Supreme Mary Wilson reacts to 'Dreamg...

Supreme Mary Wilson reacts to 'Dreamgirls'

There are 106 comments on the Daily Journal story from Dec 23, 2006, titled Supreme Mary Wilson reacts to 'Dreamgirls'. In it, Daily Journal reports that:

Here's a film reviewer who didn't just watch 'Dreamgirls.' She lived it. Big wigs, fancy gowns, torrid romances, groundbreaking triumph, clashing egos and heartbreaking loss.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Daily Journal.

Ric Ricland

“"Same as it ever was..."”

Since: Jan 07

Nashville, TN

#21 Feb 14, 2007
My point is that Diana Ross is deep, far deeper than anything Terell wrote about her. Terell's descriptions were warmed-over cliches strung together for exposition, which is why I didn't take any of them seriously.

Diana Ross is none of that Horatio Alger stuff; she's not simply another rags-to-riches story. Diana Ross is a "mutant" a woman born with no feelings, no compassion for her fellow humans, no capacity to relate at that level.

Diana Ross is also incapable of guilt or any of the other things that make most people victims to peer pressure. When she was at Motown and roundly detested for not doing drugs, drinking, screwing every man she could, this did not bother her. Peer pressure rolled off her back the way rain rolls off a duck's back.

Worse still, when she saw how weak Mary and Flo were she rejected out of hand. Then when the opportunity came to use them for her own betterment she did so without hesitation or remorse.

I got things wrong about Diana because it never occurred to me that her behavior was a display of strength. I saw it as ruthlessness without cause. I could not grasp there was a cause, an incredibly crucial one -- her own survival and spectacular success.

Flo, for all her sweetness, was an accident waiting to happen. Diana realized this. Mary, despite her dog-like obedience, had no back bone. Everyone else at Motown were little more than animals in a zoo in Diana's book; imbeciles who'd ran to the drug pushers en masse each time Berry Gordy threw them some chump change.

If you want a simple lesson from all this, it is this: this is what you have to do if you are to rise from your beginnings. Like Diana, you have to turn your back on where you came from -- your childhood friends, your professional chums, even your family. No half measures; everyone must be kicked out of your life. Everyone must have the door slammed in their face.

Like Jesus, in order to be reborn, you must first die.

ricland
jellyroll

Spout Spring, VA

#22 Feb 14, 2007
Diana is an Aries.........an astrological symbol which is depicted as a Ram butting its way up the mountain.......So were Bette Davis and Joan Crawford..........scary isnt it !!!!!
Kirra

Inglewood, CA

#24 Feb 18, 2007
Ric Ricland wrote:
Did she become a monster? Yes. But becoming a monster was the only way to rise above the BS.

Ms. Ross was able to do all this because behind those huge Alien-like eyes is a brain and soul of a mutant; that is, a woman as heartless and calculating as creatures not seen since the Jurassic period; specifically, raptors.
ricland
WOW ...a heartlessm mutant. Very fitting!

Ric Ricland

“"Same as it ever was..."”

Since: Jan 07

Goodlettsville, TN

#25 Feb 19, 2007
Reluctantly, I've since come to admire Ms. Ross, something I thought I've never be able to do. I find this amazing that after all these years of hating her in the space of a week I've undergone this complete reversal.
...
Now when I think of Ms. Ross I know she became what she became because it was the only way to survive Motown.
...
For example, at Motown the idea was to pass the girls around then dump them. Another pastime was to introduce newcomers to the party life. The result is that everyone who went through Motown -- with the exception of Ross and Gordy -- crashed and burned.
...
Everyone!
...
In other words, you can't look at what Diana was without looking at what Motown was and then when you look at what Motown was, you understand why she had to become what she became, either that or wind up a Florence Ballard.
...
ricland
Juan

Lutz, FL

#26 Feb 19, 2007
You're an extremely bitter, racist, person. You do not know Diana Ross and have no right to speak about her like that. It seems that you're biggest issues that lie beneath all of this is the fact that she dated or married white men. That is none of your business or anyone elses. She can love whoever she wants, just like it's noone elses business who you choose. It's obvious what a beautiful person Diana is when you see how much her children love her.

Ric Ricland

“"Same as it ever was..."”

Since: Jan 07

Goodlettsville, TN

#27 Feb 20, 2007
Juan wrote:
You're an extremely bitter, racist, person. You do not know Diana Ross and have no right to speak about her like that. It seems that you're biggest issues that lie beneath all of this is the fact that she dated or married white men. That is none of your business or anyone else's. She can love whoever she wants, just like it's noone elses business who you choose. It's obvious what a beautiful person Diana is when you see how much her children love her.
I usually ignore extreme ignorance like like yours, Juan, but this thread is slow so I'll indulge you.

First, your problem is reading comprehension. The ideas I presented in my post were too complex for you to understand so you manufactured an idea you could get your head around -- that I'm a Diana hater.

This done, you went on to assemble reasons why Diana should be loved not hated. Mind you, the idea of "hate" is a figment of your own simplistic throught process.

So, having convinced yourself that the issue here is simply one of hate, you went on to show why Diana should be hated -- namely, her kids love her.

What more needs to be said? Anyone who would use the argument that a person's kids or dog or hamster loves them, ergo, they are not hateful, is an imbecile who should be humored (as I do here) not taken seriously.

ricland
KnowsBetter

Bridgeport, OH

#28 Feb 22, 2007
Ric is so full of crap that it's laughable and a bit scary too! Ric you're cracking me up, dude. Aren't you being just a tad bit(sarcasm) dramatic? Diana Ross the Raptor. Diana Ross the Mutant.- LOL- Diana Ross the Blood Thirsty Lioness eating alive the poor widdle cubs Mary and Florence.- LOL.- This is too childish for words. A far better metaphor would be Diana Ross The Force of Nature - Diana Ross The Tornado Comming Through At Top Speed With A Definite Focus On The Plateau Upon Which She Absolutley Will Set So You'd Better Watch Yourself Because She's Comming Through Whether You Like It Or Not! I'm sure she's sorry that folks got lost or hurt in the aftermath but then again they shouldn't have ever tried to stop her for their jealousy only fed the momentum. Berry Gordy said, and I quote: "Diana wanted to be a super star from the time I met her and that's what she was going to be and she was willing to pay the price and willing to sacrifice. Diana Ross was the agressive one, the personality one of the group and Diana Ross WAS THE KEY to the Supremes."

Now lets all gather and sing "Abraham, Martin, and John"

Ric Ricland

“"Same as it ever was..."”

Since: Jan 07

Goodlettsville, TN

#29 Feb 22, 2007
The "key" to the Supremes was Hollad-Dozier-Holland and the musicians; that is, the songwriters and the music. But of all these people, Ms. Ross is the one person who didn't sue him, so Gordy places all the credit for the success of the Supremes on shoulders.

Typical Berry Gordy spin.

Had Diana been replaced by any of the girls at Motown, the "Supremes" still would have sold millions of records.

ricland
KnowsBetter

Bridgeport, OH

#30 Feb 23, 2007
LOL - I continue to engage you in your idiocy simply because with each attempt you make to render the final word, you become all the more absurd and ridiculous.

Gordy was quite adamant about what he said concerning Diana Ross' role in the Supremes. In fact, he stated it with great conviction - you can see it in the television special "Motown 40." Now you dare question and attempt to make insignificant the authority of the one person who was there right from the very beginning when the Supremes were just teenagers - Berry Gordy. The nerve.

It is a given that Holland-Dozier-Holland wrote and produced a catalogue of songs incomparable in their day and still relevent in contemporary times. To quote Aretha Franklin, "They were the Irving Berlins of our time." However, that fact in no way diminishes the Ross star power or her very distinct, unique, and highly charismatic vocal sound. The records did not sell themselves, SHE and HER VOICE sold them. Madonna's first hit single "Holiday" was offered to Mary Wilson beforehand (according to Mary Wilson, anyway)and I dare venture to say that had Wilson recorded it instead, it most likely would have landed in the can with anything else she recorded.

I agree with Berry Gordy whole heartedly as would all Diana Ross fans as would a good many non fans AS DO ALL MUSIC HISTORIANS by agreeing with him that "Diana Ross WAS THE KEY to the Supremes"

Next?
KnowsBetter

Bridgeport, OH

#31 Feb 23, 2007
Oh yeah, Ric - an after thought in response to one of your most recent claims I failed to address. Diana Ross WAS replaced in the Supremes by Jean Terrell and NOOOOOOOO - they DIDN'T go on to sell millions and millions of records.

I think you need to take a rest from this. You're getting veeeeery, veeeeery sleeeepy......

Ric Ricland

“"Same as it ever was..."”

Since: Jan 07

Goodlettsville, TN

#32 Feb 23, 2007
I dont question the "authority" of Gordy and I'm sure you're the only one confused on the point. As I wrote plainly enough, it's Gordy's motivation I call into question.

Gordy was sued by Holland-Dozier-Holland. He was sued by the musicians who played HDH's music. He didn't give HDH full credit in court so why would you expect him to do so now?

Furthermore, the notion that Diana Ross "made" the Supremes is simply bizarre.

Sure, Ross was lead singer and had a distinct voice, but the genius of the Supremes was the lyrics and music, not Ross's voice -- a voice, I might add, universally regarded as one of the weakest at Motown.

In fact, the decision to make her lead singer over Florence -- and even Mary -- was done because Gordy thought Florence was too big boned and thick nosed, not because Diana had the better voice.

Does Diana's subsequent success prove she had the better voice? In your dull-witted way of deducing things, perhaps, but that doesn't make it so.

Would the Supremes have had their hits without Diana Ross? Why not? The Supremes sold millions of records before Gordy began promoting Ross. The music and lyrics were just so incredibly infectous.

In addition, the history of girl groups going back to the Andrew Sisters and beyond is a history of fans identyfying with the group, not the individial members. America thought of them as the Supremes, not "Diana Ross and the Supremes." Moreover, America was none too keen when Gordy renamed them that.

And by the way, "sister" girl groups traditionally have had ten and 20 year runs; that is, groups where each member gets the same billing. Something to think about.

Diana Ross was not a Smokey Robinson. While with the Supremes she was not a lead singer of that magnitude. She did not define the group. Had she left she would have been easily replaced without the slightest hit in sales.

Bottom line, not satisfied with stealing everyone's money, Gordy now steals their legacy.

ricland
Terell Lasane

Great Mills, MD

#33 Feb 23, 2007
Knows better--

If your name accurately describes you, know that there is no ending this. I will admit that I am devilishly amused by reading these posts. It's like a science fiction soap opera online.

See my post from the other thread to get more insight into my warning.
KnowsBetter

Bridgeport, OH

#34 Feb 23, 2007
Once again, Ricland, your ignorance knows no bounds. The absurdities keep mounting one upon the other. Ok, here we go.....

Gordy has no motiviation other than to present the facts as they are evident to him now as they were evident to him from the very begining. It really is that simple as it is most definately a simple issue. There are no conspiratorial undertones in his assessment. He is only telling it as he sees it. One only need read one of your bs posts to know YOUR motivation.

Ross' voice being considered "weak" is a fallacy. The records sales speak for themselves. All recording artists need good marterial but the artist still must breath life into the lyric. It was HDH who first made the decision that Diana take all leads after the success of their first number one record "Where Did Our Love Go?" Prior to that occurrence they were known by all at Motown as the "No Hit Supremes" - to say that the Supremes sold millions of records before Ross was deemed lead is a flat out lie - no way around it, pal - it's a lie. Flo Ballard had a loud voice - she could carry a tune, but then so can I and alot of people for that matter. What she did NOT have is that rare star quality with a voice to match it. Diana, however, most certainly did. FACT, just a fact man. I wonder what Aretha Franklin thinks when hearing Mary Wilson reciting her line of bs artistry insisting with a straight face that Flo's voice was comparable to Aretha's. One can only imagine, LOL. Diana Ross and The Supremes went onto greater heights after the dismissal of Florence Ballard. Her absense had no negative result on the grand annalysis. You clearly have no idea of just how large they had become by that time. If we think of the entertainment industry as a large and very successful law firm, then it is spot on to say that Diana Ross and The Supremes made partner.

LOL - as if you couldnt sound more ridiculous you have the gall to say Diana Ross was not in the same stratosphere as Smokey Robinson as a lead singer. Idiot! I grow in exasperation with your insolence, sir. She surpassed Smokey and everyone else at Motown as a singer. Whether or not anyone thinks she was a great singer is irrelevant - she surpassed all her peers. "Diana Ross is a super star of the very first magnitude" - Clive Davis. Diana is testament to the fact that one does not necessarily need the big voice, the wailing and riffing to be effective. Her interpretation of lyric and emotion has always been straight on from the beginning. When she sings a song, she tells it's truth.

Of course you're entitled to your own opinions. However, when your OPINIONS are cross referenced with the FACTS they simply don't have a leg to stand upon.

Might I suggest you take the time to familiarize yourself with those facts before we continue this discussion? You have the world at your finger tips. Read a few books written by authors who had no connection to Motown. Gerald Posner and Nelson George offer unbiased reporting of the FACTS.

Ric Ricland

“"Same as it ever was..."”

Since: Jan 07

Goodlettsville, TN

#35 Feb 23, 2007
Technically, the Supremes did sell "millions" of records before Ross was made lead. "Lovelight" charted No.23 on Billboard which was a full year before "Where did Our Love Go."

However, I'll admit I overstated myself. But according to Wikepedia, Gordy made Diana Ross lead because he thought her voice would cross-over better -- not because he thought hers was the better voice.

In other words, by black standards, Diana Ross's voice was weak. She simply was no match for singers like Mary Wells, Martha Reeves, even Florence Ballard, as I've said.

And your claim that Ross surpassed Smokey Robinson again illustrates your manifold reading comprehension problems.

The point made was that Smokey in his prime was a singing virtuoso; that is, a person who possesses outstanding voice or musical ability. Ross never possessed outstanding voice or musical ability.

Learn the difference between a performer who's a singing/musical virtuoso and a performer who's a great entertainer. After this, learn how to read for content.

For example, the quote you included:

"Diana Ross is a super star of the very first magnitude" -- Clive Davis

is not the same thing as Clive Davis saying "Ross is a singing virtuoso."

There's a difference, a difference that requires reading skill sets we must now conclude are far in excess of the community college it appears you attended.

Your other comments are built on this same cognitive dissonance so I'll not bore everyone to tears addressing them.

ricland

Ric Ricland

“"Same as it ever was..."”

Since: Jan 07

Goodlettsville, TN

#36 Feb 24, 2007
The issues here should be plain enough for all, but in case they aren't, let me help you.

Diana Ross groupies like Terell and KnowsBetter would have you believe that Miss Ross is not only perfection, but that she has always been perfection, even going back to her early days with the Supremes.

The second myth they promote is that Florence Ballard was an out-of-control bum who brought all her misfortune upon herself.

The third myth they promote is that Miss Ross tried to help her but Florence was too hopeless and ignorant to accept this help.

The fourth myth they promote is that Miss Ross is "the Goddess of Love" a woman who has dedicated her life to making the world a better place.

Taking the last myth first, Miss Ross will never be confused with Miss Oprah Winfrey or for that matter even Tyra Banks. Two traits distinguish Miss Ross from almost every celebrity we know of: extreme selfishness and extreme uninvolvement with anything outside her career and family.

regarding the third myth, once she became lead singer, Miss Ross did everything in her power -- including sleeping with Berry Gordy while he was still married -- to make the group "Diana Ross and the Supremes" and this is the very thing that drove Florence crazy.

Florence thought what Miss Ross was doing was wrong and unfair. Florence thought Miss Ross was killing the Supremes in order to promote her own solo career.

Florence was correct.

Because of Miss Ross' selfish self-promotion the group died.

Florence and Mary Wilson were not bums. The Supremes could have gone on to bigger and better things. Other girl groups like The Andrew Sisters and The Mcguire Sisters had runs that lasted 20 and 30 years.

Finally, some mention should be made about stardom and divas. Stars are not perfect people, most in fact are deeply flawed. They get married six and seven times, they have substance abuse problems, they kill people, they hurt the ones they love; and, most characteristically, they use people.

In other words, when we say Diana Ross is the greatest "star" of our time(which she is) we are not automatically saying she is the greatest human being of our time.

ricland
KnowsBetter

Bridgeport, OH

#37 Feb 24, 2007
Thank God that each post speaks for itself.
KnowsBetter

Bridgeport, OH

#38 Feb 24, 2007
Hey folkz - I just saw something online about a Motown Story mini series being planned for 2009 by Berry Gordy and Suzanne dePasse. Anyone heard anything of this? This was mentioned prior to the announcement of Gordy flexing some Motown muscle at the producers of "Dream Girls" Heres the article:

Lawsuit
Posted On: 2/22/07 at 04:59 PM

It's a shame the bloom has really started to fall off the rose. While I did enjoy the movie, I though the beefing up of the Supremes parallels was a little much. Apparently I'm not the only one.

'Dreamgirls' Avoids Motown Lawsuit

The producers of “Dreamgirls” and Paramount Pictures/DreamWorks avoided a lawsuit from Motown founder Berry Gordy Jr. yesterday.

The companies ran full-page ads in Variety and The Hollywood Reporter in which they apologized to Gordy for suggesting that “Dreamgirls” was the Motown story or that the corrupt record company president in the movie played by Jamie Foxx in any way resembled Gordy.

I’m told the ads were the result of a long negotiation on both sides, and that Gordy was prepared to take the players on.

“The breaking point was a ‘Dreamgirls’ book that showed first Curtis and the Dreams from the movie, and then flip the page and it was Berry and the Supremes. The suggestion was that he was one in the same,” a source revealed.

The source continued:“And it’s not the Motown story. Berry had more than just a girl group and a standalone singer [the Eddie Murphy character]. Motown is much more than that.”

The Motown story, as told by Gordy, will come to NBC in 2009 as a 12-part miniseries produced by Suzanne dePasse, Gordy’s longtime production associate. DePasse — with an extensive list of impressive credits — also produced the award-winning miniseries about the Temptations, one of the many Motown hit groups.
Juan

United States

#39 Feb 24, 2007
Ric Ricland wrote:
The issues here should be plain enough for all, but in case they aren't, let me help you.
Diana Ross groupies like Terell and KnowsBetter would have you believe that Miss Ross is not only perfection, but that she has always been perfection, even going back to her early days with the Supremes.
The second myth they promote is that Florence Ballard was an out-of-control bum who brought all her misfortune upon herself.
The third myth they promote is that Miss Ross tried to help her but Florence was too hopeless and ignorant to accept this help.
The fourth myth they promote is that Miss Ross is "the Goddess of Love" a woman who has dedicated her life to making the world a better place.
Taking the last myth first, Miss Ross will never be confused with Miss Oprah Winfrey or for that matter even Tyra Banks. Two traits distinguish Miss Ross from almost every celebrity we know of: extreme selfishness and extreme uninvolvement with anything outside her career and family.
regarding the third myth, once she became lead singer, Miss Ross did everything in her power -- including sleeping with Berry Gordy while he was still married -- to make the group "Diana Ross and the Supremes" and this is the very thing that drove Florence crazy.
Florence thought what Miss Ross was doing was wrong and unfair. Florence thought Miss Ross was killing the Supremes in order to promote her own solo career.
Florence was correct.
Because of Miss Ross' selfish self-promotion the group died.
Florence and Mary Wilson were not bums. The Supremes could have gone on to bigger and better things. Other girl groups like The Andrew Sisters and The Mcguire Sisters had runs that lasted 20 and 30 years.
Finally, some mention should be made about stardom and divas. Stars are not perfect people, most in fact are deeply flawed. They get married six and seven times, they have substance abuse problems, they kill people, they hurt the ones they love; and, most characteristically, they use people.
In other words, when we say Diana Ross is the greatest "star" of our time(which she is) we are not automatically saying she is the greatest human being of our time.
ricland
You continue to display your ignorance with every post. I won't even respond you're far too ignorant and hateful. I'm sure you're a big loser yourself and you blame everyone but yourself for that happening just like Flo and Mary did.

Ric Ricland

“"Same as it ever was..."”

Since: Jan 07

Goodlettsville, TN

#40 Feb 24, 2007
Florence Ballard had a simple code of right and wrong that she lived by. It was based on treating people fairly. When Ross and Gordy took this proud young woman and tried to turn her into a flunky she rebelled.

For example, after Dinah Ross was made lead, Florence and Mary Wilson were ordered to never speak in public, to let Miss Ross do all the talking. Mary Wilson could deal with it, Florence Ballard simply couldn't.

Look at the tapes of Florence and you see a young woman of a wonderful natural dignity and warmth. Look at the way she uses her hands and body, compare it to the catalog of artificial personas Ross goes through --Dietrich, Harlow, Crawford, Marylyn Monroe, for Pete's sake.

That's what we're talking about here: killing off a sweet natural girl in place of a selfish, artificial one.

The "Mother of Love" mythology gay men have built around Miss Ross is self-serving illusion. They idolize Miss Ross because she's artificial, because she's the anti-black woman -- thin, breastless, hipless -- because she's "camp"; and mostly, because she has the heart of a reptile.

Their adoration of Miss Ross runs no deeper than that. Indeed, her vile treatment of Florence and Mary Wilson gives them unalloyed joy because to them it's an affirmation that real femininity is about paint, big wigs, artificiality, not sweet, gentle, loving, feminine, natural.

Does Ross have a better voice than Aretha Franklin? Why then do gays idolize Miss Ross but ignore Aretha?

Which in part explains why the heterosexual black community doesn't do divas. We don't like Dina Ross, Naomi Campbell, Barbara Striestand. We like Queen Lateefa, Aretha Franklin, Mary Wells.

We like our queens with big hips and big hearts just like Florence Ballard.

ricland
Black Beauty

New York, NY

#41 Feb 24, 2007
Ric Ricland wrote:
Florence Ballard had a simple code of right and wrong that she lived by. It was based on treating people fairly. When Ross and Gordy took this proud young woman and tried to turn her into a flunky she rebelled.
For example, after Dinah Ross was made lead, Florence and Mary Wilson were ordered to never speak in public, to let Miss Ross do all the talking. Mary Wilson could deal with it, Florence Ballard simply couldn't.
Look at the tapes of Florence and you see a young woman of a wonderful natural dignity and warmth. Look at the way she uses her hands and body, compare it to the catalog of artificial personas Ross goes through --Dietrich, Harlow, Crawford, Marylyn Monroe, for Pete's sake.
That's what we're talking about here: killing off a sweet natural girl in place of a selfish, artificial one.
The "Mother of Love" mythology gay men have built around Miss Ross is self-serving illusion. They idolize Miss Ross because she's artificial, because she's the anti-black woman -- thin, breastless, hipless -- because she's "camp"; and mostly, because she has the heart of a reptile.
Their adoration of Miss Ross runs no deeper than that. Indeed, her vile treatment of Florence and Mary Wilson gives them unalloyed joy because to them it's an affirmation that real femininity is about paint, big wigs, artificiality, not sweet, gentle, loving, feminine, natural.
Does Ross have a better voice than Aretha Franklin? Why then do gays idolize Miss Ross but ignore Aretha?
Which in part explains why the heterosexual black community doesn't do divas. We don't like Dina Ross, Naomi Campbell, Barbara Striestand. We like Queen Lateefa, Aretha Franklin, Mary Wells.
We like our queens with big hips and big hearts just like Florence Ballard.
ricland
I can dig it.

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