Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News 542,873
The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. Full Story
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#479717 Oct 2, 2013
Isaiah 7:16

16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Mark 9:42

42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.

Stumble....

skandalizō...

to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend

to entice to sin

to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey

to cause to fall away

to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority

to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another

since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed

to cause one displeasure at a thing

to make indignant

to be displeased, indignant
Pad

Rockford, IL

#479718 Oct 2, 2013
RoSesz wrote:
<quoted text>
Amen
He,Uses,US,all..in His,will...he has,for centuries used non Catholics .
Even those,disciples,spreading His,word in the,Alps.....simply as,the,disciples taught them...
In the,Reformation ..in Early American settlers,growing their Children in Christ ..
Priests, ministers,missionaries,..lay people .
Anywhere,..spreading God's,teaching ...as we,were instructed by the,GREAT COMMISSION.
And that is because HE SEES yielded vessels who are willing to first LOVE HIM,and to humble themselves before H I M! The name of the affiliation means really nothing when God decides to work through an individual.

Hudson Taylor was a dynamic missionary to China,his name was a by-word even in China as well amongst western missionaries.But he started out with a Methodist missionary organization,that was quite wealthy and had good credentials in preparing individuals for the Mission Field. Hudson went to Hong Kong with that group,and they had all the right stuff to help him launch out to the Chinese. His endeavors to go came to an abrupt halt as he was alone in a village deep in China's interior.He could speak the language,he was even a Medical doctor,but the Chinese did not trust him,and few would open their doors to him.

He prayed earnestly and went through somewhat a depression over the fact that he had to rely on the Methodists to help him to basically survive,while not reaching the people at all.However when he prayed,he did receive a word from the Lord,while reading the Word"Change your garments". That hit him like a bolt,he listened and made it a point to change what he was wearing,he found clothes from Chinese tailors that were suited to him,and his whole ministry changed basically over night.Later his wife did the same,and she even went on treks to gatherings of women where she was well received because first of all she adopted their dress,spoke the language,and loved them.

Hudson Taylor and his wife became so successful in spreading the gospel in China,that the Missions decided to consider strongly how they would present foreign missionaries to Asia as a whole,including India. Mother Teresa of Calcutta wisely adopted the sari as the design of the habit worn by her sisters of Charity in India,that made all the difference,along with her ardent love for the Lord Jesus Christ.
truth

Perth, Australia

#479719 Oct 2, 2013
+++++++
+INRI + INRI + INRI + INRI + INRI + INRI+ INRI
+++INRI+++INRI+++INRI+++INRI++ +INRI+++INRI+++
++++++++++
++++++++++
++++++++++
++++++++++

“Let the Children”

Since: Aug 08

Come To Me

#479720 Oct 2, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
PROPOSITION: Is Christian Baptism sacramental and regenerational or is it merely a symbol?
FACT: The vast majority of Christians (i.e. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) believe that Baptism is regenerational -- that is to say, that the Sacrament itself transforms the person by "water and the Word," (cf. Eph 5:26) thus adopting that person into the Body of Christ and making that person a participant in the very same Sonship which Christ Himself enjoys with the Father (Romans 8:15-17, Galatians 4:6-7).
FACT: From earliest times, literally every Church Father and Christian bishop, as well as every orthodox Christian scholar until the Protestant reformation, understood Baptism as regenerational. This included Martin Luther and most of the Protestant reformers who followed him.
FACT: Yet, despite this, there are several Christian groups which deny that Baptism is regenerational, holding instead that it is merely an outward sign or symbol of one's inner faith in Christ. In this, they maintain that it is one's personal acceptance of Christ that matters; and that Baptism is no more than a ceremony in which one publicly proclaims and displays one's faith. Indeed, these same Christian groups believe that the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration is a corruption of what the Apostles preached, reducing the significance of this supposedly "symbolic ceremony" to the level of "magic" or "superstition." In this, they hold that only personal faith in Christ is of any importance and that "sprinkling water on someone's head" does absolutely nothing in and of itself.
Yet, can this position be correct? Well, to see, let's turn to the Scriptures themselves.
First of all, it must be said that there are many verses of Scripture which give the proponents of "symbolic Baptism" a great deal of trouble. These include:
1 Peter 3:21-22 --- "This prefigured Baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a clear conscious, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ ..."
Acts 2:38 -- "Peter said to them,'Repent and be Baptized, every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' "
Mark 16:16 -- "Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned."
So, aside from one's personal faith, the act of Baptism itself appears to be very important indeed. Those who hold that Baptism is merely symbolic cannot ignore this if they wish to take Scripture seriously.
cont.
Look your Church will always,believe,in BABY baptism ..some non Catholics. Do or,dedicate, baptizing after FAITH iS,professed

All of us,believe one,MUST have PERSONAL FAITH ..I'm assuming .
You outside Emphasis,on your Church and sacraments,.
Non Catholics,on THE,WORD .

NEITHER ONE IS,LIKELY to change any time ..ever .

If a,person is,try o submitted to the,Spirit accepting Jesus,as Lord And,Saviour . HIS,SACRIFICE ..HIS,BLOOD as,what as,paid
the Sin price ( though from this forum it's,unclear if you people believe it was JESUS. the Perfect Sacrifice alone that can ATONE can

In God's Holy ,,Justice ))

Anyway ..God uses,hear,believers,as,He wishes ..He Has,He will ..

CATHOLic ..non.CATHOLUC ..we have the SAME commission .

You all just put MORE strings, on how the unbeliever must profess,Faith in Christ

We are USED BY HIM...have been for centuries,...regardless,of you guys,who may think you are he only ONES,who are,..it us clearly not true ..ask the persecuted in the,Sudan...in China,..eh o have nothing but a home CHURCH. And underground Church..no priests,..if they are,unsaved in their belief in their Saviour ...so much they could due for it ..

God bless,all those who follow he,Commission



No on,

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#479722 Oct 2, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>Would if a hundred priests and bishops in your community as an Orthodox believed a vision expounded by one particular priest,and there arose a large division in your church over the vision,what tradition would your priests turn to,in order to confirm or discredit the vision as being from God? Surely they would turn to the Scriptures along the way? What final word does the Scriptures hold as to the truth or accuracy of what any of us believe concerning Christ,and all that pertains to Him?
So you believe that the priests or hierarchy of the Orthodox church alone have the right to determine what is the truth of Christ?
==========

Scriptures always come first- over tradition, over any other source
We do not believe 100 priests, Patriarchs when they contradict Scripture.

The Orthodox have fought off more than 100 priests in the past. Using Scripture.
The soul of Holy Orthodoxy is prayer, and it is also Holy Scripture since the Christian Church is a Scriptural Church.

Orthodox Christians when reading Holy Scripture, accept the guidance of the Church. Many sayings in the Bible which by themselves not clear.

The individual reader, however sincere, is in danger of error if he trusts only his own personal interpretations.

Therefore who helps us in understanding Holy Scripture and who guides us?

First the Holy Spirit and secondly Tradition and the Holy Fathers over the many centuries which have helped with the interpretations of the Bible.

The Fathers can err.

The only Fathers' writings that are accepted are those backed by Scripture. The Fathers quote very very extensively from Scripture to back their statements.
Anthony MN

Champlin, MN

#479723 Oct 2, 2013
RoSesz wrote:
<quoted text>
Look your Church will always,believe,in BABY baptism ..some non Catholics. Do or,dedicate, baptizing after FAITH iS,professed
All of us,believe one,MUST have PERSONAL FAITH ..I'm assuming .
You outside Emphasis,on your Church and sacraments,.
Non Catholics,on THE,WORD .
NEITHER ONE IS,LIKELY to change any time ..ever .
If a,person is,try o submitted to the,Spirit accepting Jesus,as Lord And,Saviour . HIS,SACRIFICE ..HIS,BLOOD as,what as,paid
the Sin price ( though from this forum it's,unclear if you people believe it was JESUS. the Perfect Sacrifice alone that can ATONE can
In God's Holy ,,Justice ))
Anyway ..God uses,hear,believers,as,He wishes ..He Has,He will ..
CATHOLic ..non.CATHOLUC ..we have the SAME commission .
You all just put MORE strings, on how the unbeliever must profess,Faith in Christ
We are USED BY HIM...have been for centuries,...regardless,of you guys,who may think you are he only ONES,who are,..it us clearly not true ..ask the persecuted in the,Sudan...in China,..eh o have nothing but a home CHURCH. And underground Church..no priests,..if they are,unsaved in their belief in their Saviour ...so much they could due for it ..
God bless,all those who follow he,Commission
No on,
Is baptism just a symbolic gesture of obedience to you or do you believe it actually does something?

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#479724 Oct 2, 2013
Oxbow wrote:
<quoted text>
You are welcome to follow your meology...I will follow the Word of God:
Christians do not seek the guidance of Christ...no need...we rely on, accept, and live by His promise:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Evidently you don't live by His Word....
Christ IS THE WORD. The Word lives. It lives behind you , in you, and in front of you, AND in Scriptures. I thought that is in your Bible somewhere???Christ is among us. He is and always will be.
Pad

Rockford, IL

#479725 Oct 2, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
That would make sense only if you reject the fact that baptism remits sin, regenerates, infuses one with the Holy Spirit and that it's nothing more than a symbolic gesture of obedience.
A symbolic traditional gesture of obedience eventually is a cheap shot at what baptism really is Anthony. Now your tradition claims that infant baptism regenerates and removes sin.Although I understand that in the human reasoning of things,and I can understand the prot concept as you stated which eventually boils down to tradition and rote practice as well.All human concepts of what was instituted by our Lord.

Baptism represents Christ's burial,and resurrection.And in the light of that is true baptism.The soul that repents first receives cleansing from the very foot of the Cross,and the shed Blood of our Lord Jesus,Baptism is the burial of that believer with Christ,and when he or she comes out of the Water of regeneration,they are resurrected unto the New Life in Christ.

That is Baptism,it is Christ,Christ and more of Him,which includes the limitless sphere of His changing grace toward us as believers who come to Him by faith,Repent of our sins,and proceed into the waters of Baptism to fulfill what Christ has done in us.

Human reasoning,and cheap practices do not explain the eternal significance of Baptism,Paul did,and we do every time one repents and is baptized for the remission of sins.

You can say that our Communion is some symbolic practice that completely gives us nothing at all,because you believe in Transubstantiation.

The truth is,The very memorial of His Holy and very significant D E A T H supersedes any human reasoning as to what is done to practice Holy Communion.Some of the most profound and very spiritual awakenings in the non-Catholic communities have been at the Communion Table.It is about what Christ suffered and died,and the spiritual awareness of that fact is limitless in comparison to our very limited framework of reference on any subject for that matter.Christ can of the most simple of elements awaken in His followers the deepest of spiritual essence. Our communion services could be rote,and so can yours,but when the Spirit of the LORD is present,He gives life to anything that He chooses to give life to.The dry bones in Ezekiel were given life by the LORD,and look what happened,He raised an army.

Anthony it is not about our C h u r c h practice,or even about whether we so believe it is doctrine and truth,it is about Him WHO gives to us undeserving sinners who have entered into the GATE of Him who purchased us with His own Blood. He makes the difference,and as you have heard more recently an expression well said,"It is not about us,it is about Him." Cheap communion is about us,but Holy Communion is about Him.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#479726 Oct 2, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>I did read what the Pope said about the obsessing over homosexuality and even abortion.What the pope failed to include,although he had some very good points,was that it is the DUTY of the Body of Christ to raise a standard against sin.That of course can be overdone,and wrongfully applied as well.
We have to be careful how we stand up against certain issues.But the statement"Be instant in season and out of season" also causes us to realize we do have a responsibility to speak out against the "giants" that encroach upon the whole society.
Homosexuality is a "giant" in our lifetime today.There is not one new show aired on TV that does not bring out a homosexual relationship. The world is doing this,so I am not saying they should not,because what the world does is already condemned in the Scriptures.But the believers have to be ready to take a stand which defends the daily life of each and everyone of us.Will the"giant" stop to just declare his or her own right to exist?We may all agree for the personal rights of individuals to exist,have a job they want without persecution,eat where they want to. But when they want to enter the classroom and demand that their lifestyle be promoted and taught to the very young,I believe we have the right to protest.
Same-sex marriage is a given,why? Well the world is biting at the bit to have it,the media is flaunting it continually,so it is soon to be the law of most countries to allow for such.But that does not mean the Body of Christ has to marry such individuals,nor go out of their way to accept the so called"sanctity of those unions".
Those Protestant groups or former Reformer churches who are promoting same-sex marriages by secretly marrying couples in states that have not passed the resolutions yet,are anathema to the Body of Christ.They have long gone their own way,to bring a curse upon their own heads.The reason why the reformer churches that have sold their souls to the devil,are doing these things,is because they are skeletons,no life,dead churches that glorify Man rather than God.They even mock God in their services.And they are empty for the most part,homosexual couples will bring more bodies,and children into their dead mausoleums.Their practices are so immersed in curses,that they are unaware that they are "ICHABOD" Which means:The glory of God has left us.
Ok so we can love homosexuals and be respectful to them,and that is without saying,as most believers are more than willing to love and respect others for the glory of Christ.But we do not have to run out of our way to make their path to receiving the curse of their own actions smoother,glossed over,comfortable.We are salt and light,and that requires pain and discomfort.
I eat lunch with a homosexual every day at work,there are times he wanted no doubt to throw me out of the room.It has not been easy for him to eat with me.But he wants me there for some reason!
The Church, to be consistent, must be clear on issues that have become grey areas in the secular world- such as homosexuality, gay marriage etc. I agree 100% I also look at the individual. If a gay man was in spiritual counseling to gain the spirituality to control his sin would condone his using a condom as long as he continued in this battle.If I did not he may get disease and die before he has a chance of salvation.
Pad

Rockford, IL

#479728 Oct 2, 2013
truth wrote:
+++++++
+INRI + INRI + INRI + INRI + INRI + INRI+ INRI
+++INRI+++INRI+++INRI+++INRI++ +INRI+++INRI+++
++++++++++
++++++++++
++++++++++
++++++++++
And to know Him is to know the King of both the Jews and the Gentiles.
Clay

United States

#479729 Oct 2, 2013
Chuck wrote:
<quoted text>
What's the difference?? An infant born again at baptism without the faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Only makes sense to a catholic Clay.
I know what you're sayin, Chuck. I do. But Christ set the Church up with the attention that two adults already Baptized into the Church, would bring forth their child to also be baptized into the Church, just like two Jewish parents bring forth the child to be circumcised. And the fact is, you can not show one single verse that says infants are NOT TO BE BAPTIZED. All of Christianity and the first couple waves of Protestantism did this.
I honestly believe its the will of the devil to prevent parents from bringing forth their baby for Baptism. That's why your new take on Baptism is, well....new. It wasn't taught in Christendom for 1800 yrs.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#479730 Oct 2, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
<quoted text>Christ IS THE WORD. The Word lives. It lives behind you , in you, and in front of you, AND in Scriptures. I thought that is in your Bible somewhere???Christ is among us. He is and always will be.
Did I say Christ is not the Word? Did I say the Word is dead?? Did I say Christ is not among us. Did I say He would not always be??

Save face:
When one realizes their blunder and uses a tactic to try & cover up their mistake. Whether it works or not is to be determined by the situation.

You need to work on that....you have much room to improve!!!!

Concerned in Brasil

Aberdeen, UK

#479731 Oct 2, 2013
Clay wrote:
Its important, Chuck and Preston, that you realize you're not an authority on Baptism. If the Lord left it up to you guys to decipher Bible verses to figure out His will, then Christianity is a joke anyway.
Infant Baptism is being born again. This doesn't mean that the infant can't grow up and reject the Lord just as countless evangelicals have, after they did their alter call and became 'born again' as adults. Jesus said we need to endure to the end.
The Jews circumcise children and we Baptize children. Baptism is the new circumcision.
Later, when the Catholic child is at an age of maturity, they can choose to affirm the Baptismal vows their parents made when they brought them into the Church. This is called the Sacrament of Confirmation. But even then, this is no guarantee of salvation, because God doesn't remove our free will. We can reject Him til we take our last breath.
Again, you have no authority to decide on the matter. You would have no clue about any of those Bible verses if it weren't for the Church who compiled it, safeguarded it, hand copied and finally published the Bible in 1452- bringing it to the night stands of the laity for the first time in human history.
You're nuts if you think your method is the way Our Lord willed for the revelation of Baptism to be conveyed to us. Nuts!
Its important you know you don't have the authority to decided who has the authority to decide.

If we give the authority to the RCC we get unbiblical doctrine upon unbiblical doctrine to the point the RCC literal formed a priesthood specifically to carry torture and murder and the end game is some 20 million souls murder conservatively in some 500 years all in the name of Man made tradition so they could keep control and keep the Taxes rolling on into Rome for debauchery drunkenness on and On ON it went.

When the RCC has the authority we get Papal armies sacking Christian cities with the Pope giving the armies absolution before they attack to rape pillage and destroy.

The last person on earth to judge who has the authority to rightly divide the word of God is a Roman Catholic Zealot who believes in Man made Tradition that over rules the plain teachings of the Bible.

IT IS Finished Jesus declared in the inerrant word of God, for true Christians that is but for the RC the sacrifices that are an abomination before Jesus himself go on weekly.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#479732 Oct 2, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
<quoted text>==========
Scriptures always come first- over tradition, over any other source
We do not believe 100 priests, Patriarchs when they contradict Scripture.
The Orthodox have fought off more than 100 priests in the past. Using Scripture.
The soul of Holy Orthodoxy is prayer, and it is also Holy Scripture since the Christian Church is a Scriptural Church.
Orthodox Christians when reading Holy Scripture, accept the guidance of the Church. Many sayings in the Bible which by themselves not clear.
The individual reader, however sincere, is in danger of error if he trusts only his own personal interpretations.
Therefore who helps us in understanding Holy Scripture and who guides us?
First the Holy Spirit and secondly Tradition and the Holy Fathers over the many centuries which have helped with the interpretations of the Bible.
The Fathers can err.
The only Fathers' writings that are accepted are those backed by Scripture. The Fathers quote very very extensively from Scripture to back their statements.
"Therefore who helps us in understanding Holy Scripture and who guides us? First the Holy Spirit and secondly Tradition and the Holy Fathers over the many centuries which have helped with the interpretations of the Bible."

You gave Christ His walking papers????!!!!! What happened????
hojo

Minneapolis, MN

#479733 Oct 2, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
~~~
YOU WROTE
The "WRITTEN WORD OF GOD" as we know it today (in the Bible) NEVER existed until the Early Church Fathers in 382,393, and 397AD interpreted the letters, documents, parchments and manuscripts from the Apostles, forming the "Canon of Scripture", giving all of us the TRUE INTERPRETATION of Gods Word (Old Testament and New Testament...
----
SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT GOD'S WORD NEVER EXISTED UNTIL YOUR
Again---I am saying that the "written WORD of God, as we know it (in the bible today, NEVER EXISTED until the Early Church Fathers, gave us the bible in 383,392, and 397AD. When Jesus Christ initiated HIS 1st Church at Antioch (Acts 2) the Apostles proclaimed the WORD OF GOD----directly from the "oral" teachings handed down by Jesus HIMSELF.(the "unwritten Word". THERE WAS NO BIBLE (the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD)!!!! In I thess 2:13 Paul confirms this by saying that the oral teachings of the Apostles are the Word of God which is exactly what was taught in the 1st century Church by the Apostles..... Paul re-confirms this aqain in 2 Thess 2:15 when he tells us we are to know the Gospel by "holding fast
to the traditions" handed down to us by the Apsostles from Jesus HIMSELF, whether by WORD OF MOUTH (orally) or by THE LETTER (written. He NEVER says the written only). Scripture doesn't say that all Christians teaching is to be found in Scripture!! Scripture tells us to obey Tradition as well. These teachings were handed down from the Apostles to the Early Church Fathers, who wrote about these things "in great detail". This is why Catholics believe in Sola Verbum dei (the Word of God alone). This word comes directly from Christ and the Apostles through both the written and the oral tradition,(again) 2 Thess 2:15 which has been entrusted to the Church that Jesus HIMSELF built in Matt 16:13-21, I Tim 3:15) The ineffable wisdom of God is made known through His Church (Eph.3:9-10...... I suggest that you read TRUE Apostolic Church History and discover how the Early Christians "interpreted the Word of God" and not you and your other 21 century preachers. If you do, you will be in a "holy shock"!!!
ReginaM

Toms River, NJ

#479734 Oct 2, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
Stop pretending your farts don't stink. There is nothing more obvious on this thread than the fact that the more anti-Catholic someone is, the more they reak of dung as they go about with their holier than thou attitudes.
Get real.
Very obvious...that's the first thing everyone notices who comes to this board. Don't let that thing bother you, it and the rest of the non-Catholics have the foulest, most abusive mouths I've ever heard. Every single one of them. Then they sit back and tell us about how God is always with them. Uh-huh. They should try a little more publican and lot less pharisee.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#479735 Oct 2, 2013
Oxbow wrote:
<quoted text>
Did I say Christ is not the Word? Did I say the Word is dead?? Did I say Christ is not among us. Did I say He would not always be??
Save face:
When one realizes their blunder and uses a tactic to try & cover up their mistake. Whether it works or not is to be determined by the situation.
You need to work on that....you have much room to improve!!!!
I said I use Christ for guidance. You criticized this and said you use the Word.Thats all. I am studying. No time for roundy rounders
Anthony MN

Champlin, MN

#479736 Oct 2, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>A symbolic traditional gesture of obedience eventually is a cheap shot at what baptism really is Anthony. Now your tradition claims that infant baptism regenerates and removes sin.Although I understand that in the human reasoning of things,and I can understand the prot concept as you stated which eventually boils down to tradition and rote practice as well.All human concepts of what was instituted by our Lord.
Baptism represents Christ's burial,and resurrection.And in the light of that is true baptism.The soul that repents first receives cleansing from the very foot of the Cross,and the shed Blood of our Lord Jesus,Baptism is the burial of that believer with Christ,and when he or she comes out of the Water of regeneration,they are resurrected unto the New Life in Christ.
That is Baptism,it is Christ,Christ and more of Him,which includes the limitless sphere of His changing grace toward us as believers who come to Him by faith,Repent of our sins,and proceed into the waters of Baptism to fulfill what Christ has done in us.
Human reasoning,and cheap practices do not explain the eternal significance of Baptism,Paul did,and we do every time one repents and is baptized for the remission of sins.
You can say that our Communion is some symbolic practice that completely gives us nothing at all,because you believe in Transubstantiation.
The truth is,The very memorial of His Holy and very significant D E A T H supersedes any human reasoning as to what is done to practice Holy Communion.Some of the most profound and very spiritual awakenings in the non-Catholic communities have been at the Communion Table.It is about what Christ suffered and died,and the spiritual awareness of that fact is limitless in comparison to our very limited framework of reference on any subject for that matter.Christ can of the most simple of elements awaken in His followers the deepest of spiritual essence. Our communion services could be rote,and so can yours,but when the Spirit of the LORD is present,He gives life to anything that He chooses to give life to.The dry bones in Ezekiel were given life by the LORD,and look what happened,He raised an army.
Anthony it is not about our C h u r c h practice,or even about whether we so believe it is doctrine and truth,it is about Him WHO gives to us undeserving sinners who have entered into the GATE of Him who purchased us with His own Blood. He makes the difference,and as you have heard more recently an expression well said,"It is not about us,it is about Him." Cheap communion is about us,but Holy Communion is about Him.
Forgive me for being a bit confused Dan, but are you saying baptism remits sin and regenerates only if it's preceded by repentence and acceptance of Christ by a cognitive person? And is there something other than symbolism in the action of the water and the invocation of the Blessed Trinity?
Chuck

Dublin, OH

#479737 Oct 2, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I know what you're sayin, Chuck. I do. But Christ set the Church up with the attention that two adults already Baptized into the Church, would bring forth their child to also be baptized into the Church, just like two Jewish parents bring forth the child to be circumcised. And the fact is, you can not show one single verse that says infants are NOT TO BE BAPTIZED. All of Christianity and the first couple waves of Protestantism did this.
I honestly believe its the will of the devil to prevent parents from bringing forth their baby for Baptism. That's why your new take on Baptism is, well....new. It wasn't taught in Christendom for 1800 yrs.
You haven't a clue what I'm saying.

but I knew you wouldn't let me down with this: It wasn't taught in Christendom for 1800 yrs.

This is your go to when you have said something dumb.
Concerned in Brasil

Aberdeen, UK

#479738 Oct 2, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
Ah! So, it was not merely this woman's faith. Rather, it was the woman's faith in combination with a very real power bestowed by Jesus. Thus, how can we say that Baptism is any different???
For example, would the proponents of "symbolic Baptism" suggest that the Lord's power to heal was somehow "magical" or "superstitious"? I doubt they would.:-) Yet, that is exactly what they say in regard to Baptismal regeneration.
Yet, didn't Jesus commission His disciples to Baptize in His name (Matt 28:19)? Just as he commissioned them to heal and cast out demons in His name, right?:-)
So, then, if Jesus' miracles (and those of His disciples) were acts of regeneration, so is His Sacrament of Baptism. Indeed, it cannot be otherwise, UNLESS
(a) One wishes to say that Jesus possessed no personal power to heal or perform miracles, but that these miracles were merely "psychosomatic" responses from those who believed in Him, OR...
(b) Despite Mark 2:1-12, etc., Jesus' healing miracles had no connection to the forgiveness of sins (and, thus, Jesus made people physically whole while leaving them spiritually alienated from the Father -- a ridiculous proposition).
Yet, if one takes either of these positions, one must also be willing to ignore the Scriptures (viz. Mark 2:1-12 & Mark 5:30).
As for the orthodox Christian understanding of Baptism (that of Baptismal regeneration), we recognize that Christ still touches people through the ministry of His Church. In this, we recognize that two things are necessary for salvation:
(1) Christ's free offer of salvation, and ...
(2) Our willing acceptance of this free offer of salvation.
If this were not the case (i.e. if #2 above was not necessary), then everyone who ever existed would have been automatically saved when Jesus died on the Cross (1 Tim 2:4). And it is in the realm of #2 which our faith comes in.
Yet,#1 is also an intimate reality for those of us who understand the Traditional doctrine of Baptismal regeneration. In this, Christ does not merely offer us salvation through a promise made 2000 years ago. Rather, He offers it to us in personal intimacy through the Sacrament of His Church. And, through this Sacrament, He touches us directly, just as He directly touched the paralytic and the woman with the hemorrhage. And, thus, in Baptism, we have
(1) Christ's healing power, through the ministry of His Body (the Church), touching us and making us whole, and ...
(2) Our faith in Christ moving us to accept this healing power.
And this is how Christ takes us unto Himself.
So, according to the Scriptures, Baptism is regenerational, sacramental, and intrinsic to one's acceptance of Christ. For, as the Lord says, it cannot be otherwise:
"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit." -- John 3:5
Mark J. Bonocore
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a25.htm
Just wondering oh great Pharisee of Pharisees, was that a three post 6000 word FLOOD of Spam like you chastised me for???

Best tell you now that is Sarcasm, forgot about your inability to pick up on the Idioms and meanings of language.

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