Bush to visit Ukraine, Romania, Croatia

Mar 14, 2008 | Posted by: Smetana | Full story: www.bbj.hu

US President George W. Bush will visit Ukraine and Croatia when he is on his way to attend the April 2-4 NATO summit in Bucharest, Romania, the White House said Thursday.

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Baturyn

Jacksonville, NC

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#1
Mar 14, 2008
 
My respect for George W. Bush has gone up tenfold. Although I did not vote for him in the last election, I would do so this time if he were running.
Freedom

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#2
Mar 14, 2008
 
Ukraine was an ally of the US in WW II. The two countries attacked Germany from different directions to bring the defeat of Hitler. Ukraine is a good friend of the US today. Long live that friendship.
Baturyn

Jacksonville, NC

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#3
Mar 14, 2008
 
Freedom wrote:
Ukraine was an ally of the US in WW II. The two countries attacked Germany from different directions to bring the defeat of Hitler. Ukraine is a good friend of the US today. Long live that friendship.
There was a Soviet Ukrainian component that attacked Germany (though, regrettably, without the intent to liberate Ukraine from Bolshevik rule in the process) and there was an underground Ukrainian component (UPA) that fought both the Nazis and the Soviets for Ukraine's independence.

Your point is well taken. Ukraine is certainly a good friend of the U.S., and the U.S., under GWB, has proven to be a strong supporter of Ukraine's freedom.

Indeed, may that friendship live long.

Bear

Eugene, OR

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#4
Mar 14, 2008
 
Baturyn wrote:
<quoted text>
There was a Soviet Ukrainian component that attacked Germany (though, regrettably, without the intent to liberate Ukraine from Bolshevik rule in the process) and there was an underground Ukrainian component (UPA) that fought both the Nazis and the Soviets for Ukraine's independence.
Your point is well taken. Ukraine is certainly a good friend of the U.S., and the U.S., under GWB, has proven to be a strong supporter of Ukraine's freedom.
Indeed, may that friendship live long.
Hear hear. I agree, long may that friendship live and prosper.
Stefan

Saskatoon, Canada

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#5
Mar 15, 2008
 
This will get lots of press coverage and will be all over CNN. As so this news coverage for Ukraine is good for business, and democracy.

I just hope that Bush doesn't make a big gaff and say,'Hello to all the former little Russians, I'm pleased to be invited to Kiev. You know I've always liked Chicken, in fact it reminds me of a story from my childhood........':
Baturyn

Jacksonville, NC

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#6
Mar 15, 2008
 
Stefan wrote:
This will get lots of press coverage and will be all over CNN. As so this news coverage for Ukraine is good for business, and democracy.
I just hope that Bush doesn't make a big gaff and say,'Hello to all the former little Russians, I'm pleased to be invited to Kiev. You know I've always liked Chicken, in fact it reminds me of a story from my childhood........':
The bigger issue than Bush's gaff is what the commies and russkies will do to embarrass him and whether Yushchenko will be able to keep his ego in check long enough to provide a united front with Timoshenko. What a disaster if there were to be a reshuffling in the government right before the Summit.
Canuck

Swift Current, Canada

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#7
Mar 15, 2008
 
Freedom wrote:
Ukraine was an ally of the US in WW II. The two countries attacked Germany from different directions to bring the defeat of Hitler. Ukraine is a good friend of the US today. Long live that friendship.
No, my misguided friend.....It is clear that the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) was closely associated with the Nazis and that "Many members of the OUN were Nazi agents involved in subversion, espionage, sabotage, terrorism and outright murder." "Alliance for Murder: the Nazi-Ukrainian Nationalist Partnership in Genocide" B.F. Sabrin, ed.(New York; 1991). It is also clear that many of the 100,000 Ukrainians who volunteered to serve with the Nazis were not coerced into joining the SS.
Maksim

Brooklyn, NY

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#8
Mar 15, 2008
 
Stefan wrote:
I just hope that Bush doesn't make a big gaff and say,'Hello to all the former little Russians, I'm pleased to be invited to Kiev. You know I've always liked Chicken, in fact it reminds me of a story from my childhood........':
LOL
biomed_guy

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#9
Mar 16, 2008
 
If you wanted to sell a military organization to a passive people it doesn't seem responsible to use the War president as a spokesperson.

It will be interesting to see how his visit will be received. I would bet NATO will be seen as less desirable afterwards.

I hope the next president visits earlier in their term and with a more peaceful purpose.
Baturyn

Jacksonville, NC

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#10
Mar 16, 2008
 
biomed_guy wrote:
If you wanted to sell a military organization to a passive people it doesn't seem responsible to use the War president as a spokesperson.
It will be interesting to see how his visit will be received. I would bet NATO will be seen as less desirable afterwards.
I hope the next president visits earlier in their term and with a more peaceful purpose.
Today, close to 1,000 Ukrainian military personnel are serving in international peacekeeping missions. Ukraine’s peacekeepers once numbered 3,000 and Ukraine is a top 10 world peacekeeping contributor. But is there a proportionately equal political and economic return for this important international contribution for Ukraine?

Aside from simply participating in activities, the opportunity to take part in forming solutions, decision-making and influencing them to secure the ideal international and economic effect for the state is optimal. The right to influence decision-making is common in full-fledged member organizations, which applies to the Alliance itself. Ukraine’s NATO membership gives it the possibility to influence decisions allowing it to defend its views and national interests.

Evidently, the countries that don’t want these opportunities to exist are those that have a “casual” attitude towards Ukraine’s potential NATO membership.

Commentary emanating from the Russian Foreign Ministry’s Department of Information and Print on Ukraine’s rapprochement to NATO clearly is unfavorable. The Russian foreign ministry said Ukraine has the right to determine NATO membership, but simultaneously declared that membership could complicate relations between the two countries. Incidentally on Jan. 25, 2008, 11 NATO countries and Russia will conduct joint training exercises in Germany on the use of an anti-rocket defense system. Indeed, this is happening under the aegis of the Russia-NATO Council’s (RNC) special working group on issues of anti-rocket defense systems.

Moreover, Ukraine can only dream of reaching the same level of cooperation with NATO as Russia has. It seems they are exclusive friends without us, and this suits Moscow. Let’s be friends together with our participation.

It is quite clear to me that Russia has the desire to have all of Kyiv’s relations with Brussels resolved in Moscow. Yet we live in the XXI century, the world is open and more just today. European countries and structures respect Ukraine’s right to its own position, own policy, own national interests … and for the right to exist.

(Above from the Kyiv Post)
Baturyn

Jacksonville, NC

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#11
Mar 16, 2008
 
Canuck wrote:
<quoted text>
No, my misguided friend.....It is clear that the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) was closely associated with the Nazis and that "Many members of the OUN were Nazi agents involved in subversion, espionage, sabotage, terrorism and outright murder." "Alliance for Murder: the Nazi-Ukrainian Nationalist Partnership in Genocide" B.F. Sabrin, ed.(New York; 1991). It is also clear that many of the 100,000 Ukrainians who volunteered to serve with the Nazis were not coerced into joining the SS.
Freedom - the fellow ("Canuck") who is referring to you as "misguided" is 1 of 2 people in the world who still blames the Germans for the WW2 massacre of 15,000 Polish officers ....even AFTER the Russians said they did it!!! That should give you a pretty good idea of how much credibility to attach to his comments.

The book to which he is referring was put together by a Committee of Survivors of Western Ukraine who did their research in the USSR in 1982 and were provided with Soviet documentation and witnesses. The Soviet government had a very strong interest in discrediting Ukrainian nationalists as "NAZI collaborators" because Ukrainians were a continuing threat to their domination. The KGB provided Sabrin and his "committee" with the sort of selective documentation and testimony that would support their anti-Ukrainian position.

The simple truth of the matter is that - in the context of such a huge canvas as World War II and the "Eastern Front" - you can take any selective assortment of facts, figures, documentation, statistics, etc, and produce whatever conclusion you want.

For example, if I chose to do in-depth research of Jewish participation in the German army, their service as camp guards, and their atrocities in the role of an auxiliary German police force in the ghettos, I could probably come up with a fairly well supported conclusion that Jews, themselves, were responsible for much of the horrors that befell them. That would, of course, be an absurd conclusion in the context of the holocaust and the over-all intentions of the Third Reich toward Jews.

However, this is precisely the sort of twisted logic that is used by unreconstructed Stalin apologists such as "Canuck". There is a great deal of documentation available - from German and Soviet archives - showing that Ukrainian nationalists were as much of a thorn in the side of the Nazis as of the Soviets. There is a great deal of documentation showing that the Germans were frustrated with their inability to find local (Ukrainian) supporters willing to participate in anti-Jewish activities and they had to request Berlin to send special units to bolster their penal and extermination squads.

That is not to say that some Ukrainians could not be found who were willing to collaborate. EVERY single Nazi-occupied country (including the Vichy regime of France) supplied local thugs to do their dirty work. Even the U.S.- for several of the war years - had a very large and active network of Nazi sympathizers. But, whenever you hear a Ukrainophobe such as Canuck or even well-intentioned researchers highlight one aspect of the Ukrainian fight for its freedom, keep in mind that - even if accurate - it is only a very tiny piece of the larger canvas that you are seeing.....just as Jewish collaboration with the Nazis was a very tiny piece of the larger canvas.
Why Not

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#12
Mar 16, 2008
 
At this point Bush's visit is largely symbolic . The main thing is that it demonstrates the U.S. government's continual support for Ukraine and the concept of a Ukraine integrated into the European mainstream . Richard Holbrook on BBC yesterday said that even Russia was offered Nato membership ,potentially, but Putin has taken a different tack. So, Ukraine has become a kind of litmus test for the development of freedom in the world. One thing about Dubya ,he usually gets the basics right .Unlike George Bush 1, Dubya is unlikely to repeat something similar to his fathers infamous 'Chicken Kiev ' speech in 1991 suggesting caution in breaking with the USSR , while Ukraine was trying to break away from the evil empire . Dubya at least knows one end of the steer from the other end , unlike George senior .Dubya certainly has his faults ,but he usually gets the basics right ,which says a lot these days as common sense is a rare commodity in politics.
Baturyn

Jacksonville, NC

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#13
Mar 16, 2008
 
Why Not wrote:
At this point Bush's visit is largely symbolic . The main thing is that it demonstrates the U.S. government's continual support for Ukraine and the concept of a Ukraine integrated into the European mainstream . Richard Holbrook on BBC yesterday said that even Russia was offered Nato membership ,potentially, but Putin has taken a different tack. So, Ukraine has become a kind of litmus test for the development of freedom in the world. One thing about Dubya ,he usually gets the basics right .Unlike George Bush 1, Dubya is unlikely to repeat something similar to his fathers infamous 'Chicken Kiev ' speech in 1991 suggesting caution in breaking with the USSR , while Ukraine was trying to break away from the evil empire . Dubya at least knows one end of the steer from the other end , unlike George senior .Dubya certainly has his faults ,but he usually gets the basics right ,which says a lot these days as common sense is a rare commodity in politics.
You hit it right on the nail. Both Ronald Reagan and George Bush have (had) the rare talent to understand the underlying logic of a situation and
lock into it like bull-dogs. Better-informed or "smarter" presidents often fail to see the forest because so many trees are placed before them by a myriad of advisers.

Those who have served in the White House for several decades (and have had the opportunity to evaluate presidents first hand) claim that Jimmy Carter was one of the most brilliant presidents of recent years. Yet his presidency is considered to have been a failure. On the other hand, that aging "actor" and "cowboy" who took long afternoon naps never lose sight of his objectives....even if it meant cultivating the ridicule of the whole world. Today the USSR is a fading memory, and RR is revered by many (including myself)as one of the great presidents of this century.

Although I have not been a supporter of Dubya, he does leave one with a feeling of strength and predictability....at least in foreign policy. If he had also put as much time and attention into holding down government spending as he put into the war on terrorism, he would have turned out to be a very successful president. As I look at the cast of characters vying to replace him, I am already beginning to miss "Dubya" - big ears and all.
Freedom

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#14
Mar 16, 2008
 
Canuck wrote:
<quoted text>
No, my misguided friend.....It is clear that the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) was closely associated with the Nazis and that "Many members of the OUN were Nazi agents involved in subversion, espionage, sabotage, terrorism and outright murder." "Alliance for Murder: the Nazi-Ukrainian Nationalist Partnership in Genocide" B.F. Sabrin, ed.(New York; 1991). It is also clear that many of the 100,000 Ukrainians who volunteered to serve with the Nazis were not coerced into joining the SS.
There's no doubt that the Ukrainians were divided over who to fear most, the Nazis or the Russian communists. Many Ukrainian partisans were fighting the Germans as they left and then fighting the Russians as they arrived. My comment was that Ukraine and the U.S. were allies during WW II and Ukraine did indeed invade Germany from the east as the U.S was invading from the west.
Baturyn

Jacksonville, NC

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#15
Mar 16, 2008
 
Freedom wrote:
<quoted text>There's no doubt that the Ukrainians were divided over who to fear most, the Nazis or the Russian communists. Many Ukrainian partisans were fighting the Germans as they left and then fighting the Russians as they arrived. My comment was that Ukraine and the U.S. were allies during WW II and Ukraine did indeed invade Germany from the east as the U.S was invading from the west.
You have that right.
Stefan

Saskatoon, Canada

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#16
Mar 16, 2008
 
Freedom wrote:
<quoted text>There's no doubt that the Ukrainians were divided over who to fear most, the Nazis or the Russian communists. Many Ukrainian partisans were fighting the Germans as they left and then fighting the Russians as they arrived. My comment was that Ukraine and the U.S. were allies during WW II and Ukraine did indeed invade Germany from the east as the U.S was invading from the west.
Good point about who was to fear the most. Was it the Germans or the Russian? Prior to to WW2 little was know about the Germans 'Final Solution', it was all hush-hush and was kept very quiet. It was not till Nuremberg that the truth finally came out.

However there was lots of information in Western Ukraine about mass killings in Russia, the Famine/genocide in Eastern Ukraine, the poverty, and the shipping of dissidents to Siberia.

If I been around back then, my choice would have been to support the Germans at first as liberators, then I would have fought both the Germans and Russians. This is exactly what many did.

I remember a story retold by a young Ukrainian partisan when the Russian army had finally made it through to Western Ukraine. One Russian officer looked at this young partisan and said, "We are here to liberate you". The young Ukrainian after looking directly at the Russian, his poor quality boots, shabby and ripped coat and trousers replied back to him, "You are here to liberate us from what?".
Why Not

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#17
Mar 16, 2008
 
Freedom wrote:
<quoted text>There's no doubt that the Ukrainians were divided over who to fear most, the Nazis or the Russian communists. Many Ukrainian partisans were fighting the Germans as they left and then fighting the Russians as they arrived. My comment was that Ukraine and the U.S. were allies during WW II and Ukraine did indeed invade Germany from the east as the U.S was invading from the west.
In fact, the first division of the Ukrainian Red Army under General Konev liberated auschwitz and participated in the liberation of Berlin . It also liberated Yushchenko's father who was a red army soldier prisoner in a nazi concentration camp.
Baturyn

Jacksonville, NC

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#18
Mar 16, 2008
 
Why Not wrote:
<quoted text> In fact, the first division of the Ukrainian Red Army under General Konev liberated auschwitz and participated in the liberation of Berlin . It also liberated Yushchenko's father who was a red army soldier prisoner in a nazi concentration camp.
Another famous Ukrainian who was liberated at about the same time (by the Polish Second Infantry Division) was Stepan Bandera, the head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists which (according to Canuck, Sabrin, and their Soviet mentors) collaborated with the Nazis. He was imprisoned in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp from 1941 to 1945.

Interestingly, the Red Army "liberators" immediately turned around -renamed the camp "Special Camp No. 7" - and used it as a concentration camp for political prisoners.
Bs Buster

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#19
Mar 16, 2008
 
I met Andrij Bandera ,the son of Stepan in the 1960's and had him over at my place for a barbecue. He was a visiting speaker at a Ukrainian Youth conference. He told me that his father Stepan Bandera was not a nazi collaborator, and that his faction had split with the hard -line Melnyk faction in 1941. Stepan and his brother were imprisoned in Sachsenhausen concentration camp . His brother died of malnutrition and typhus in the camp and Stepan Bandera weighed 98 lbs when he was released at the end of the war and lived until 1959 , when he was murdered by the KGB in Munich on the orders of Nikita Krushchev.
biomed_guy

United States

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#21
Mar 16, 2008
 
Why Not wrote:
At this point Bush's visit is largely symbolic . The main thing is that it demonstrates the U.S. government's continual support for Ukraine and the concept of a Ukraine integrated into the European mainstream . Richard Holbrook on BBC yesterday said that even Russia was offered Nato membership ,potentially, but Putin has taken a different tack. So, Ukraine has become a kind of litmus test for the development of freedom in the world. One thing about Dubya ,he usually gets the basics right .Unlike George Bush 1, Dubya is unlikely to repeat something similar to his fathers infamous 'Chicken Kiev ' speech in 1991 suggesting caution in breaking with the USSR , while Ukraine was trying to break away from the evil empire . Dubya at least knows one end of the steer from the other end , unlike George senior .Dubya certainly has his faults ,but he usually gets the basics right ,which says a lot these days as common sense is a rare commodity in politics.
And what do you suppose Dubya symbolizes to the average Ukrainian? Aggressor, maybe? Warmonger, maybe? What do you think? Unfortunately, his terrible foreign policies precede his visit.

And are you actually saying Dubya's the smart one? Unbelievable.

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