an infant cannot put he/her faith in Christ. You're welcome.<quoted text>
Jesus said it (baptism) was salvific and necessary.
He commanded baptism.
Join the discussion below, or Read more at CBC News.
#479687 Oct 2, 2013
#479688 Oct 2, 2013
An infant is born in Christ at baptism. lol...and they can't even remember it!!
Let me guess, don't have to because they have the certificate on mom and dad's wall at their house.
#479689 Oct 2, 2013
Infant Baptism is being born again.
I have to respectfully disagree with you....
Infant/child....INNOCENT BLOOD, Clay.....
There is no need to baptized......
What is the purpose of baptism???
38 They shed innocent blood,
the blood of their sons and daughters,
whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
and the land was desecrated by their blood.
***They shed INNOCENT BLOOD, the BLOOD of their sons and daughters.....
What did they sacrifice them to, Clay?
Did Jesus not have INNOCENT BLOOD???
Study these scriptures, Clay....
22 What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah? Pilate asked.
They all answered,Crucify him!
23 Why? What crime has he committed? asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder,Crucify him!
24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, <<<<<he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd.*****I am innocent of this mans blood, he said.It is your responsibility!*****> >>>>
25 All the people answered,~~~~~His blood is on us and on our children!~~~~~
26 Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.
***His blood is on US and on OUR CHILDREN....INNOCENT BLOOD...
What were they thinking?
#479690 Oct 2, 2013
cont. to Chuck
Yet, let's look at this issue from another angle. For example, as we've already seen in Acts 2:38, Baptism is clearly associated with the forgiveness of sins:
"Repent and be Baptized, every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Now, this being the case, one cannot avoid seeing a connection between Baptism and Jesus' healing miracles -- miracles which He almost always associated with the forgiveness of sins. For example, in Mark 2:3-12 we read:
"They came bringing him a paralytic carried by four men. Unable to get near Jesus because of the crowd, they opened the roof above him. After they had broken through, they let down the mat on which the paralytic was lying. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic 'Child, your sins are forgiven.' Now some of the scribes were sitting there asking themselves,'Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?' Jesus immediately knew in His mind what they were thinking to themselves, so He said,'Why are you thinking such things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven" or to say "Rise, pick up your mat and walk?" But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth'-- He said to the paralytic,'I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home.' He rose, picked up his mat at once, and went away in the sight of everyone."
So, from this, we can clearly see that the Scriptures draw a connection between Jesus' miracles and the forgiveness of sins. So, why do I bring this up?:-) Because it forces us to ask a very significant question:
QUESTION: What was the source of Jesus' miracles? Did the Lord's miracles emanate from Jesus Himself, being direct acts of His Divine, creative authority, or were they produced merely by the individual's personal faith in Jesus? Was it the individual's faith, and only the individual's faith, which brought about the miracle (i.e. a mystical, "psychosomatic" response)? Or was it something more?
And, indeed, the answer to this question is all-important to one's view of Baptism. If Jesus' miracles came about through His own power bestowed upon an individual, then Baptismal regeneration is certainly possible. Yet, if it was merely the person's faith in Jesus which cured them, then Baptism as a symbol makes perfect sense.
And, indeed, at first glance this seems to be the case. After all, how many times did Jesus say to those He cured "Thy faith has healed thee" or "Thy faith has made thee whole" ?
Therefore, can we not say that these miracles, like Baptism itself, are merely the product of the person's faith?
No.:-) No, we cannot. Because, if we turn to Mark 5:25-34, we see that it was not merely the person's faith, but also power emanating from Jesus which brought about these miracles.
"There was a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years. She had suffered greatly at the hands of many doctors and had spent all that she had. Yet she was not helped but only grew worse. She had heard about Jesus and came up behind Him in the crowd and touched His cloak. She said,'If I but touch His clothes, I shall be cured.' Immediately, her flow of blood dried up. She felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction. Jesus, aware at once that POWER HAD GONE OUT FROM HIM, turned and asked,' Who has touched my clothes?'....The woman, realizing what had happened to her, approached in fear and trembling. She fell down before Jesus and told Him the whole truth. He said to her,'Daughter, your faith has saved you.' "
#479691 Oct 2, 2013
Ah! So, it was not merely this woman's faith. Rather, it was the woman's faith in combination with a very real power bestowed by Jesus. Thus, how can we say that Baptism is any different???
For example, would the proponents of "symbolic Baptism" suggest that the Lord's power to heal was somehow "magical" or "superstitious"? I doubt they would.:-) Yet, that is exactly what they say in regard to Baptismal regeneration.
Yet, didn't Jesus commission His disciples to Baptize in His name (Matt 28:19)? Just as he commissioned them to heal and cast out demons in His name, right?:-)
So, then, if Jesus' miracles (and those of His disciples) were acts of regeneration, so is His Sacrament of Baptism. Indeed, it cannot be otherwise, UNLESS
(a) One wishes to say that Jesus possessed no personal power to heal or perform miracles, but that these miracles were merely "psychosomatic" responses from those who believed in Him, OR...
(b) Despite Mark 2:1-12, etc., Jesus' healing miracles had no connection to the forgiveness of sins (and, thus, Jesus made people physically whole while leaving them spiritually alienated from the Father -- a ridiculous proposition).
Yet, if one takes either of these positions, one must also be willing to ignore the Scriptures (viz. Mark 2:1-12 & Mark 5:30).
As for the orthodox Christian understanding of Baptism (that of Baptismal regeneration), we recognize that Christ still touches people through the ministry of His Church. In this, we recognize that two things are necessary for salvation:
(1) Christ's free offer of salvation, and ...
(2) Our willing acceptance of this free offer of salvation.
If this were not the case (i.e. if #2 above was not necessary), then everyone who ever existed would have been automatically saved when Jesus died on the Cross (1 Tim 2:4). And it is in the realm of #2 which our faith comes in.
Yet,#1 is also an intimate reality for those of us who understand the Traditional doctrine of Baptismal regeneration. In this, Christ does not merely offer us salvation through a promise made 2000 years ago. Rather, He offers it to us in personal intimacy through the Sacrament of His Church. And, through this Sacrament, He touches us directly, just as He directly touched the paralytic and the woman with the hemorrhage. And, thus, in Baptism, we have
(1) Christ's healing power, through the ministry of His Body (the Church), touching us and making us whole, and ...
(2) Our faith in Christ moving us to accept this healing power.
And this is how Christ takes us unto Himself.
So, according to the Scriptures, Baptism is regenerational, sacramental, and intrinsic to one's acceptance of Christ. For, as the Lord says, it cannot be otherwise:
"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit." -- John 3:5
Mark J. Bonocore
Saint Paul, MN
#479692 Oct 2, 2013
The "WRITTEN WORD OF GOD" as we know it today (in the Bible) NEVER existed until the Early Church Fathers in 382,393, and 397AD interpreted the letters, documents, parchments and manuscripts from the Apostles, forming the "Canon of Scripture", giving all of us the TRUE INTERPRETATION of Gods Word (Old Testament and New Testament.......... We, as Catholics, know the TRUTH of Gods Word, given to us over 1500 years ago by the TRUE INTERPRETATION from the Early Church Fathers. Today (as it has for over 2000 years) the TRUE Word of God is begin taught,ministered, confirmed and instructed today in and through Jesus Christs One True Catholic Church....... We RECEIVE the TRUTH of Gods Word, each and every day, at Daily Mass, in the Eucharist (Jesus' TRUE Body and Blood and in the 7 Sacraments....... You have "consistently" shown all of us Catholics that you "refuse" to believe the TRUTH of the TRUE INTERPRETATION of Gods Word, by just "making up your own (editorialized) anti-catholic interpretation of Gods Word, from each bible verse that you list, as you "continue" to condemn and judge the faith of "any and all" Christians,(especially Catholics) because they don't agree with your "soap box" ministry!!.....You can't even find agreement with your own "personal interpretation" of the bible among the majority of other bible only Protestants on this forum......... You "fundies" NEVER stop arguing among yourselves as to what the true interpretation of (each verse) of the bible actually is!!........ I/we as Catholics will (continue) to rely on our TRUE Faith and Salvation in Jesus Christ,(as other Catholics have for the past 2000 years) in and through Our Lords One True Catholic Church.......... God is Our final judge!!!....... Not you, Confrinting, or ANY OTHER (self-appointed bible only Protestant preacher) who twists, manipulates and mis-interprets the TRUE Word of God and the TRUTH of TRUE Apostolic Church History, to make it mean "ONLY" what you/they want it to mean!!!!
#479693 Oct 2, 2013
I did read what the Pope said about the obsessing over homosexuality and even abortion.What the pope failed to include,although he had some very good points,was that it is the DUTY of the Body of Christ to raise a standard against sin.That of course can be overdone,and wrongfully applied as well.
We have to be careful how we stand up against certain issues.But the statement"Be instant in season and out of season" also causes us to realize we do have a responsibility to speak out against the "giants" that encroach upon the whole society.
Homosexuality is a "giant" in our lifetime today.There is not one new show aired on TV that does not bring out a homosexual relationship. The world is doing this,so I am not saying they should not,because what the world does is already condemned in the Scriptures.But the believers have to be ready to take a stand which defends the daily life of each and everyone of us.Will the"giant" stop to just declare his or her own right to exist?We may all agree for the personal rights of individuals to exist,have a job they want without persecution,eat where they want to. But when they want to enter the classroom and demand that their lifestyle be promoted and taught to the very young,I believe we have the right to protest.
Same-sex marriage is a given,why? Well the world is biting at the bit to have it,the media is flaunting it continually,so it is soon to be the law of most countries to allow for such.But that does not mean the Body of Christ has to marry such individuals,nor go out of their way to accept the so called"sanctity of those unions".
Those Protestant groups or former Reformer churches who are promoting same-sex marriages by secretly marrying couples in states that have not passed the resolutions yet,are anathema to the Body of Christ.They have long gone their own way,to bring a curse upon their own heads.The reason why the reformer churches that have sold their souls to the devil,are doing these things,is because they are skeletons,no life,dead churches that glorify Man rather than God.They even mock God in their services.And they are empty for the most part,homosexual couples will bring more bodies,and children into their dead mausoleums.Their practices are so immersed in curses,that they are unaware that they are "ICHABOD" Which means:The glory of God has left us.
Ok so we can love homosexuals and be respectful to them,and that is without saying,as most believers are more than willing to love and respect others for the glory of Christ.But we do not have to run out of our way to make their path to receiving the curse of their own actions smoother,glossed over,comfortable.We are salt and light,and that requires pain and discomfort.
I eat lunch with a homosexual every day at work,there are times he wanted no doubt to throw me out of the room.It has not been easy for him to eat with me.But he wants me there for some reason!
#479694 Oct 2, 2013
What's the difference?? An infant born again at baptism without the faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Only makes sense to a catholic Clay.
“GOD SO LOVED US”
Since: Aug 08
He Gave His SON,JESUS Christ
#479695 Oct 2, 2013
#479696 Oct 2, 2013
#479697 Oct 2, 2013
Saint Paul, MN
#479698 Oct 2, 2013
Read their personal history, and background! I took the time!! Obviously "you didn't"! Do your homework before you start "throwing out" anti-catholic rhetoric such as this...On the other hand------maybe you did, hoping, wishing, praying that NO ONE would take the time to "uncover" the anti-catholic (perpetrated) undermining intentions of these "so-called bible experts"!!! You are not "fooling me or any other Catholic with these "bible "hack" experts!!!
#479699 Oct 2, 2013
Acts 5:31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
Acts 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may thus receive forgiveness and release from their sins and a place and portion among those who are consecrated and purified by faith in Me.
Acts 13:38 So let it be clearly known and understood by you, brethren, that through this Man forgiveness and removal of sins is now proclaimed to you;
**Interesting....Peter talking about forgiveness of sins and not once mentions baptism. Why do catholics ignore this?
#479700 Oct 2, 2013
You say infants are born again at baptism. Share with me your born again experience. thanks
#479701 Oct 2, 2013
2 Samuel 12:20-23
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21 His attendants asked him,Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!
22 He answered,While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought,Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.
23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.
I will go to him.....David's infant....sinless...INNOCENT BLOOD.....
he will NOT return to me....
Think about it!!!
#479702 Oct 2, 2013
One other thing:
Did David's son go to a grave?
Was David comforted?
Yes, he was....WHY?
What comfort could there be to David to say he would join his son in the grave?
Think about it!!!
Since: Jun 10
#479703 Oct 2, 2013
Did I judge his testimony or his relationship with Christ???
“GOD SO LOVED US”
Since: Aug 08
He Gave His SON,JESUS Christ
#479704 Oct 2, 2013
HOWEVER you believe . It's,says,repent ...And be baptized,..Anthony
The man had,Faith ..'re woman had Faith. JESUS,Saved them and Wales them BECAUSE OF THEIR FAIH...
Since: Jun 10
#479705 Oct 2, 2013
You are welcome to follow your meology...I will follow the Word of God:
Christians do not seek the guidance of Christ...no need...we rely on, accept, and live by His promise:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Evidently you don't live by His Word....
#479706 Oct 2, 2013
Not sure why do you think these verses supersede the ones where he does equate baptism with forgiving sins.
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