We're Already Fighting With Iran

[Pierre France]

Well Ken, Naugatucks post is actually bang on the timing mechanism.

I also understand your POV, but I think it's VITALLY important to think. To think clearly.

We may not like Iran, for whatever reason. I personally despise the Burman Junta, and the attitude of the Chinese towards Tibet. The Sri Lankan government's attitude towards the Tamils sucks big-time too. But it doesn't stop me thinking clearly and attempting to do what little I can to change things.

The only people who think there is a "new-clee-yar" menace from Iran are the neocons, mindlessly stupid people and the frankly fascist zionist nuts in Israel. All other sane and well informed people go "bullshit" to the neocons preposterous spin and lies.
Iran will NOT change if attacked, because the neocons are completely deluded fuckwits who have burnt all the bridges and have embarked on some kind of crazed "end of times" nonsense, and are now feeling the pressure, because they WILL be thrown out at the end of the year, despite the old fossil they prop up, and their brief (although it feels like an eternity..) reign as Lords of War is over, so they have to bomb Iran NOW, to start the third world war and bring about the coming of the Messiah.
Dick has shares in the "Welcome, Messiah" sign making companies, and in the Armageddon Insurance Co., so he's interested in making sure that this war goes down before the "evil Democrats who hate profiteering (well, only a little..)" roll up the neocons and the connedservatives and repaint the White House white, instead of the murkey shade of Hell-spawned blood red it was becoming.

As for Iran giving a nuke to a terrorist organisation, hey, c'mon. Think, dude. It's not rocket science.
A nuke is a giant fingerprint, and letting one off anywhere immediately say's "Hello, I'm from Iran, or from the Ukrainian stockpile, or one of the nukes thought lost in the sunken US or Russian submarines."
So it's going to be easy to track down the suppliers. Unlike with fertiliser and a bit of ingenuity.
Seriously, what nation would risk that ?
And what goal would it serve ?
People still think al Patsi hit NY on 9/11, but why ? What did it bring them ? Other than a great deal of bombs on their head, the complete remilitarisation of the US War-Machine, the introduction of quasi-fascist state-control, and a war to kill all the Muslims and steal..er, liberate the oil.
Al Patsi's safe country was destroyed, gas pipelines thrust through the resurgent poppy fields, and the supposed attack was used to launch the "war to end all wars" by the spinning neocon fearorists who terrified the gullible American people into giving them total control so they could go and enact the PNAC plan for world domination, and reshape the Muddle East according to Ralph Peters "Greater Middle East" mumbo.
Yeah, bravo, Osama ! that was well planned. Not. Bwaaa-haa-haa ha !!

And you fell for it !

[I dont know]

What is being discussed here is an enemy that will die trying to kill non muslims, is it not?

[Age]

Kenhunt wrote:

<quoted text>And another thing, yes question the government and media, but do not end up thinking your government is the enemy and thus hating it, as does FAV. To me the most patriotic thing an American can do is run for office or actively support someone who is running. Not much anyone says on Topix amounts to a hill of beans; just fun as brain candy.

I grew up thinking the most patriotic act was to be willing to lay down your life for your country. Not me (I have flat feet). USA has been compared to Rome. I would not fiddle (tone deaf), but I begin to see comparisons that are frightening. Not sure what FAV hates, but evidently he has his reasons. Would be nice if he shared. Okay, I promised not to intrude, and once again, cannot resist. Think of me as mouse, and at the first hint of danger, I will run for my safety.

[Kenhunt]

Pierre, you drone on so long I lose interest, but I will try and answer your astute questions. No, no there aren't any, so I will go with what you asked:

"A nuke is a giant fingerprint, and letting one off anywhere immediately say's "Hello, I'm from Iran, or from the Ukrainian stockpile, or one of the nukes thought lost in the sunken US or Russian submarines."
So it's going to be easy to track down the suppliers.
Seriously, what nation would risk that ?"

One, nuclear forensics are still primitive and imprecise. It is not easy to track down suppliers. Here is an article to that effect: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/...

And who's to say the device would be used on the USA, rather than, say, Israel or Germany or France? How is France at nuclear forensics? And even if we could trace a nuclear explosions' point of manufacture under idea conditions, conditions will not be ideal; for instance, it is possible to detonate a nuclear device and leave little or no fingerprints; For instance, set one off in the Houston Ship Channel where fires would burn for a year. Iran would risk that. Maybe Pakistan. Maybe a rouge Russian.

And if France were hit, say, Paris, and France could trace the weapons' origin to Pakistan, what would it do?

"And what goal would it serve ?" It would serveIslamists goal of doing irreparable harm to the Great Satan WEST and advancing the growth of Islam to a single caliphate.

You and I have had the rest of this discussion before. You seem to see Islamism as a minor annoyance, almost a joke. I see it as very real, very dangerous. I I am nobody's gullible patsy. It is even possible that I know more than you do on this subject. We can let history resolve that .difference, eh.

[Kenhunt]

Age wrote:

<quoted text> I grew up thinking the most patriotic act was to be willing to lay down your life for your country. Not me (I have flat feet). USA has been compared to Rome. I would not fiddle (tone deaf), but I begin to see comparisons that are frightening. Not sure what FAV hates, but evidently he has his reasons. Would be nice if he shared. Okay, I promised not to intrude, and once again, cannot resist. Think of me as mouse, and at the first hint of danger, I will run for my safety.

I too grew up with that idea, but I'd put it in the top three. Please, I enjoy your comments!

[Age]

Kenhunt wrote:

<quoted text>I too grew up with that idea, but I'd put it in the top three. Please, I enjoy your comments!

Ken H! Really? Because I do not have the requisite grey matter to compete. I am opinionated and have a stubborn streak. For example, you could tell me that the world is flat. And I would say nay, we haven't yet leveled all of it. Thanks.:)

[US Citizen 07]

Age wrote:

<quoted text> I grew up thinking the most patriotic act was to be willing to lay down your life for your country. Not me (I have flat feet). USA has been compared to Rome. I would not fiddle (tone deaf), but I begin to see comparisons that are frightening. Not sure what FAV hates, but evidently he has his reasons. Would be nice if he shared. Okay, I promised not to intrude, and once again, cannot resist. Think of me as mouse, and at the first hint of danger, I will run for my safety.

It's kinda hard to put the past 1/2 century of our history into a nutshell. Start researching, try some books and documentories.

Before you know it a larger picture starts to form and it starts getting easy to see how events and issues tie in together.

Good thing is Bush is almost out, Cheney should drop dead soon (crosses fingers). Corruption will not end, but hopefully the killing will slow down. Hopefully.....

[ubetcha]

Age wrote:

<quoted text>Ken H! Really? Because I do not have the requisite grey matter to compete. I am opinionated and have a stubborn streak. For example, you could tell me that the world is flat. And I would say nay, we haven't yet leveled all of it. Thanks.:)

You are such a......You are such a ....Gentleman. Everybody likes you and I can't see why.:):):) I like you too, Age, but you are a little batty. Where's Mr. Kamia? Maybe doing a stretch on the French Riviera? Perhaps visiting the wine country of Pierre? Perhaps sitting right along side of him responding to these post while tipping back a bottle of MD20? Later, Dude. Don't let anybody discourage you from participating in this discussion. Let alone me. Bwaaaaaaaa. Mom always liked you best.:-)

[Kenhunt]

Age wrote:

<quoted text>Ken H! Really? Because I do not have the requisite grey matter to compete. I am opinionated and have a stubborn streak. For example, you could tell me that the world is flat. And I would say nay, we haven't yet leveled all of it. Thanks.:)

Sounds to me like you'd fit right in!

[Kenhunt]

I dont know wrote:

What is being discussed here is an enemy that will die trying to kill non muslims, is it not?

Ah, the words that must not be spoken!

[Ken Kamia]

ubetcha wrote:

<quoted text>
You are such a......You are such a ....Gentleman. Everybody likes you and I can't see why.:):):) I like you too, Age, but you are a little batty. Where's Mr. Kamia? Maybe doing a stretch on the French Riviera? Perhaps visiting the wine country of Pierre? Perhaps sitting right along side of him responding to these post while tipping back a bottle of MD20? Later, Dude. Don't let anybody discourage you from participating in this discussion. Let alone me. Bwaaaaaaaa. Mom always liked you best.:-)

Appears to me the conversation is hung in a serial fixed memory-dependent iteration loop.

Time for a new code.

[Pierre France]

Kenhunt wrote:

Pierre, you drone on so long I lose interest, but I will try and answer your astute questions. No, no there aren't any, so I will go with what you asked:
"A nuke is a giant fingerprint, and letting one off anywhere immediately say's "Hello, I'm from Iran, or from the Ukrainian stockpile, or one of the nukes thought lost in the sunken US or Russian submarines."
So it's going to be easy to track down the suppliers.
Seriously, what nation would risk that ?"
One, nuclear forensics are still primitive and imprecise. It is not easy to track down suppliers. Here is an article to that effect: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/...
And who's to say the device would be used on the USA, rather than, say, Israel or Germany or France? How is France at nuclear forensics? And even if we could trace a nuclear explosions' point of manufacture under idea conditions, conditions will not be ideal; for instance, it is possible to detonate a nuclear device and leave little or no fingerprints; For instance, set one off in the Houston Ship Channel where fires would burn for a year. Iran would risk that. Maybe Pakistan. Maybe a rouge Russian.

Sorry Ken, I try for glib one-liners, but with complex subjects, it's hard.
Hey, you can talk !
Why would Iran, or indeed, Pakistan, risk that ? What would it achieve ?
Unless, of course, they were attacked first. Uh-oh, neocons lust after "pre-emptive war"..
The whole point of WMD, Ken, is that they are DEFENSIVE weapons. They say to any potential aggressor "I will screw you up bad if you attack me."
No-one will condone or support the use of nukes, because after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we've seen the results. Further, as witnessed by Chernobyl, once nukes start going off, no-one is really safe from their effects.
France has plenty of experience with tracking fissile material. We're also well aware of the potential risks.

continued next post, we BOTH drone on too long..

[Pierre France]

Continued post;

Kenhunt wrote:

And if France were hit, say, Paris, and France could trace the weapons' origin to Pakistan, what would it do?
"And what goal would it serve ?" It would serveIslamists goal of doing irreparable harm to the Great Satan WEST and advancing the growth of Islam to a single caliphate.

Who want's a radioactive wasteland as a Caliphate ?
Indeed, who has the CAPACITY to run a Caliphate ? The US is incapable of running a global empire, and you were possibly the best suited logistically, what makes you think that the radical Islamists would be capable ? They can't even agree between themselves which version of Mohammed's followers teachings and writings are the right ones.
Seriously, a "global Caliphate" ?
In your dreams, Ken.
The whole idea of an Islamic Caliphate is neocon and fearorist "smoke and mirrors" propaganda, because it's not only physically impossible, but it's morally impossible.

Kenhunt wrote:

You and I have had the rest of this discussion before. You seem to see Islamism as a minor annoyance, almost a joke. I see it as very real, very dangerous. I I am nobody's gullible patsy. It is even possible that I know more than you do on this subject. We can let history resolve that .difference, eh.

It's not a joke, and it's a potential menace, but so are the Corsicans, so is organised crime (indeed, that's an even GREATER menace..) and so are lots of things.
I simply say that they are a TINY menace, which doesn't mean they should be ignored, but they are far more a distraction and a justification for our elites and leaders to beat us into submission with and heist our tax dollars for unweildy armies and imperial programs of conquest.
They are the "Phantom Menace" that the neocons try to fearorise you with.
Look at your defense (that's an oxymoron, BTW..) spending if you're having difficulty understanding.
Once the "evil reds" packed up and went home, the mil/ind complex was desperate to find a new "evil enemy who hates your freedumb" to justify their grasp on your balls. Schools, hospitals, healthcare for all, bridges that don't fall down and levy's that don't burst ?? Hell no !! Guns, bombs, missiles, tanks, battleships, satellites and "Start Wars" bullshit !! Yee-haa !!
"ka-ching" for the elites and "up yours" for the peasants.
It doesn't work for me, but I guess it does for you.
You have your "two-minute hate" to rant at, "evil Muslims who cut off heads and do terrible things" but you've missed the big issue, Ken, and that's the fascist monolith that is sliding up into place behind you.
Nuclear signatures.
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/1238/north-kor...
Read this, and then see if you see my point. The rest of the resources are also very valid. Maybe you'll better understand my POV if you spend some time reading. And, most importantly, thinking.
Have a great day, Ken.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php...

[Escargo]

Kenhunt wrote:

<quoted text>And another thing, yes question the government and media, but do not end up thinking your government is the enemy and thus hating it, as does FAV. To me the most patriotic thing an American can do is run for office or actively support someone who is running. Not much anyone says on Topix amounts to a hill of beans; just fun as brain candy.

“I am more determined than ever to carry on this campaign, until everyone has had a chance to make their voices heard,” she said.-HC, WVA Primary

THAT is how it SHOULD be in America.

When one runs for President, one should stay in for the WHOLE PRIMARY-start to finish, no matter WHAT the blow hard, spoon dipping, fungus flinging, force feeding media says.

[Liberal Woosie]

I doubt that you have the intellect or enough command of English to post more than a single sentence comment

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate wrote:

<quoted text>
Because you write like you're in middle school, I refuse to consider your argument.

[john]

bush wanted to show up dad so when he could he attacked iraq , now he needs a scape goat to tell why he couldnt so he picks the ones who threw out the puppet shaw and now wants more war to justify his blunders ,,,and mcbush wants the same , they want oil but could have converted much of the us if they had spent the same money here

[Kenhunt]

Pierre France wrote:

Continued post;
<quoted text>Who want's a radioactive wasteland as a Caliphate ?
Indeed, who has the CAPACITY to run a Caliphate ? The US is incapable of running a global empire, and you were possibly the best suited logistically, what makes you think that the radical Islamists would be capable ? They can't even agree between themselves which version of Mohammed's followers teachings and writings are the right ones.
Seriously, a "global Caliphate" ?
In your dreams, Ken.
The whole idea of an Islamic Caliphate is neocon and fearorist "smoke and mirrors" propaganda, because it's not only physically impossible, but it's morally impossible.
<quoted text>It's not a joke, and it's a potential menace, but so are the Corsicans, so is organised crime (indeed, that's an even GREATER menace..) and so are lots of things.
I simply say that they are a TINY menace, which doesn't mean they should be ignored, but they are far more a distraction and a justification for our elites and leaders to beat us into submission with and heist our tax dollars for unweildy armies and imperial programs of conquest.
They are the "Phantom Menace" that the neocons try to fearorise you with.
Look at your defense (that's an oxymoron, BTW..) spending if you're having difficulty understanding.
Once the "evil reds" packed up and went home, the mil/ind complex was desperate to find a new "evil enemy who hates your freedumb" to justify their grasp on your balls. Schools, hospitals, healthcare for all, bridges that don't fall down and levy's that don't burst ?? Hell no !! Guns, bombs, missiles, tanks, battleships, satellites and "Start Wars" bullshit !! Yee-haa !!
"ka-ching" for the elites and "up yours" for the peasants.
It doesn't work for me, but I guess it does for you.
You have your "two-minute hate" to rant at, "evil Muslims who cut off heads and do terrible things" but you've missed the big issue, Ken, and that's the fascist monolith that is sliding up into place behind you.
Nuclear signatures.
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/1238/north-kor...
Read this, and then see if you see my point. The rest of the resources are also very valid. Maybe you'll better understand my POV if you spend some time reading. And, most importantly, thinking.
Have a great day, Ken.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php...

I know we'll not agree on this. I hope I am wrong, but in this case, I doubt it. Cuddle up with your fuzzy little Islamists, and your 56 billion dollars a year in your French military budget. If your words don't do the job, history will prove you a fool, but that will not be a first for your corner of the old Europe.

[Kenhunt]

Cindy wrote:

Rape is one of the most barbaric forms of sexual humiliation and terror. Since the Civil War, rape has been increasingly integrated into what is known as total warfare. Women, girls and some boys have been increasingly singled out for systematic sexual abuse during civil conflicts and military campaigns. However, rape has only been limitedly employed against adult male captives detained in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantánamo or CIA black sites around the world.[see “’The Hard Hand of War’: Rape as an Instrument of Total War,” CounterPunch, Apri1 4, 2008]
The U.S. has employed (and, most likely, continues to employ) a host of other techniques of sexual terrorization to break male inmates. An act of sexual humiliation serves two purposes: to physically harm and to emotionally scar those subjected to such abuse. Sexual terrorization seeks to inflict both pain and shame, to make the recipient suffer and loath himself. Sexual humiliation is intended to break the victim both physically and spiritually, to leave scars on (and inside) the body and in the psyche.
If (or when) top officials of the Bush administration face either an American or international war crimes tribunal over their conduct related to the invasion and occupation of Iraq, sexual humiliation and terror should not be absent from the indictment.

The article you call out tells of only three cases by US soldiers, each of whom received long prison sentences from their own courts martial. It does not allege that the US has or is using rape as an instrument of war and you offer no proof of that allegation. Why you single out the Bush administration and omit those forces that in fact rape as a matter of policy, such as found in Africa by Islamists and in Haiti by Canadian soldiers is an interesting question. Otherwise, I agree that rape is a terrible crime and should be prosecuted to the maximum.

[proudredneck]

See a pattern here ?

Q: 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a:???
A: Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40.

2. Q: In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and
massacred by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

3. Q: In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

4. Q: During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon
by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

5. Q: In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

6. Q: In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year
old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his
wheelchair by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

7. Q: In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy
diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

8. Q: In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

9. Q: In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

10. Q: In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed
by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

11. Q: On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as
missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two,
one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed
by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

12. Q: In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

13. Q: In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

[Kenhunt]

proudredneck wrote:

See a pattern here ?
Q: 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a:???
A: Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40.
2. Q: In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and
massacred by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
3. Q: In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
4. Q: During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon
by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
5. Q: In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
6. Q: In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year
old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his
wheelchair by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
7. Q: In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy
diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
8. Q: In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
9. Q: In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
10. Q: In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed
by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
11. Q: On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as
missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two,
one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed
by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
12. Q: In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
13. Q: In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:???
A: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

Ah-ha! We'd better keep an eye on the Swedenborgians, eh! It won't matter how many Islamist atrocities you list, and such a list could run for pages, some folks will see Islamism as a tiny threat until the call to prayer issues from the spires of Notre Dame.