Cyprus to become all Turkish in 2035

Cyprus to become all Turkish in 2035

Posted in the Cyprus Forum

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Ben Doone

UK

#1 Mar 16, 2006
Rejecting Kofi: Long Term Consequences in Cyprus

by John Tirman

The predictable rejection of the Annan Plan in Greek Cyprus, and the less predictable but somewhat encouraging endorsement of it in the north, now must be reckoned with: There will be consequences in keeping the island divided, and doing so at the same time that Cyprus entered the European Union and Turkey's own aspirations for membership are about to reach another crucial test in late 2004. The consequences might very well include a new kind of Cyprus one day, perhaps two decades hence, shaped not by negotiation and reconciliation, but by the harsh momentum of globalization and the Europeanization of the Levant.

In declining the Annan Plan, the government of the Republic of Cyprus in effect declined to acknowledge the looming reality of Turkey's EU membership. During the negotiations, Greek Cypriot leaders insisted on a kind of open borders policy that united Europe has fashioned---one cannot dispute that this is a desirable ideal if the EU is a meaningful concept. The "derogations" from this principle of free movement of people within the EU were being sought by the Turkish side, who sought some assurances that Cyprus would not one day be overwhelmed by the superior numbers and capital of Greek Cypriots seeking their old properties or simply populating the attractive coastline of the north, which, among other attractions, is far less garishly developed than the south. Thus the fundament of the EU experiment---open borders and common citizenship---were upheld by the Greek Cypriot side and proved to be one of the main points of contention in the debate over the Annan/DeSoto design.

Now, look forward to 15-20 years from now. Turkey is about to enter the EU.(Both Greece and Greek Cyprus have said they will not veto Turkey's ascension, mind you, though the proof of that is yet to come, and there's still Germany and France for Ankara to deal with.) Among the impacts of Turkey's need to conform with European economic standards is the disemployment of 12-15 million agrarian workers. Where they will go and what they will do is the crucial question on Turkey's European path. But one thing is almost a certainty: many will go to Cyprus. A million or so could easily be lured to a prosperous Cyprus, which needs cheap foreign labor anyway, now imports nannies and maids from Sri Lanka, the Philippines, and other non-African places, and would surely be a destination of choice for the poor of Anatolia just a few miles away.

By 2035 or so, Cyprus would be a Turkish island in all but name. Citizenship could not be denied these Turks, and soon they would dominate politically. The exodus of wealthy Greek Cypriots to the Greek mainland would quicken as their fate became clear---living in Turkish Cyprus, not the TRNC of the north, but the Republic of Cyprus, in a united Cyprus, in a European Cyprus, in which they might comprise 30-40 percent of the population, speak a minority language, be taught by Turkish teachers and policed by Turkish gendarmes, and all the other imagined or real indignities that are often visited upon minority populations the world over.

Had the Greek Cypriot leadership struck a deal on this 20-30 year problem early in 2004 as part of the Annan-sponsored talks, when their negotiating power was at its height, this spectre---the final and absolute end of Greek Cyprus---might have been averted. There still may be ways it is averted or (at best) attenuated through many years to come of plaintive insistence. But the time to get it right was 2004. And that opportunity, unless they revert to the veto, is probably lost as well for good.
Sotirios

UK

#2 Mar 17, 2006
So what do you think of this assessment Doone?
Ben Doone

UK

#3 Mar 17, 2006
Sotirios wrote:
So what do you think of this assessment Doone?
Left to their own devices people will always move to places where they feel they can better their lives in some way.

With globalisation, I suspect not only Cyprus but the whole of the Aegean region will probably witness movement of Greek and Turkish people to each other's respective countries in the next quarter of a century.

Once Turkey is in the EU (which I think will happen much sooner than 20-25 years predicted in the article) not only Turks will be able to settle in Cyprus and/or the Aegean islands off the Turkish coast, I suspect many Greeks will also settle in more upmarket coastal cities in Turkey. After all Greeks and Turks lived together in harmony in Anatolia for centuries.

The curse of Cyprus has been the rise of nationalism and the deliberate cultivation of hatred and superiority by the Church and others to serve the 'megalo idea'.

The greatest handicap/Achilles heel of the Greek side seems to be the way they educate their children to view the Turks. Normally very sane individuals have a pathological hatred of anything Turkish. In the long run this harms the Greeks themselves more than anyone else, as we have witnessed in Cyprus. We have seen how pathetically childish some GCs (students of the Hellenic Institute!) are in this forum when they resort to a barrage of abuse and derogatory remarks re the Turks (mongols, gypsies, malaka,toupkopaidia etc etc).

Read ‘Birds Without Wings’ by Louis de Berniere. Wonderful historical novel of Turco-Greek co existence in south west Turkey last century. It shows the reverse side of the coin. When there is harmony cultural diversity makes life much more interesting, which as someone who lives in the UK you probably know.

So the question is how and when will the Greeks change their racist culture and accept Turkish people as equal human beings.
David

Cyprus

#4 Mar 17, 2006
Go and read your own history and then come and accuse me of a racist and nationalist.When will you ever finish the job that Kemal started,not to worry you are almost there only the Kurds are left.We dont need to educate our kids on how to view the turks cause you dont need to be superintelligent to see the way your Generals and most of your politicians act.A superpower like turkey still hasnt got nuclear weapons?.Come on guys change speed.
What you are going to wait 20-25 years before you settle the aegean..?Get with the programme you already got the aegean mapped out divided into 2.Who blames you anyway? You are 75,000,000 after all.
Ben Doone

UK

#5 Mar 17, 2006
David wrote:
Go and read your own history and then come and accuse me of a racist and nationalist.When will you ever finish the job that Kemal started,not to worry you are almost there only the Kurds are left.We dont need to educate our kids on how to view the turks cause you dont need to be superintelligent to see the way your Generals and most of your politicians act.A superpower like turkey still hasnt got nuclear weapons?.Come on guys change speed.
What you are going to wait 20-25 years before you settle the aegean..?Get with the programme you already got the aegean mapped out divided into 2.Who blames you anyway? You are 75,000,000 after all.
I think you've got completely the wrong end of the stick there! Get someone more intelligent to explain it to you.
David

Cyprus

#6 Mar 17, 2006
When will greeks change their racists culture??????????
Educate our kids to hate turks??????????
And all this by somebody where in his homeland there isnt even free speech!!!
Sotirios

UK

#7 Mar 17, 2006
Ben Doone wrote:
<quoted text>

Left to their own devices people will always move to places where they feel they can better their lives in some way.

With globalisation, I suspect not only Cyprus but the whole of the Aegean region will probably witness movement of Greek and Turkish people to each other's respective countries in the next quarter of a century.

Once Turkey is in the EU (which I think will happen much sooner than 20-25 years predicted in the article) not only Turks will be able to settle in Cyprus and/or the Aegean islands off the Turkish coast, I suspect many Greeks will also settle in more upmarket coastal cities in Turkey. After all Greeks and Turks lived together in harmony in Anatolia for centuries.

The curse of Cyprus has been the rise of nationalism and the deliberate cultivation of hatred and superiority by the Church and others to serve the 'megalo idea'.

The greatest handicap/Achilles heel of the Greek side seems to be the way they educate their children to view the Turks. Normally very sane individuals have a pathological hatred of anything Turkish. In the long run this harms the Greeks themselves more than anyone else, as we have witnessed in Cyprus. We have seen how pathetically childish some GCs (students of the Hellenic Institute!) are in this forum when they resort to a barrage of abuse and derogatory remarks re the Turks (mongols, gypsies, malaka,toupkopaidia etc etc).

Read ‘Birds Without Wings’ by Louis de Berniere. Wonderful historical novel of Turco-Greek co existence in south west Turkey last century. It shows the reverse side of the coin. When there is harmony cultural diversity makes life much more interesting, which as someone who lives in the UK you probably know.

So the question is how and when will the Greeks change their racist culture and accept Turkish people as equal human beings.
Do you think the Turkish education system is free of bias against the greeks? I doubt it. At the ordinary human level most people are able to live together. In Greece for example now Mosques from the Ottoman era are being renovated as recognition of thet part of greek history. This would have been unthinkable years ago. However in Turkey the real power is the army and always has been. We see this when Turkish ministers talk about improvement in greek turkish relations but at the same time turkish warplanes violate greek airspace. Nationalism of the extreme type is more prevelent in turkey than in greece.
That is not to say that there are no progressive people in turkey. There are, and when they demonstrate they get arrested and beaten!
I think Turkish immigration will be mainly in traditional part of europe where the strong economies are such as germany, france or the uk. greece does not have the economic strength to support a large immigrant worker population.
Blackadder

UK

#8 Mar 18, 2006
Dear Sotorios

You are falling into the same trap as many of your compatriots.

I do not think that Papadopolous is a model of tolerance towards turks

How can a former EOKA terrorist enjoy such poplular support of a modern european country?

Do not sink down to the level of greek nationalists.

As far as Cyprus is concerned, what reason can you offer for Greek behaviours, past and present?

Yanks, Brits, others - not me gov!!

Wake up man !!
Sotirios

UK

#9 Mar 18, 2006
Blackadder wrote:
Dear Sotorios

You are falling into the same trap as many of your compatriots.

I do not think that Papadopolous is a model of tolerance towards turks

How can a former EOKA terrorist enjoy such poplular support of a modern european country?

Do not sink down to the level of greek nationalists.

As far as Cyprus is concerned, what reason can you offer for Greek behaviours, past and present?

Yanks, Brits, others - not me gov!!

Wake up man !!
I am awake Blackadder.
I was trying to say that attitudes are changing in Greece.
They have the same education system I guess.
I am not sinking down to any nationalistic level, and I think I made my stance pretty clear. I am only referring to the Turkish government that is more under thesway of the military than is democratically acceptable.
Blackadder

UK

#10 Mar 19, 2006
Dear Sotorios

It is good to see you think Greek attitudes are changing.

When Turkey & Greece can embrace as real friends, and the old antipathy ends, then it is great for all the Eastern Med.

However, you have not answered any of my substantive points about Papa..., who will will the forthcoming election.

How do you think he will build bridges, etc?
Sotirios

UK

#11 Mar 19, 2006
Blackadder wrote:
Dear Sotorios

It is good to see you think Greek attitudes are changing.

When Turkey & Greece can embrace as real friends, and the old antipathy ends, then it is great for all the Eastern Med.

However, you have not answered any of my substantive points about Papa..., who will will the forthcoming election.

How do you think he will build bridges, etc?
Dear Blackadder,

What exactly are Papadopoulos's crimes?
What crimes do you think he committed in his life?
Philippios

Limassol, Cyprus

#12 Mar 19, 2006
Some people are talking about "old properties"....How would the Brits feel if the French invaded 37% of British soil and cause the Brit population to move up North??? But that is Britain and they would be fighting 30 years on (literally and politically) not to allow the bl..... French to occupy that land. So don't let these people preach you about morals. Their stance is not for the good of T/c's or G/c's BUT TO KEEP THEIR BASES on the island, by keeping up the so-called dispute. There is no dispute; it is simply Turkey abandoning the island , but Turkey won't because is the spoilt brat of the AngloAmericans.

How would these people feel if there future and that of their children was severely affected by Turkeys invasion in Cyprus's Northern part and caused for nearly 200,000 G/cs to forcibly move, hence so as not to be captured (that's was the least) and another 120,000 T/c, both made refugees in their own lands?

Just for the record, 82% of the land in the North belongs to G/c's (Title deeds, bought over the years, and registered in the Land Registry); they obviously listen to the Turks which say that Cyprus is Turkish; it is not Turkish and it is not Greek either. But it does have a Greek majority and what is the problem of the Turks? I think both of us learned our lessons so far; it belongs to Cypriots, properties are there for their legal owners (G/c's & T/c's) and they should all return where they belong.
I personally do not care if the president is call Tassos Papadopoulos Or Mehmet Ali Talat; all I care is to have no less rights than other Europeans. And this is what they have tried to restrict us from the Anan Plan. The AngloAmericans want to solve it that way? Then they have to be ready to put their hands deep im their pockets for what they have caused us in the background many years ago..all for their bl.... bases! There is no way to accept such a harsh plan on Human rights for the people of these island (150,000 illegally present Turkish settlers Excluded).
Philippios-From Kyrenia

Limassol, Cyprus

#13 Mar 19, 2006
Unlike Germany, Cyprus didn't start a war, but it was invaded due to the faulse excuse given/provided to Turkey; and it took it, without the OTHER 2 Guarantor powers doing anything to prevent it , only Greece (due to affiliation) later on.

Germany caused for a lot of suffering and paid (and still paying) in many ways, cause it invaded and occupied other countries. Where is Turkey and how it is being regarded nowadays? Pretty clean image, polished up, thanks to its Angloamerican patrons.
Cyprus does not belong to them and they are not allowed to simply pass it on to Turkey as a gift through the Anan Plan. There is a way to solve it, if they want to; the right way, a way that will allow the people to bond on this Island as they were many years ago (except the hotheads, both sides).
Blackadder

UK

#14 Mar 20, 2006
Sotirios wrote:
<quoted text>

Dear Blackadder,

What exactly are Papadopoulos's crimes?
What crimes do you think he committed in his life?
Dear Sotorios

He was a leader of EOKA, he was a close and dear friend of Grivas as well.

In my book, he must have been aware of crimes of EOKA, in the 1950's against UK troops, and thereafter against Turks.

In my book, that makes hime a criminal even if he was never indicted.

As for you, I note you are changing your tone to one of sardonic irony, which is a pity.

I do not expect you, or any Greeks to agree with a different view about Cyprus, but it seems to me that once someone like me comes along and REALLY challenges the greek view, it only takes a short while for attitudes to move away from an even handed debate.

Papadopolous is now the acceptable face of Greek nationalism within Cyprus.

You would have to be seriously deluded if you think this guy is capable of considering the turks his equal.

He was involved in all the EOKA crap of 1950-74 - you know that and I know that.

Your questions in this post demean you.
Sotirios

UK

#15 Mar 20, 2006
Blackadder wrote:
<quoted text>

Dear Sotorios

He was a leader of EOKA, he was a close and dear friend of Grivas as well.

In my book, he must have been aware of crimes of EOKA, in the 1950's against UK troops, and thereafter against Turks.

In my book, that makes hime a criminal even if he was never indicted.

As for you, I note you are changing your tone to one of sardonic irony, which is a pity.

I do not expect you, or any Greeks to agree with a different view about Cyprus, but it seems to me that once someone like me comes along and REALLY challenges the greek view, it only takes a short while for attitudes to move away from an even handed debate.

Papadopolous is now the acceptable face of Greek nationalism within Cyprus.

You would have to be seriously deluded if you think this guy is capable of considering the turks his equal.

He was involved in all the EOKA crap of 1950-74 - you know that and I know that.

Your questions in this post demean you.
Blackadder,

Firstly, there was no irony intended in my question. I am merely trying to find out specifics about your dislike of this man. It was a genuine question. I personally don't know that much of his history. I intent to read up on it especially with regards to any crimes he may or may not have committed agains the TCs. Insofar as any attacks agains British soldiers are concerned well, that was a straight forward war of independence against the British army. Of course I regret that we ever had to come to that, and may I remind you many GCs fought for the British in WW2 including including my father.
I think I have said this before, but I have always tried to be completely fair in our discussions. I really don't want to be involved in a slanging match unless I feel unjustly provoked. For me this is an extremely serious issue that I want to talk about. Again as I said before,my family has lost a whole lifetime's work. We have lost hundreds of thousands of pounds in land and property and we have never hurt anybody Turk or otherwise.
I merely ask that you extend the same courtesy as I extend to you regardless of our dissagreements.
7 years on

UK

#16 Apr 24, 2013
7 years on this it starting to make a lot of sense
Cyprus will be all Turkish before 2035 it seems
cat gc uk

London, UK

#17 May 1, 2013
not in a million years this topix is so rubbish it will never happen your forgetting that cyprus is actually greek always has been the turks from turkland should f out of cyprus the english and mainly the americans dont help matters picking on the smaller island
dino gc uk

London, UK

#18 May 1, 2013
were would turkey be if they didnt get their helpers to help turkey is quite weak it has the yanks and english backing them up the greeks on the whole are fighters if we had the help and support like the turks had we greeks would have our island back and this rubbish shouldnt be on computer because this is insulting to us and alot of greeks would feel insulted on this topix
Greek Kid

UK

#19 May 1, 2013
dino gc uk wrote:
were would turkey be if they didnt get their helpers to help turkey is quite weak it has the yanks and english backing them up the greeks on the whole are fighters if we had the help and support like the turks had we greeks would have our island back and this rubbish shouldnt be on computer because this is insulting to us and alot of greeks would feel insulted on this topix
Can you hear yourself ? stupid Little Greek 'Kid'
Nationalist Turk

Harrow, UK

#20 May 1, 2013
North Cyprus officially has 300,000 Turks. Unofficially its population is estimated at somewhere between 500,000 to 700,000 Turks. The Pseudo-Republic in the South has 800,000 people, but only 600,000 of them are Greek Cypriots and Ermenians and naturalised citizens from other countries. The rest of the 200,000 are immigrants from other diverse countries who don't all share similar language, culture and values with the Greek Cypriot population (over 20,000 are Sri Lankans, Filipinos and Vietnamese).

The futures bright. The futures Turkish.

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