What war in Europe really looks like

Full story: Politico 63
We were on the road headed out of Donetsk. It was just a few days after the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and the deserted road to the Pervomayskoye region on the western outskirts of this mining capital-turned-war zone was bumpy and torn up by tanks. Full Story
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Zeppelin

Knoxville, TN

#1 Jul 28, 2014
This is a well written article for those who can see past their hatred.
Live Free or Die

Williston, VT

#2 Jul 29, 2014
The day after eight people were killed on Luhansk’s central square, I was discussing with my friend, New York Times reporter Sabrina Tavernise, whether it was a Ukrainian jet or rebels that had been shooting at the square.

Kyiv denied it was a jet, but when we arrived and saw the scene with our own eyes, the picture was more than clear: At least 21 craters were left by the rockets shot from the air. Later, the Western observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe confirmed that rockets from a plane hit the square.

If Kyiv could lie to us once, why could not they lie again? I discussed that with a colleague from Human Rights Watch, Ole Solvang. Human Rights Watch documented at least four cases of Ukrainian forces being responsible for Grad unguided rockets falling on residential areas.“All evidence indicated that Ukrainian forces were behind Grad attacks,” Solvang told me, but when I called the interior and defense ministries of Ukraine, they claimed they were serious about protecting civilians and that they never used Grad rockets in the cities.
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AS SURE AS WATER RUNS DOWNHILL, KIEV LIES WHENEVER ITS LIPS MOVE
Live Free or Die

Williston, VT

#3 Jul 29, 2014
"But when the activists traveled to Kyiv and spoke with officials, they were told the most painful words—that the war was needed to renew the nation."

"THE WAR WAS NEEDED TO RENEW THE NATION!"

CAN THERE BE ANY DOUBT SUCH WARPED RHETORIC IS FASCIST?

STUDY THE RISE OF FASCISM IN ITALY AND THE NAZI MOVEMENT IN GERMANY. IT'S CRYSTAL CLEAR.

Since: May 14

Espoo, Finland

#4 Jul 29, 2014
Zeppelin, Observer & company

When this is over and the horrifying and sickening crimes against humanity that the separatists have carried out in Ukraine are unveiled, don't even one of you dare to say 'I didn't know'!!!!!

The information has been available all the time, you guys have actively taken part in a cover-up of the most unthinkable crimes, blaming the victims, kicked those who were already on the ground and you will not get away with any lousy lies like 'I didn't know'.

Pro-Ukrainians will not gloat at you and rub the victory in your faces. They will all be mourning, because this could have been avoided with sufficient help and support from the world :(

You guys glorify sick animals who are capable of crucifying a baby and pinning it on the Ukrainians... there is a lot more to come out, photos of children and adults that will shock the world :(

It's too late for you guys to jump ships then and join the mourning and horrified world, you will be labelled as inhuman creatures who gave immoral support to disgusting animals.

One thing is for sure, Putin and the separatists will be brought to international justice and people are once again reminded of when Nazis and Serbs were convicted - and why!

The only thing you can do is carry the responsibility for your own actions.

Which I highly doubt you are capable of doing.

Shame on you!
George

Red Deer, Canada

#5 Jul 29, 2014
Zeppelin wrote:
This is a well written article for those who can see past their hatred.
I agree, it is a very well written article, she paints a very vivid picture that you can follow, thanks for sharing.
George

Red Deer, Canada

#6 Jul 29, 2014
Pro-Ukraine wrote:
Zeppelin, Observer & company
When this is over and the horrifying and sickening crimes against humanity that the separatists have carried out in Ukraine are unveiled, don't even one of you dare to say 'I didn't know'!!!!!
The information has been available all the time, you guys have actively taken part in a cover-up of the most unthinkable crimes, blaming the victims, kicked those who were already on the ground and you will not get away with any lousy lies like 'I didn't know'.
Pro-Ukrainians will not gloat at you and rub the victory in your faces. They will all be mourning, because this could have been avoided with sufficient help and support from the world :(
You guys glorify sick animals who are capable of crucifying a baby and pinning it on the Ukrainians... there is a lot more to come out, photos of children and adults that will shock the world :(
It's too late for you guys to jump ships then and join the mourning and horrified world, you will be labelled as inhuman creatures who gave immoral support to disgusting animals.
One thing is for sure, Putin and the separatists will be brought to international justice and people are once again reminded of when Nazis and Serbs were convicted - and why!
The only thing you can do is carry the responsibility for your own actions.
Which I highly doubt you are capable of doing.
Shame on you!
It is a very sad day when human beings let politics rule over humanity, on both sides. We will see war crimes charges on both sides and rightfully so as neither are completely innocent, no matter how we paint it. The sooner the war can end the better, it may sound very crass and inhumane but the Ukrainian army needs to step it up even more and yes there will be more deaths but in the big picture it will be less deaths than letting the war go on for years like in Syria. There has been a lot of finger pointing that it is only the Ukrainian army that is guilty of war crimes and inhumane treatment of people of opposing political opinion, however as this war is more exposed the ugliness of what the rebels are doing is larger than the accusations of the Ukrainian army, and REMEMBER, these are the malitia that said they were there to protect and defend the Russians and Russian speaking people, now would this be different if Russia did not allow soldiers and weapons into Ukraine, ABSOLUTELY, as they did not want to kill each other, they wanted change only.
Live Free or Die

Williston, VT

#7 Jul 29, 2014
Aw, George is putting on his Mother Theresa habit now. LOL

Sure 'they' wanted change. They wanted autonomy from a very nasty bunch of people in Kiev who stole their votes, their voice and their rights as citizens of Ukraine.

They reacted as anyone would, they said "F-off!"
George

Red Deer, Canada

#8 Jul 29, 2014
Live Free or Die wrote:
Aw, George is putting on his Mother Theresa habit now. LOL
Sure 'they' wanted change. They wanted autonomy from a very nasty bunch of people in Kiev who stole their votes, their voice and their rights as citizens of Ukraine.
They reacted as anyone would, they said "F-off!"
Russians do NOT get a say NOR a vote, so wake up

Since: May 14

Espoo, Finland

#9 Jul 29, 2014
Live Free or Die wrote:
Aw, George is putting on his Mother Theresa habit now. LOL
Sure 'they' wanted change. They wanted autonomy from a very nasty bunch of people in Kiev who stole their votes, their voice and their rights as citizens of Ukraine.
They reacted as anyone would, they said "F-off!"
Aaw, Observer or Live free or die is collecting even more disgust-points ;)
Live Free or Die

Williston, VT

#10 Jul 29, 2014
George wrote:
<quoted text>
Russians do NOT get a say NOR a vote, so wake up
So, you're still holding onto your fiction that the majority of Ukrainians in the East are somehow being driven to rebellion by Russian guns pointed at their heads?

Give it a rest, George. No one in America believes that shit any more. It worked for a few weeks, that's about it.

Even Newsweek and your favorite russophobe The Daily Beast' reporters don't try to push that crap anymore.(read the article).
Live Free or Die

Williston, VT

#11 Jul 29, 2014
Pro-Ukraine wrote:
<quoted text>
Aaw, Observer or Live free or die is collecting even more disgust-points ;)
No need to show your face. I already have enough to work with.

Since: May 14

Espoo, Finland

#12 Jul 29, 2014
George wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a very sad day when human beings let politics rule over humanity, on both sides. We will see war crimes charges on both sides and rightfully so as neither are completely innocent, no matter how we paint it. The sooner the war can end the better, it may sound very crass and inhumane but the Ukrainian army needs to step it up even more and yes there will be more deaths but in the big picture it will be less deaths than letting the war go on for years like in Syria. There has been a lot of finger pointing that it is only the Ukrainian army that is guilty of war crimes and inhumane treatment of people of opposing political opinion, however as this war is more exposed the ugliness of what the rebels are doing is larger than the accusations of the Ukrainian army, and REMEMBER, these are the malitia that said they were there to protect and defend the Russians and Russian speaking people, now would this be different if Russia did not allow soldiers and weapons into Ukraine, ABSOLUTELY, as they did not want to kill each other, they wanted change only.
It is a sad day :(

In the beginning I didn't take any sides, instead I educated myself of both countries, read as much as possible before making an opinion. Ukraine has been blamed senselessly in order to justify the invasion and knowing Russian propaganda since little it didn't take long to see through.

Imagine a bunch starting with character-assassination on one person, building up a web of lies and attacking and attacking while the target tries to defend him/herself.

That person would desperately deserve people standing against the lynch mob, same as Ukraine desperately needs other countries to come to their help.

Small Ukraine against huge Russia... it's clear that they can't do it by themself. And if the world lets Russia take Ukraine, then Russia will take over other countries.

- Explore the nation's history and social, economical and political purposes. Think why propaganda is used and who is using it.
- Remember that scientific or legal looking material can also be propaganda.

Simple means to get a clearer picture of the reasons.

Hungary is ready to be annexed to Russia.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/29/5946115/hungarys...

Wonder if the population are on the same page or if we will see a new 'Ukraine'?

Zeppelin, apologies for adding your name in the earlier post, I didn't read the artile, only the comments :(
Pro Ukraine

United States

#13 Jul 29, 2014
George wrote:
<quoted text>
Russian speakers do NOT get a say NOR a vote, so wake up
Darn right. Only thing left for us to do is rid the nation of them, one way or another.

Like that wise Ukrainian officer said in the article: "We need war now to cleanse the nation."
rio

Beckenham, UK

#14 Jul 29, 2014
George wrote:
<quoted text>
. The sooner the war can end the better, it may sound very crass and inhumane but the Ukrainian army needs to step it up even more .
No, the Ukrainian army needs to stop, and Kiev accept that Eastern Ukraine wants to secede to follow its own path.

East Ukrainian don't want to impose anything on West Ukraine; they want to be independent from it. Period!
rio

Beckenham, UK

#15 Jul 29, 2014
George wrote:
<quoted text>
Russians do NOT get a say NOR a vote, so wake up
Shut up, scumbag: Ukrainians in Canada don't get a say.

East Ukrainians want independence from Kiev.

Since: May 14

Espoo, Finland

#16 Jul 29, 2014
rio wrote:
<quoted text>
Shut up, scumbag: Ukrainians in Canada don't get a say.
East Ukrainians want independence from Kiev.
Please provide evidence of that! And I'm not talking about some emotionally crap from RT, I'm talking about evidence!
Live Free or Die

Williston, VT

#17 Jul 29, 2014
rio wrote:
<quoted text>
East Ukrainians want independence from Kiev.
Well, they could have lived with a federation not too long ago but Kiev killed that option from the start. So, time for it to face the consequences.

Hell, they could have even lived with another Yushchenko voted into office, but Maidan killed THAT option from the start.

Like McCain said at Maidan, standing next to neo-nazi leader Tyahnybok: "The entire world of half-wits and bozos is with you!'
Live Free or Die

Williston, VT

#18 Jul 29, 2014
rio wrote:
<quoted text>
Shut up, scumbag: Ukrainians in Canada don't get a say.
Half of the Ukrainians in Canada should probably be shipped off to a Nurenberg II.
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Ukrainian guards worse than Nazis, survivor says

Full story: The Winnipeg Free Press

A survivor of the Sobibor death camp testified that Ukrainian guards in Nazi-occupied Poland were worse than the Nazis' infamous paramilitary SS as he recalled his experiences Tuesday at the trial of John Demjanjuk.
Live Free or Die

Williston, VT

#19 Jul 29, 2014
Pro-Ukraine wrote:
<quoted text>
Please provide evidence of that! And I'm not talking about some emotionally crap from RT, I'm talking about evidence!
The referendums are perfectly fine evidence. If you don't like them, call for your own.

'Oh, that wouldn't be legal' you say.

I say it's as legal as anything that happened at Maidan. So, start from scratch if you prefer. You don't get to cherry pick your legalities in this world, no matter who backs you.

Since: May 14

Espoo, Finland

#20 Jul 29, 2014
Live Free or Die wrote:
<quoted text>
The referendums are perfectly fine evidence. If you don't like them, call for your own.
'Oh, that wouldn't be legal' you say.
I say it's as legal as anything that happened at Maidan. So, start from scratch if you prefer. You don't get to cherry pick your legalities in this world, no matter who backs you.
So it's legal to you, even though Ukraine seized 100.000 pre-filled ballots when stopping a separatist''s car before the referendum took place?

You just made yourself look even more .... won't say it, lol

http://www.businessinsider.com/yes-ballots-uk...

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