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yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#59602 Oct 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
personally, I am of the school of thought that we over supplement our diet with vitamins, leading to strange things such as Kidney stones.
Look at any Milk or Cereal or Energy Bar in the US. Maybe if all we had was ONE of these things daily, it would be ok, but in a typical day, one might eat an energy bar, have cereal, and milk, which is 3X the vitamins at the end of the day.
rabbee: a 9mg supplement of potassium cyanide, should prevent all kidney and gall stones.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59603 Oct 5, 2013
AS you can see, for calcium oxalate stones, it is a bit more complicated than too little or too much calcium. Its more about your bodies disposition to absorb and retain calcium (and oxalates).

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http://www.ajronline.org/doi/full/10.2214/AJR...

There are five main types of urinary calculi: calcium, magnesium ammonium phosphate, uric acid, cystine, and medications and their metabolites (Table 1).

Calcium-Based Calculi

Calcium-based calculi account for 7080% of urinary tract calculi in the United States [8]. Calcium oxalate calculi are the most common type of calcium-based calculi, comprising 60% of all types of calculi [7]. Calcium-based calculi can measure as high as 1700 HU on CT, with brushite calculi among the most dense, composed of calcium hydrogen phosphate dihydrate [9].

The most significant factor in the formation of calcium-based calculi is hypercalciuria [10]. Renal hypercalciuria is a result of deficient reabsorption of calcium within the renal tubules. Hypercalciuria may also result from excessive intestinal absorption of calcium. Bone demineralization, which may occur in the setting of primary hyperparathyroidism or prolonged immobilization, results in a resorptive hypercalciuria [7]. These processes are interrelated, and an abnormality of calcium metabolism at one site may result in secondary abnormalities at other sites.

Data table
View Larger Version
TABLE 1: Characteristics of Different Types of Urinary Tract Calculi

Other underlying conditions that lead to calcium-based calculus formation include abnormal uric acid metabolism (with or without primary gout), hypocitraturia (which may arise in the setting of chronic diarrhea, distal renal tubular acidosis, and thiazide use), and hyperoxaluria [7].

Hyperoxaluria is a cause of calcium-based calculus formation that can be primary, secondary, or idiopathic. Primary hyperoxaluria is a rare autosomal recessive disease resulting in enzymatic errors that lead to the increased oxidation of glyoxylate to oxalate [11]. More common is secondary hyperoxaluria, which can be seen in the setting of bowel surgery, inflammatory bowel disease, excessive intake of vitamin C, and renal insufficiency.

Read More: http://www.ajronline.org/doi/full/10.2214/AJR...

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59604 Oct 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

personally, I am of the school of thought that we over supplement our diet with vitamins, leading to strange things such as Kidney stones.
Doesn't ascorbic acid (Vit C - C6H8O6) get converted into oxalic acid (C2H2O4) during metabolism?

So, the urine of those people who consume plenty of vitamin C should contain a high amount of oxalic acid.

Ascorbate is supposed to readily bond with Ca^2+ ions to form calcium-ascorbate thus preventing the formation of calcium oxalate crystals (kidney stones) from free calcium and free oxalate ions in the kidneys that form in supersaturated solution containing excess of highly reactive free oxalate ions and the less reactive free calcium ions.

Perhaps, those with a genetic disposition towards kidney stones of the oxalate kind should cut down on oxalate rich foods and eat less sodium containing compounds and take in the usual amount of calcium.

Maybe upping the intake of vitamin C could help prevent kidney stone formation.

Besides, ascorbic acid serves as a solvent for calcium phosphate stones.

Ok, well.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59605 Oct 5, 2013
Marriage is a mere sex contract and an institution that promotes companionship between man and woman that has no deeper meaning nor any evolutionary advantage. Sex and procreation do not need marriage to legalize them.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59606 Oct 5, 2013
What difference does it make if one inserts his penis into a vagina or into the mouth or into the anus? These are mere orifices that have dual uses with pleasure being one of them. Unless, it can be proven, in view of the intimate mind-matter causal connections, that anal sex in heterosexual or in homosexual relationships damages the brain wiring or that it can upset nerve currents or that it results in dysfunctional behavior there is no valid reason to abstain from anal sex. All those species indulging in it can simply carry on.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59607 Oct 5, 2013
Everything in existence is an aspect of mind-matter!

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59608 Oct 5, 2013
Religion and marriage are redundant institutions. Self-inquiry leading to self-realization will make greater inroads in coming years as people become more introspective and learn more about the intimate causal links between mind-matter that constitutes the reality. Sexual procreation is on its way out in the light of recent advances in asexual reproductive technologies. A little more perfecting and sex will mostly become a recreational outlet while invitro or cloned designer babies will become the common practice of the day.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59609 Oct 5, 2013
Time for my medicines. Feeling a bit feverish, eyesight is slightly blurred and my nerves are beginning to shake. Good night.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59610 Oct 5, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
Doesn't ascorbic acid (Vit C - C6H8O6) get converted into oxalic acid (C2H2O4) during metabolism?
So, the urine of those people who consume plenty of vitamin C should contain a high amount of oxalic acid.
Ascorbate is supposed to readily bond with Ca^2+ ions to form calcium-ascorbate thus preventing the formation of calcium oxalate crystals (kidney stones) from free calcium and free oxalate ions in the kidneys that form in supersaturated solution containing excess of highly reactive free oxalate ions and the less reactive free calcium ions.
Perhaps, those with a genetic disposition towards kidney stones of the oxalate kind should cut down on oxalate rich foods and eat less sodium containing compounds and take in the usual amount of calcium.
Maybe upping the intake of vitamin C could help prevent kidney stone formation.
Besides, ascorbic acid serves as a solvent for calcium phosphate stones.
Ok, well.
It appears to be the opposite. Perhaps the idea is that excessive C keeps the oxalate in solution, where it can srystalize, and interferes with its absorption.

"....More common is secondary hyperoxaluria, which can be seen in the setting of bowel surgery, inflammatory bowel disease, excessive intake of vitamin C, and renal insufficiency...."
Voluntarist

United States

#59611 Oct 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
With a western diet, it is almost impossible to be deficient in calcium. SO this information is interesting but not applicable.
AFter a kidney stone episode, most urologists analyze your urine volume and composition. Composition will rule in or rule out metabolic issues. Volume will rule in if you need to drink more water. Furthermore, if you were lucky enoygh to capture the stone, sending it out to the lab is important to see which type it is, as not all are oxalates. A lot of what you read in the pop media (Volunterist for example) is actually CONTRAINDICATIVE if your stone is not an oxalate.
Obviously Volunteerist never had experience with a stone.
You are missing two things

A) how do you know how much calcium you actually need?
B) what yoi eat and what you absorb could be different, Americans are big on gluten which can cause absorption problems.
Voluntarist

United States

#59612 Oct 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
personally, I am of the school of thought that we over supplement our diet with vitamins, leading to strange things such as Kidney stones.
Look at any Milk or Cereal or Energy Bar in the US. Maybe if all we had was ONE of these things daily, it would be ok, but in a typical day, one might eat an energy bar, have cereal, and milk, which is 3X the vitamins at the end of the day.
Well my friend that flys in the face of testimony I have heard of people getting on the other side of diabetes, heart disease, degenerative disc disease, obesity, cancer , and marked improvements in a quadriplegic, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, cataracts etc... all through supplementation.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59613 Oct 5, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Well my friend that flys in the face of testimony I have heard of people getting on the other side of diabetes, heart disease, degenerative disc disease, obesity, cancer , and marked improvements in a quadriplegic, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, cataracts etc... all through supplementation.
Testimony? Thats part of the problem.

Give me data thru studies.

Again, if you read my post, I am not against supplementation, just excessive supplementation.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59614 Oct 5, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
You are missing two things
A) how do you know how much calcium you actually need?
B) what yoi eat and what you absorb could be different, Americans are big on gluten which can cause absorption problems.
You might not realize it, but you are supporting my view.

Its not about the amount of calcium you eat, its about your ability to utilize it, AND the chemistry of the urine which keeps it in and out of solution (i.e. its alkalinity and its concentration of reagents such as oxalate and citrate). Both of those factors can be somewhat independent of calcium intake, which contradicts your earlier view that kidney stones (oxalate stones) are caused by not enough calcium in your diet.
Voluntarist

United States

#59615 Oct 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Testimony? Thats part of the problem.
Give me data thru studies.
Again, if you read my post, I am not against supplementation, just excessive supplementation.
The proof is in the pudding, I live in the real world.
Voluntarist

United States

#59616 Oct 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You might not realize it, but you are supporting my view.
Its not about the amount of calcium you eat, its about your ability to utilize it, AND the chemistry of the urine which keeps it in and out of solution (i.e. its alkalinity and its concentration of reagents such as oxalate and citrate). Both of those factors can be somewhat independent of calcium intake, which contradicts your earlier view that kidney stones (oxalate stones) are caused by not enough calcium in your diet.
Not just my view, from my earlier post;

The answer is that high dietary calcium
actually blocks a chemical action that causes
the formation of the stones. It binds with
oxalates (from foods) in your intestine, which
then prevents both from being absorbed into
your blood and later transferred to your
kidneys.

If there isn't enough calcium then these stones are allowed to form, doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
But the mds are telling people to cut calcium, just like they tell people to cut cholesterol that your body needs.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59617 Oct 5, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
The proof is in the pudding, I live in the real world.
so do I

If I wanted testimony I would attend church

that is not proof

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59618 Oct 5, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Not just my view, from my earlier post;
The answer is that high dietary calcium
actually blocks a chemical action that causes
the formation of the stones. It binds with
oxalates (from foods) in your intestine, which
then prevents both from being absorbed into
your blood and later transferred to your
kidneys.
If there isn't enough calcium then these stones are allowed to form, doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
But the mds are telling people to cut calcium, just like they tell people to cut cholesterol that your body needs.
Dingbat

If you bothered to read any of the med links I posted you would note that Dr are NOT recommending that. Or they shouldnt be

I think I will side with modern medicine, thank you

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59619 Oct 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

It appears to be the opposite.

Perhaps the idea is that excessive C keeps the oxalate in solution, where it can crystallize, and interferes with its absorption.
If ascorbate readily bonds with free calcium ions in solution then the logical implication is that the availability of free calcium ions would be lesser thereby giving free oxalate ions little chance of bonding with free calcium ions to form calcium oxalate (stones).

So, a diet rich in vitamin C would prevent or reduce the risk in of oxalate as well as phosphate stone formation.

Mainly, I think a diet that's highly deficient in ascorbate and low on sodium would help in preventing or in reducing the risk of kidney stone formation.

Well, whatever.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59620 Oct 5, 2013
CONCLUSION

"More common is secondary hyperoxaluria, which can be seen in the setting of bowel surgery, inflammatory bowel disease, excessive intake of vitamin C, and renal insufficiency...."

COMMENTS

So. there are no clear cut dos and donts where prevention or reducing the risk of kidney stone formation is concerned.

Each case is different and so each patient whose body is inclined towards kidney stone formation should work out a diet that's best suited to his body type.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59621 Oct 5, 2013
Leading Mind-Matter mainstream scientist Dr Dean Radin would be greatly benefited if I join his team for the scientific, philosophical, experimental, experiential and deductive aspects of his lab work. I only hope he's not gay or bisexual otherwise on seeing my handsome personality he'll begin chasing me instead of taking advantage of the multifaceted expertise and novel insights that I can bring into his dedicated research in mind-matter. You know that I am God's gift to girls, bisexuals and gays.

(smiles)

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