Russia Insists On Treating Sevastopol As An Open Question

[Stefanya]

Stefan wrote:

<quoted text>
Both Russians and Ukrainians fought for Crimea, all in the name of the great Russian empire. Cossaks in particular. But when that great Russian empire crumbled in 1991 it was divided up by the groups who made it up.
It was mutually agreed that any infrastructure (cities, industry, weapons, ect) inside each country would be theirs to keep. Crimea and Sevastopol was inside Ukraine and so would there remain.
End of story.

It is not the end of the story.....

[biomed_guy]

Stefanya wrote:

<quoted text>
They have no concept that Russia is integrated with many different types over the hundreds of years of history and that Ukrainians except for the biased Diaspora in North AMerica do not hate Russians.

Yes, the Ukrainian diaspora in Canada and those Orange fanatics should think about those 100-300 year old Russians still living in Ukraine.

[Baba Lu]

Stefanya wrote:

<quoted text>
YOu are the one shovelling propoganda... the rabidly hate-filled and incredibly biased propoganda of Diaspora.

Baba Lu replied:

I don't think I will reply to your comments anymore. You write dribble because you cannot disprove anything I have written. My comments make you irate because you know them to be true and you cannot defend against them. Which only shows that what you do try to defend is also based on lies. Do me and yourself a favor. Stay off the Russian and Ukrainian forums. Your input only makes your more educated cohorts look more pathetic than they are.

And on the diaspora issue; we should all thank them for bringing to light the truth about the past. They have always fought to educate the non Eastern Europeans about the disinformation shoveled by the Soviet Union. The truth about the savage Soviet ways. Holodomor, slave labor, death camps just to name a few. And thanks to all the diasporas who in no small measure gave hope to the enslaved Soviet masses and contributed to the Soviet demise. Well maybe not hope to all the Soviet masses. Yah not all of them like the ones that miss the good old days. Like you Stefanya and crew.

And the only former Republic that misses the good old days to some extent is Russia. It was on the top of the food chain in that hell and never felt its language, culture, history and identity would be snuffed. Them's the breaks. They will have to finally fend for themselves for once instead of breaking the backs of their neighbors for the glory.

Oh and maybe some of the backward peoples that were living in the stone age when the Soviets took them over and brought some level of education and civilization into their live are not too happy. Now they don't have such support and are back in the stone age. "What happened to us"?

I hope I didn't bore you too much.

Oh and by the way, I should have mentioned that computers are susceptible to severe damage if exposed to a raving madwoman pounding on it with her fists and being thrown about hither and dither.

Oops, too late. Ask one of your buddies to send you a copy of this reply.

I'll be looking down at you in the afterlife.

Ta Ta

[Red]

Right now democratic Ukraine must protect the Crimean Tatars from racist Russian neofascist chauvinists.

[Robespierre]

Red wrote:

Right now democratic Ukraine must protect the Crimean Tatars from racist Russian neofascist chauvinists.

ha, ha, ha.....

Hillarious!!!

Right now, Ukraine should consider restituting Crimea to Russia, its legitimate owner.

It's only mad Ukrainian Krutchev who took it from Russia to give it to Ukraine, trying to boost his image at home.

Since Ukraine has turned its back on communism, why does it still approve of an arbitrary communist decision and refuses to do the decent thing: give back Crimea to whom it belongs.

[Stefan]

Stefanya wrote:

<quoted text>
Eastern Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than it has with western Ukraine which was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and poland.
And they are not going to easily forget their roots and who they are more closely related to.

No, not much more in common.

Ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine have much more in common with Western Russians (maybe living within 100km of the border) but ethnic Ukrainians and mixed root Ukrainians have more in common with their western ethnic brothers.

You obviously don't understand true Ukrainian patriotism.

[Red]

Russia committed genocide against the Crimean Tatars and right now democratic Ukraine must protect the Crimean Tatars from racist Russian neofascist chauvinists.

Khrushchev was an ethnic Russian-and proud of it.

Khrushchev was the Butcher of Ukraine.

Khrushchev and the other Russian Bolshevik butchers could not conceive of an independent Ukraine, so to them, a mere administrative transfer was not a "gift".

Russian imperialism will never legitimize Russian ownership of anything.

Russia has never been a legitimate owner of Crimea--nor Chechnya either.

Russia's genocides against Crimeans must be acknowledged, apologized for and atoned for

[Robespierre]

Stefan wrote:

<quoted text>
You obviously don't understand true Ukrainian patriotism.

It looks like your brand of Ukrainian patriotism is only alive in Canada, among people who don't live in Ukraine.

Real Ukrainian, those who realy live in Ukraine, don't want to hear about your so-called patriotism.

[Red]

However diversionary or vulgar the racist Russian chauvinist is --and no matter how absurd and idiotic the twists and turns of Russia's chauvinistic claims to Ukraine are-- the fact is that Crimea is in Ukraine and Ukraine will defend its sovereignty and protect the rights of Crimeans.

Russia must get its fleet out so that the leased properties are sparkling clean and environmentally safe with all Russian crews and ships, and all evidence of Russia, gone by 2017 when the lease expires.

[Stefan]

Robespierre wrote:

<quoted text>
It looks like your brand of Ukrainian patriotism is only alive in Canada, among people who don't live in Ukraine.
Real Ukrainian, those who realy live in Ukraine, don't want to hear about your so-called patriotism.

Says who? A german/french/english mixed somebody, living in England?

You are cold hearted to the issue of Nationalism because you never had any. It is a foreign concept to you. Don't try and tell Ukrainians what they feel. They are as nationalistic as any other nationality.

[Zaporozhets]

Robespierre wrote:

<quoted text>
ha, ha, ha.....
Hillarious!!!
Right now, Ukraine should consider restituting Crimea to Russia, its legitimate owner.
It's only mad Ukrainian Krutchev who took it from Russia to give it to Ukraine, trying to boost his image at home.
Since Ukraine has turned its back on communism, why does it still approve of an arbitrary communist decision and refuses to do the decent thing: give back Crimea to whom it belongs.

An intriguing idea. But why stop there? Let's give Alsace-Lorraine back to its legitimate owner: Germany. It's high time, and we know the Germans will take much better care of it than the French.

[Robespierre]

Zaporozhets wrote:

<quoted text>
An intriguing idea. But why stop there? Let's give Alsace-Lorraine back to its legitimate owner: Germany. It's high time, and we know the Germans will take much better care of it than the French.

Absolutely!!
Do you think I care about a piece of land, or believe it's worth dying for? Not me!

I better tell you though, that the last time the good people of Alsace-Lorraine were consulted about their preference (1945), they declared they wanted to stay with France, although they are strictly speaking German speaking.

The fact that Alsace-Lorraine has been the object of a tug of war between Germany and France gave them a taste of both and in the end, they prefered sweet France to Germany; don't ask me why.

They may have changed their mind since, but I doubt it.

[Robespierre]

Stefan wrote:

<quoted text>
Says who? A german/french/english mixed somebody, living in England?
You are cold hearted to the issue of Nationalism because you never had any. It is a foreign concept to you. Don't try and tell Ukrainians what they feel. They are as nationalistic as any other nationality.

Maybe, but how can you reconcile playing the Ukrainian nationalist whilst being a Canadian citizen? That doesn't make sense!

If you were that interested in Ukraine and its destiny, you would have gone back to the land of your ancestors and play a part in its development, now that the threat that drove your forefathers away is gone.

Instead, you prefer to stay comfortably in Canada, and only use your Ukrainian heritage to give yourself an identity. It's like a trip in memory lane, isn't it, or looking at old postcards.

I am happy not to be possessed by nationalism which is outmoded and divisive.

[Stefan]

Robespierre wrote:

<quoted text>
Maybe, but how can you reconcile playing the Ukrainian nationalist whilst being a Canadian citizen? That doesn't make sense!
If you were that interested in Ukraine and its destiny, you would have gone back to the land of your ancestors and play a part in its development, now that the threat that drove your forefathers away is gone.
Instead, you prefer to stay comfortably in Canada, and only use your Ukrainian heritage to give yourself an identity. It's like a trip in memory lane, isn't it, or looking at old postcards.
I am happy not to be possessed by nationalism which is outmoded and divisive.

I disagree, Nationalism is an important part of who we all are. Your lack of Nationalism makes you bitter, unattached and aloof.

For fun lets compare east and west Ukraine.

Western Ukrainians are more nationalistic than their eastern brothers. That is a fact. History and persecution were the cause. Many more eastern Ukrainians were murdered, exiled, moved or integrated.

But that aside, which group is doing better, not financially but on a personal level (content with who they are and what they are).

Now lets look AIDS epidemic, drug usage, prostitution, and general happiness. These vises are in epidemic proportions in Eastern Ukraine.

Western Ukrainians make less that of their eastern counterparts, but every survey done shows that they are happier, have less problems with drugs, AIDS and prostitution.

Why do you think that is? Could it be lack of self confidence, self-respect, lack of dignity. Possibly!
Now look at what Nationalism does for ones self. It gives one pride, vision, worth, value. It makes someone important to themselves because they are important to the people around them.

I see it clear that eastern Ukrainians are more troubled regarding their Nationalism. Not all just a higher percentage, more than in the west. I surmise that the cause is the lack of nationalism. The type of Nationalism I mean is that which makes one want to go to war to protect family, to stand up to a bully to stay strong and respected.

See it as you will, but anyone who has ever tasted the fruit of Nationalism knows what I mean. To be nationalistic is to be part of an extended family that shares the same common view on God, family, and people.

I even respect Russian nationalist on this forum like Stefania. I don't agree with her mostly, but she believes in herself and her people. That is something of worth.

[Red]

Ukraine and Russia’s views of "Soviet" and "pre-Soviet" history are radically different.

Ukraine has moved to a Ukrainian national historiography, previously suppressed by imperialist Russia.

Putinist neofascist Russia on the other hand has continued to maintain its suprmacist Soviet Russophile and Russian chauvinistic interpretation of history.

School textbooks in both countries give radically different perspectives on every aspect of Russian-Ukrainian history over the last two millennia.

The history of Sevastopol and Crimea are no exceptions.

The fact is Crimea is in Ukraine now.

Democratic Ukraine must protect Crimean Tatars and other Ukrainian citizens from racist Russian neofascists, Russian chauvinists and Russian supremacists.

[Baba Lu]

Stefan wrote:

<quoted text>
I disagree, Nationalism is an important part of who we all are. Your lack of Nationalism makes you bitter, unattached and aloof.
For fun lets compare east and west Ukraine.
Western Ukrainians are more nationalistic than their eastern brothers. That is a fact. History and persecution were the cause. Many more eastern Ukrainians were murdered, exiled, moved or integrated.
But that aside, which group is doing better, not financially but on a personal level (content with who they are and what they are).
Now lets look AIDS epidemic, drug usage, prostitution, and general happiness. These vises are in epidemic proportions in Eastern Ukraine.
Western Ukrainians make less that of their eastern counterparts, but every survey done shows that they are happier, have less problems with drugs, AIDS and prostitution.
Why do you think that is? Could it be lack of self confidence, self-respect, lack of dignity. Possibly!
Now look at what Nationalism does for ones self. It gives one pride, vision, worth, value. It makes someone important to themselves because they are important to the people around them.
I see it clear that eastern Ukrainians are more troubled regarding their Nationalism. Not all just a higher percentage, more than in the west. I surmise that the cause is the lack of nationalism. The type of Nationalism I mean is that which makes one want to go to war to protect family, to stand up to a bully to stay strong and respected.
See it as you will, but anyone who has ever tasted the fruit of Nationalism knows what I mean. To be nationalistic is to be part of an extended family that shares the same common view on God, family, and people.
I even respect Russian nationalist on this forum like Stefania. I don't agree with her mostly, but she believes in herself and her people. That is something of worth.

You are quite noteworthy, but Stefanya?

[Stefanya]

Stefan wrote:

<quoted text>
Nada. Your knowledge is gathered from the garbage can.

What biased Canadian Diaspora garbage. He lives in Russia and is related to various groups in Russia. I would bet he knows a lot more about the situation than some loud-mouth in Canada spewing biased garbage.

[uther pendragon]

Robespierre wrote:

<quoted text>
Maybe, but how can you reconcile playing the Ukrainian nationalist whilst being a Canadian citizen? That doesn't make sense!
If you were that interested in Ukraine and its destiny, you would have gone back to the land of your ancestors and play a part in its development, now that the threat that drove your forefathers away is gone.
Instead, you prefer to stay comfortably in Canada, and only use your Ukrainian heritage to give yourself an identity. It's like a trip in memory lane, isn't it, or looking at old postcards.
I am happy not to be possessed by nationalism which is outmoded and divisive.

Without at least three or four generations of Canadian exile can one really appreciate Ukrainian heritage and patriotism?

Those folks in Donetsk or Lviv, what do they know?
Is that not the attitude?

[Stefanya]

Baba Lu wrote:

<quoted text>
Baba Lu replied:
I don't think I will reply to your comments anymore. You write dribble because you cannot disprove anything I have written. My comments make you irate because you know them to be true and you cannot defend against them. Which only shows that what you do try to defend is also based on lies. Do me and yourself a favor. Stay off the Russian and Ukrainian forums. Your input only makes your more educated cohorts look more pathetic than they are.
And on the diaspora issue; we should all thank them for bringing to light the truth about the past. They have always fought to educate the non Eastern Europeans about the disinformation shoveled by the Soviet Union. The truth about the savage Soviet ways. Holodomor, slave labor, death camps just to name a few. And thanks to all the diasporas who in no small measure gave hope to the enslaved Soviet masses and contributed to the Soviet demise. Well maybe not hope to all the Soviet masses. Yah not all of them like the ones that miss the good old days. Like you Stefanya and crew.
And the only former Republic that misses the good old days to some extent is Russia. It was on the top of the food chain in that hell and never felt its language, culture, history and identity would be snuffed. Them's the breaks. They will have to finally fend for themselves for once instead of breaking the backs of their neighbors for the glory.
Oh and maybe some of the backward peoples that were living in the stone age when the Soviets took them over and brought some level of education and civilization into their live are not too happy. Now they don't have such support and are back in the stone age. "What happened to us"?
I hope I didn't bore you too much.
Oh and by the way, I should have mentioned that computers are susceptible to severe damage if exposed to a raving madwoman pounding on it with her fists and being thrown about hither and dither.
Oops, too late. Ask one of your buddies to send you a copy of this reply.
I'll be looking down at you in the afterlife.
Ta Ta

Typical Biased diaspora response. Can't stand the fact that Ukrainians don't all think alike an manY of them "oh HOrrors" do not hate Russians and consider themselves having a similar history and being closely related.

It is not my job to prove all of history to you or anyone else. If the only proof you require is the biased Wikipedia, then go read it and keep your narrow-minded opinions.

HIstory is not a lie, but the biased diaspora version learned at the knee of those who left Eastern Europe for NOrth America, over one hundred years ago is just that, biased history as told by the biased Diaspora. If you actually studied history you would know that. I will stand by the version I know to be true and consider my well-ressearched understanding of history of Eastern Europe a little more rounded than the biased Diaspora DRIVEL, which doesnt' resemble the truth at all. So sorry if it doesn't sit well with your biased and narrow view learned at the knee of the Diaspora.

[Stefanya]

TO baBALOUF

YOu hardly speak for all Ukrainians, especially the ones who have been living in the Ukraine all along. Your narrow views and belligerent attitude towards using your brain and thinking will result in the Balkanization of Ukraine and Russia and make them easy prey for those who are interested only in making money and not about the people of Ukraine or Russia, who are so closely related.

Do yourself a great big favor and just continue to stick your head in the sand and do not pull it out no matter what. You will like it much better in your narrow-minded world which doesn't take true history into consideration.

You must be new to the forum, talking about the famine of 1933-34, as if it is NEWS! News which students of history has learned about long ago, and in recent news the European court has ruled that the 1933-34 famine was not genocide just because the Dispora says so, as it involved several groups of people.

If you are deficient in studying the true history of Eastern Europe then you must get educated and stop pushing the Diaspora party line which is very biased and narrow-minded to say nothing of extreme.

And do not worry yourself about me or my computer or my education of two college degrees, and by all means do not worry about the others who post on this forum and who do not agree with you, as neither they nor I as independent as we are and anonymous to one another on this forum, intend to leave this forum nor neglect the Russian and Ukrainian issues which pop up here as they are vital to those of us who like Russia and Ukraine.

I don't know nor care who nor what you are, but you will not be telling any Ukrainins nor Russians, or even non -Russians who may or may not post on the Russia forum. And if you were not so ignorant, then you would have figured out that many people here are posting on the Russia forum and it is not our fault if some Ukrainian threads are posted on the Russia forum.

However, since you are so nasty about the subject and belligerent enough to think that your stupid remarks will keep people off this forum, then I shall have to actually go to the Ukrainian forum to start objecting to the drivel posted there.