like to think they can promote Maori values and tribal identity within their internal corporate structures, the fact remains that there cannot be any real sense of tribal cohesion because the historical process of landlessness has eliminated Maori communities and its sense of self since members are dispersed among the dominant social order. At best, this can be little more than lip service because the Maori corporation by itself cannot provide social cohesion.
Instead of the Maori corporate entity, think Parihaka with a series of community based member owned enterprises. There are no hand-outs. Maori who wish to take advantage of the opportunities do so with the knowledge that the community is the main factor in the organization of the co-operative enterprise.
And just like at Mondragon, members can move vertically and horizontally within the co-operative as supply and demand dictates while the larger percentage of profits generated are redistributed back into community based housing, education, training and health programs instead of shareholder groups.
In this way, member/workers have a vested interest in their community, and the knowledge that their community values their identity. The two main components are right here: community and enterprise. The difference is that it is a community based on Maori values.
i agree with you on this one (i am a decendant from parihaka but family now based at port waikato)

“Educating Utus”

Since: Aug 10

Palmerston North, New Zealand

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#10
Feb 16, 2013
 
Don't even think about another Parihaka, we will burn it to the ground.
New zealand is the land of the white man.

“Moumou Tangata ki te Po”

Since: Oct 11

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#11
Feb 16, 2013
 
That Maori Guy wrote:
This is a thread response to the following post in another thread:
http://www.topix.com/forum/world/new-zealand/...
I'm curious to get feedback from other Maori about their thoughts.
sick of them says, "i feel to get the crime rate down, we need to start our own jail type living quarters for our youth,if left up to the courts theyll all continue to offend and be sentenced to longer and longer sentences"

i don't know about the jail component,..... but i agree the way forward lies in dealing with at risk people earlier. kindy or kohanga if it's at all possible,...

jail is the proverbial ambulance at the bottom of the cliff..... a good strong fence at the top is what's needed...

“dont live in a dream world be ”

Since: Dec 12

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#12
Feb 16, 2013
 
Torqueing Heads wrote:
Don't even think about another Parihaka, we will burn it to the ground.
New zealand is the land of the white man.
here you go jumping to threats because you dont understand.
my veiw is like that, but on marae for life skills training for the very kids you rant on about.
to me it sounds as if you like things the way they are,if you keep thinking negative thoughts, you will attract all thats negative,
maybe thats why you keep getting ripped off.
should something like this start and someone like you burns it, i myself will take out water supplys and power to the towns that have milk factorys in them,which race of people in this country will be the first to adapt to a powerless towns.
and on top of that, theirs a main gas line(in taranaki) that could be tamperd with.
lots of railway lines.phone towers,pine forests,air port radars,right down to local sign posts.
see where this sort of negative thinking will put this country.
no milk powder exsports,loss of jobs to hundreds,even the meat and fish factorys.
then on top of this, theres hundreds of wooden power poles that could be cut down,so id cut it out if i was you.
even what i have said is as stupid and dumb comment as yours,your a very bitter man arent you th.get real with what you preach you should be pushing us to sort the crime rate out,but not you.
i think you like things the way they are,so you can keep comming here to bleat rather than acually do something about it. well i dont,and these things tmg and i are throwing at each other are just ideas to help our race,but as with anything maori do their will always be critics.

“Moumou Tangata ki te Po”

Since: Oct 11

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#13
Feb 16, 2013
 
Torqueing Heads wrote:
Don't even think about another Parihaka, we will burn it to the ground.
New zealand is the land of the white man.
lol..... you sound like a moron....

this is aotearoa, te ika a maui, te waka a maui. it's also known as new zealand, home of the original new zealander, the maori.

NObody is going to burn down people's homes in nz unless they are fcukin nuts....crack pots, anti social, murderous criminals......

you are a creep...with constant evil thoughts coming out of you....you are deluded.

“Educating Utus”

Since: Aug 10

Palmerston North, New Zealand

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#14
Feb 16, 2013
 
sick of them wrote:
<quoted text>here you go jumping to threats because you dont understand.
my veiw is like that, but on marae for life skills training for the very kids you rant on about.
to me it sounds as if you like things the way they are,if you keep thinking negative thoughts, you will attract all thats negative,
maybe thats why you keep getting ripped off.
should something like this start and someone like you burns it, i myself will take out water supplys and power to the towns that have milk factorys in them,which race of people in this country will be the first to adapt to a powerless towns.
and on top of that, theirs a main gas line(in taranaki) that could be tamperd with.
lots of railway lines.phone towers,pine forests,air port radars,right down to local sign posts.
see where this sort of negative thinking will put this country.
no milk powder exsports,loss of jobs to hundreds,even the meat and fish factorys.
then on top of this, theres hundreds of wooden power poles that could be cut down,so id cut it out if i was you.
even what i have said is as stupid and dumb comment as yours,your a very bitter man arent you th.get real with what you preach you should be pushing us to sort the crime rate out,but not you.
i think you like things the way they are,so you can keep comming here to bleat rather than acually do something about it. well i dont,and these things tmg and i are throwing at each other are just ideas to help our race,but as with anything maori do their will always be critics.
You'll get as far as taking out one water main and you'll be behind bars, forget about the rest. Adam has listed similar ideas on youtube, destabilising the country to pave the way for a Tuhoe nation. But what neither of you realise is you are both small town hicks, bush Maoris with big ideas and not a hope of bringing down this countries infrastructure.

“Educating Utus”

Since: Aug 10

Palmerston North, New Zealand

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#15
Feb 16, 2013
 
Adam Rangiaho wrote:
<quoted text>
lol..... you sound like a moron....
this is aotearoa, te ika a maui, te waka a maui. it's also known as new zealand, home of the original new zealander, the maori.
Maoris WERE NOT the original inhabitants of these islands.
And the people who today call themselves 'Maoris' are mixed race imposters, mongrels descended from migrants from the Cook Islands, European sealers and whalers and settlers.

“dont live in a dream world be ”

Since: Dec 12

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#16
Feb 16, 2013
 
Torqueing Heads wrote:
<quoted text>You'll get as far as taking out one water main and you'll be behind bars, forget about the rest. Adam has listed similar ideas on youtube, destabilising the country to pave the way for a Tuhoe nation. But what neither of you realise is you are both small town hicks, bush Maoris with big ideas and not a hope of bringing down this countries infrastructure.
this is where you are wrong,were not alone,you will like to think we are, but should you or any of your followers do your shit to ours, shit will happen,
dont try scare me with jail,as you keep saying half the jail is maori,you would be the one living with kid touchers should you ever end up there,your mouths to big for a start and some young fella that we are trying to keep out of that place would shut your trap for you,racist pricks dont last very long in there.
country hicks hahaha i was born in auckland and spent my schooling in ashburton,then lived in chch for 7 years then spent the last 22 here on the southern west coast,so you see mr knowa ive been around and have lots of contacts through the people i meet along my lifes road.

“Moumou Tangata ki te Po”

Since: Oct 11

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#17
Feb 16, 2013
 
Torqueing Heads wrote:
<quoted text>Maoris WERE NOT the original inhabitants of these islands.
.
yes they are....NObody in nz thinks they weren't......unless like you they are fcukin nuts....crack pots, guessing.........

“Educating Utus”

Since: Aug 10

Palmerston North, New Zealand

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#18
Feb 16, 2013
 
I think both you halfbreeds need to wake up and smell the roses.

“Educating Utus”

Since: Aug 10

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#19
Feb 16, 2013
 
sick of them wrote:
<quoted text>this is where you are wrong,were not alone,you will like to think we are, but should you or any of your followers do your shit to ours, shit will happen,
dont try scare me with jail,as you keep saying half the jail is maori,you would be the one living with kid touchers should you ever end up there,your mouths to big for a start and some young fella that we are trying to keep out of that place would shut your trap for you,racist pricks dont last very long in there.
country hicks hahaha i was born in auckland and spent my schooling in ashburton,then lived in chch for 7 years then spent the last 22 here on the southern west coast,so you see mr knowa ive been around and have lots of contacts through the people i meet along my lifes road.
Don't think for a minute our govt doesn't have contingency plans in place for the possibility of an organised, concerted uprising by part Maoris. Your heads will be stomped into the ground just like they were in the 1860s.

“Moumou Tangata ki te Po”

Since: Oct 11

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#20
Feb 16, 2013
 
Torqueing Heads wrote:
I think both you halfbreeds need to wake up and smell the roses.
YOU need to stop talking shet all the time....

“dont live in a dream world be ”

Since: Dec 12

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#21
Feb 16, 2013
 
Torqueing Heads wrote:
I think both you halfbreeds need to wake up and smell the roses.
we were trying to, but you had to bring your racist ideas to the platform.
you can thank yourself for the way im thinking these days,up until i joined this forum i was quite happy going about my daily life,then i came across you and your buddies on here whom pick at the maori all the time with your negative veiws, so i made it a point to get into cantact with my father to find out more about my other side,and now the way yous carrying on makes me want to take it a step further,
so i travelled to hamilton and ran my thoughts past my father and uncles and guess what,they liked the idea of setting up something for the young ones at our marae.
1, it would get fresh blood onto the marae.
2,it will give the elders a sense pride to teach the history of maori from the kingitanga to their moko.
3,will get voices back on the marae,as of late they like ghost towns.
4,will build better relations with the police and government as to set up a plan of this nature would need input from the police and probation dept.so we could then take youth court referals.

theres a long way to go,but the wheels are in motion,the idea has been planted,weather you like it or not,and by now id say the hamilton police would know, as one of my uncles was going to run it past his boss for their ideas and a plan to fit in with their policing stratergys.com e and try burn it out and you wont get back past the tuakau bridge and if you tried to go the kawhia way well the cuzzys would get you halfway along the gravel road and id rather take the police than end up in their hands.

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