1 : Henry Morgentaler's naming to Order of Canada met with controversy

[Rik]

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>
Some women don't believe that in the first part of pregnancy there IS life, so they don't believe they are taking a life.
If their intent is not as we see it, we may be harshly condemning what is innocent in the intent.
It's wise to be careful. Condemnation of others is harsh judgment, and there may be a high price to pay FOR that condemnation.
That's just my belief.

Hey June, thats the post I was apologising for.. Once again,, i'm sorry.

[June VanDerMark]

Rik wrote:

<quoted text>
Hey June, thats the post I was apologising for.. Once again,, i'm sorry.

Oh ... now I understand. Thank you for explaining!

[June VanDerMark]

paul shykora wrote:

I's Am...PRO-CHIOCE..here.BUT.than kyous'..June VanDerMark..for giving out your REAL NAME here!!THANKYOUS'!!GO Bless.....The hillbilly farmboy has spoken,now CALGARY STAMPEDE ..yodeling..eh...

Now I'm from the hills too, and so I recognize when people have had their snouts in too much moonshine!

:)

[R C Honey]

paul shykora wrote:

I's Am...PRO-CHIOCE..here.BUT.than kyous'..June VanDerMark..for giving out your REAL NAME here!!THANKYOUS'!!GO Bless.....The hillbilly farmboy has spoken,now CALGARY STAMPEDE ..yodeling..eh...

paul paul paul..... how on earth did you find me. Yes I am PC as well.

[June VanDerMark]

paul shykora wrote:

I's Am...PRO-CHIOCE..here.BUT.than kyous'..June VanDerMark..for giving out your REAL NAME here!!THANKYOUS'!!GO Bless.....The hillbilly farmboy has spoken,now CALGARY STAMPEDE ..yodeling..eh...

And I forgot to state that "you are very welcome" for me giving out my real name. I'm honored that you acknowledge that issue.

[R C Honey]

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>
Now I'm from the hills too, and so I recognize when people have had their snouts in too much moonshine!
:)

I've 'known' him for a while June. He's a cutie!

[June VanDerMark]

R C Honey wrote:

<quoted text>I've 'known' him for a while June. He's a cutie!

Well that goes without saying!!! Everybody in them hills is cute. Of course that's AFTER I bin imbibing in the moonshine.

Next mornin though, everybody is back to being ugly as hell!

:)

[Jessica]

Rik wrote:

And,,,, Why dont these,,women either take the pill, or have there johns wear a hat,, or maby,, keep there legs closed. Killing an inocent baby should NEVER be an option..

First of all: Many women do take all the (available) precautions, but shit happens. There are many, many (subtle) things that can mangle with the efficacy of the Pill, and the usage of a condom can never absolutely guarantee that one won't get pregant.

Secondly, to say that a woman should "keep her legs closed," so to speak, is retrograde in regards to women's rights, particularly the right of every woman to control her own body. To say that a woman should never have sex unless she is trying to recreate (this is what I believe you are implicating) is to oppress a woman's right to being a sexual being (you know, that NATURAL right whose possession by man has never been questioned), and to reduce her sexuality to be NOTHING more than a means of making her into a human incubator. Whether a woman wants to have sex in order to have a baby, or whether she wants to do it for pleasure, is certainly something that shouldn't be subjected to your, or society's, judgement. And like I said: Women do have sex responsibly. But responsibility cannot guarantee desired results.

The pro-choice movement is not about women running around having IRRESPONSIBLE sex. It advocates safe sex, and seeks to minimize unwanted pregnancies, and thus, to minimize the number of abortions. The movement strove (and still strives) to provide women with a safe and legal last resort.

[Night Train]

Jessica wrote:

<quoted text>
First of all: Many women do take all the (available) precautions, but shit happens. There are many, many (subtle) things that can mangle with the efficacy of the Pill, and the usage of a condom can never absolutely guarantee that one won't get pregant.
Secondly, to say that a woman should "keep her legs closed," so to speak, is retrograde in regards to women's rights, particularly the right of every woman to control her own body. To say that a woman should never have sex unless she is trying to recreate (this is what I believe you are implicating) is to oppress a woman's right to being a sexual being (you know, that NATURAL right whose possession by man has never been questioned), and to reduce her sexuality to be NOTHING more than a means of making her into a human incubator. Whether a woman wants to have sex in order to have a baby, or whether she wants to do it for pleasure, is certainly something that shouldn't be subjected to your, or society's, judgement. And like I said: Women do have sex responsibly. But responsibility cannot guarantee desired results.
The pro-choice movement is not about women running around having IRRESPONSIBLE sex. It advocates safe sex, and seeks to minimize unwanted pregnancies, and thus, to minimize the number of abortions. The movement strove (and still strives) to provide women with a safe and legal last resort.

Excellent post Jessica, very well stated.

[June VanDerMark]

Jessica wrote:

<quoted text>
First of all: Many women do take all the (available) precautions, but shit happens. There are many, many (subtle) things that can mangle with the efficacy of the Pill, and the usage of a condom can never absolutely guarantee that one won't get pregant.
Secondly, to say that a woman should "keep her legs closed," so to speak, is retrograde in regards to women's rights, particularly the right of every woman to control her own body. To say that a woman should never have sex unless she is trying to recreate (this is what I believe you are implicating) is to oppress a woman's right to being a sexual being (you know, that NATURAL right whose possession by man has never been questioned), and to reduce her sexuality to be NOTHING more than a means of making her into a human incubator. Whether a woman wants to have sex in order to have a baby, or whether she wants to do it for pleasure, is certainly something that shouldn't be subjected to your, or society's, judgement. And like I said: Women do have sex responsibly. But responsibility cannot guarantee desired results.
The pro-choice movement is not about women running around having IRRESPONSIBLE sex. It advocates safe sex, and seeks to minimize unwanted pregnancies, and thus, to minimize the number of abortions. The movement strove (and still strives) to provide women with a safe and legal last resort.

Very well stated Jessica. However, I would like to add that Rik did apologize, and that is worthy of acknowledgement.

I also would like to advocate that many women who want to keep abortion legal, do not support the idea OF women having abortions. They just know from history that many women will have abortions, and want those women to have the best care possible so that they will be able to carry on with their lives after the fact. How they deal with the after-affects of the abortions is their lot in life.

My lot in life is to try to save the girls and women so that their loss will not be ADDED to the loss of the fetuses/babies.

JMO

[June VanDerMark]

Years ago, I conversed with a registered nurse who assisted as women had abortions. She stated how personally she did not believe in abortion. I then asked her if it bothered her to assist as other women had abortions, and she said that her focus was to give the women the best care possible ... to not judge them ... and to be thankful that they did not feel the necessity to go to back alleys, be mutilated and die. She maintained the choice of abortion was theirs ... and the choice to try to keep the women from mutilation and death was hers.

It's all a matter of how the issues are perceived. I admired the nurse for her ability to go beyond her narrow perception, to see that even though she didn't agree with abortion, she wanted to save the lives of those who had made the difficult choices to have abortions.

[pupsy]

So, who here thinks Morgantaler should be named in the Order of Canada?

I think it is sick!
I say that Paul Bernardo and Robert Picton get named next!!

[Canada]

pupsy wrote:

So, who here thinks Morgantaler should be named in the Order of Canada?
I think it is sick!
I say that Paul Bernardo and Robert Picton get named next!!

Order of Canada nominations met with controversy as Henry Morgentaler's name included

Canada said in the North America Forum:

Ridiculous

When we simply stated Ridiculous that he's being considered at ALL & cannot change that Comment Once Posted now without destroying the Thread, meaning that he's on the List at All with so many others notable & Conrad Black being considered to be taken Off the List while Don Cherry being considered to be on the List etc & but Seeing new posts with many differing informations being offered, we've posted it to the news page from Forums etc...

[June VanDerMark]

pupsy wrote:

So, who here thinks Morgantaler should be named in the Order of Canada?
I think it is sick!
I say that Paul Bernardo and Robert Picton get named next!!

Human honors are stupid anyway, because they put one human above another.

I don't honor Henry Morgentaler, but I do try to understand how he perceived the issues that were placed in his life and how he dealt with them to the best of his ability.

And after reading the book "The Doctor Who Couldn't Turn Away," I began to see the man in a different light.

He previously had a thriving practice, a family, and he was a free man. He gave all that up because women were suffering and dying, and he knew he had the skills to save their lives.

Many of these women never had the money to pay for their abortions, and he would still help them through their difficult times. He even gave them money to get back home.

Judge if you will, but I'm just thankful that I wasn't faced with the difficult choices that came his way.

[Night Train]

Canada wrote:

<quoted text>
Order of Canada nominations met with controversy as Henry Morgentaler's name included
Canada said in the North America Forum:
Ridiculous
When we simply stated Ridiculous that he's being considered at ALL & cannot change that Comment Once Posted now without destroying the Thread, meaning that he's on the List at All with so many others notable & Conrad Black being considered to be taken Off the List while Don Cherry being considered to be on the List etc & but Seeing new posts with many differing informations being offered, we've posted it to the news page from Forums etc...

Wow, Don Cherry being considered, now that really lends a lot of credibility to the award now doesn't it? I thought the Order of Canada was supposed to mean something significant. I guess that was a misunderstanding on my part. If Don Cherry qualifies, then perhaps the Order of Canada isn't a worthy enough award for Dr. Morgentaler.

[June VanDerMark]

Night Train wrote:

<quoted text>Wow, Don Cherry being considered, now that really lends a lot of credibility to the award now doesn't it? I thought the Order of Canada was supposed to mean something significant. I guess that was a misunderstanding on my part. If Don Cherry qualifies, then perhaps the Order of Canada isn't a worthy enough award for Dr. Morgentaler.

I was once voted in as "citizen of the year." I had a difficult time with that award, because I had previously stated that I did not want, or believe in such awards. Yet I did not want to be rude to those who believed they were giving me an honor.

The person who is being chosen, then becomes the target of other people who may agree, or disagree with the so-called honor.

I believe that Henry Morgentaler has gone through quite enough abuse, without heaping this on his shoulders, because in one way, those who believe they are superior to him, will rake him through the hot coals again.

I think when some people try to honor others with awards, they don't realize the jealousy, and venom that they bring to the one who had nothing whatever to do with the bestowing of the award.

Awards,(akin to organized religion,) cause nothing but division and ill feelings.

If one must be pumped up by a flashy award, then the every day sense of "giving" loses it's value. It encourages people to climb over others in the "grab" for the award.

Sharing and giving can be taught by example, and needs no glorification. If the heart is geared in concern of others, caring should come natural.

I'm against awards.

[Stanley25]

Cheers & Jeers

Cheers to the Bishop for taking a principled stand and returning the Order of Obscenity.

Cheers to Madonna House for same.

Cheers to Harper for distancing his government from the selection committee who chose Morgue-enthraller, siting the selection guidelines call for a recipient who unites rather than divides Canadians.

Cheers to High Priestess Bev McLachlin and radical feminist buddies on the Supreme Court advisory council selection committee for outing themselves with this public debacle.

Cheers to the Coalition for demonstrating against this award today

Jeers to vote-whore McGuinty for his support of the award. In Ontario, He's a big contributer to the problem of child poverty. While granting himself huge raises in the order of 30-40%, he supressed minimum wages, while other jurisdictions raised theirs.

Jeers to Morgue-enthraller's butcher shop. There is no irony lost that this holocaust survivor carries on Hitler's work with his high volume human extermination practice.

[PAUL SHYKORA]

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>
And I forgot to state that "you are very welcome" for me giving out my real name. I'm honored that you acknowledge that issue.

WOW!!Positve,HAPPY,kind...stat ements for a chance...eh...Thankyous'!!GOD Bless...ONWARD.....eh....

[PAUL SHYKORA]

R C Honey wrote:

<quoted text>paul paul paul..... how on earth did you find me. Yes I am PC as well.

THE FORCES of GOOD.....The Shuswap Elders have taught Me ...well..GOD Bless.....eh....

[June VanDerMark]

Stanley25 wrote:

Cheers & Jeers
Cheers to the Bishop for taking a principled stand and returning the Order of Obscenity.
Cheers to Madonna House for same.
Cheers to Harper for distancing his government from the selection committee who chose Morgue-enthraller, siting the selection guidelines call for a recipient who unites rather than divides Canadians.
Cheers to High Priestess Bev McLachlin and radical feminist buddies on the Supreme Court advisory council selection committee for outing themselves with this public debacle.
Cheers to the Coalition for demonstrating against this award today
Jeers to vote-whore McGuinty for his support of the award. In Ontario, He's a big contributer to the problem of child poverty. While granting himself huge raises in the order of 30-40%, he supressed minimum wages, while other jurisdictions raised theirs.
Jeers to Morgue-enthraller's butcher shop. There is no irony lost that this holocaust survivor carries on Hitler's work with his high volume human extermination practice.

If one of the female members of your family, or one of your closest female friends believed that abortion was the lesser of two evils in her life, and because of despair chose to have an abortion ... would you rather she went to an unqualified person in a back alley with a high chance of being mutilated or dying ... or would you rather she went to a clinic, where her chances of survival are on a much higher scale?

Judging other people is easy, while understanding from all angles is impossible.

It is the human blight of "tunnel-vision," ... from which we all suffer.

JMO