Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Jul 10, 2007 Read more: CBC News 582,768
The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. Read more

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#469017 Aug 6, 2013
The following post was presented in Topix. It listed quotes (Catholic site) from Orthodox that were used to illustrate that Orthodox in the early centuries recognized the Supremacy of the Pope.

I will provide the first the quote from the Catholic site then an illustration of how it is used to mislead the reader into believing it means more than it does and it is more significant than it is.
==========
CATHOLIC SITE QUOTE: Macedonius, Patriarch of Constantinople (466-516)

Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that 'such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible.'(Macedonius, Patr. Graec. 108: 360a (Theophan. Chronogr. pp. 234-346 seq.)

CATHOLIC SITE QUOTE: St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828)
Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles.(Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).

----------
BEHIND THE CURTAIN:

It is interesting that Macedonius and state that no Ecumenical Synod could occur without the Pope since the Pope did not attend any of the 7 Ecumenical Councils.
Usually The Pope usually sent 2 legates and at tops 5 people.
The Pope presided over none. His legates presided over none.

==========
Some claim that Ossius of Cordoba, who presided over Nicea 1 was a representative of the Pope. However Ossius was ecclesiastical adviser to Emperor Constantine I, and Constantine's trusted associate so it is highly more likely that he was Constantine's representative

==========
The most credible claim regarding the Pope having a representative who presided at a Council was Cyril , Bishop of Alexandria.

Cyril had been at the forefront of battling the heresy of Nestorius. Cyril persuaded Pope Celestine I to convoke a synod at Rome, which condemned Nestorius, and then did the same at his own synod in Alexandria. Celestine directed Cyril to depose Nestorius, and in 431,

Cyril presided over the third General Council at Ephesus, attended by some two hundred bishops, which condemned all the tenets of Nestorius.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#469018 Aug 6, 2013
The following post was presented in Topix. It listed quotes (Catholic site) from Orthodox that were used to illustrate that Orthodox in the early centuries recognized the Supremacy of the Pope.

I will provide the first the quote from the Catholic site then an illustration of how it is used to mislead the reader into believing it means more than it does and it is more significant than it is.
----------
CATHOLIC SITE QUOTE: John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople

The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren.(John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)
==========
BEHIND THE CURTAIN:
John VI was placed on the patriarchal throne in 712 by Emperor Philippikos, as a replacement for the deposed Patriarch Kyros.

John was favored by his sponsor, emperor Philippicus Bardanes, because he shared his heretical Monothelite sympathies.

John assembled a group of bishops that repealed the canons of the Sixth Ecumenical Council which included the condemnation of Monothelitism (Jesus Christ has two natures but only one will.

This is heresy.

So how does one laud a Pope as head of the Church yet be obviously heretical of the Pope and his Church?

How can John VI be a spokesman for the Eastern Orthodox point of view of the Pope when he is a heretic of this Church?

The religious policy of the new patriarch and his emperor caused the temporary rupture of relations with the Roman Church.

However, in 715 the new Emperor Anastasios II deposed John VI and replaced him with the Orthodox Patriarch Germanos I.

The rise of Patr. John VI on the coat tails of emperor Philippicus proved to be short as John was deposed when emperor Anastasius II replaced Philippicus on the imperial throne in 715.

With the departures of Philippicus and John VI the Church saw the last of the heresy of Monothelitism and of the short lasting schism with the Church of Rome over it.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#469019 Aug 6, 2013
CATHOLIC SITE QUOTES: Emperor Justinian (520-533)
Writing to the Pope:
EDITED FOR SPACE
" ... you are the Head of all the holy Churches.(Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).

Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all.(Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).
==========
BEHIND THE CURTAIN:

There is nothing in Justinian's 533AD letter to Pope John II declaring the pope to be the “definer of doctrine” or “corrector of heretics”.

He does refer to the Pope as the “head of all Churches”. But Justinian’s Code also recognized the Church of Constantinople as the “mother” of all churches and the “head of all others”.

And a few years Justinian referred to Patriarchs Anthimus and Menas as “Universal Bishops”.

Lofty words. Justinian calling the popes or the patriarchs the heads of the church or universal bishops was merely window dressing.The emperor was truly the definer of doctrine and the corrector of heretics. This can be clearly witnessed throughout the course of Justinian’s reign and within his legislation.

As in his secular administration, despotism appeared also in the Emperor's ecclesiastical policy. He regulated everything, both in religion and in law.
==========
The emperor conceived himself as "priest and king", supreme head on earth in matters ecclesiastical as well as the State

All through his reign he fell foul of the authority of the Church by his attempts to conciliate the Monophysites,a constant source of disunion and trouble to the empire.

Justinian's wife Theodora was a secret Monophysite; influenced by her, the emperor, while maintaining Chalcedon, tried to satisfy the heretics by various compromises.

This led to what was called the "3 Chapters controversy" 3 Bishops whose writings Justinian condemned,claiming they were Nestorian- a heresy a common enemy of both Chalcedonians and Monophysites.

It was purely political.

Justinian wanted to use Pope Vigilius as a pawn.

Pope Vigilius refused to condemn the 3 Chapters.

Justinian used every means he could to get Vigilius to comply with his views (including kidnapping, house arrest, physical abuse).

Finally in a letter Vigilius secretly promised Justinian that he would do everything possible to secure the condemnation of the Three Chapters

Justinian convened the Fifth Ecumenical Council over Pope Vigilius' express objections, and when Vigilius refused to come, although dragged to Constantinople for the occasion. The Council convened without him.

The Bishops tried to convince Vigilius to come to the Council. He preferred to make his statement in writing. The Bishops assured Viligius they would make a united stand with him.

However there was a reason why Vigilius boycotted the Council. He had previously secretly promised Justinian that he would do everything possible to secure the condemnation of the Three Chapters.

The Council convened without him.

At the Council, Justinian produced the written evidence of Vigilius' secret agreement from Vigilius' own hand. Vigilius was exposed as deceptive. The bishops' support was lost.
Justinian had publically humiliated the Pope by making public a once-private doctrinal document.

Justinian then ordered the pope's name to be struck from the diptychs, making it clear, however, that he was severing communion with him personally, not with the holy see. The Bishops complied.

In other words Justinian needed a figure head by which he could control the East and West Church.T he Bishop of Rome could be the head of both only if he played ball with Justinian.

We should remember that certain Patriarchs supported the Pope's " primacy" for various political reasons. At times they reverse or acted contradictory to their support when the political circumstances changed.
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#469020 Aug 6, 2013
St. Maximus the Confessor (c. 650)
A celebrated theologian and a native of Constantinople

The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High.(Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)

How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome.(Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to pursuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, accodring to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and surpreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world.(Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#469021 Aug 6, 2013
St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)

Writing to Pope Leo III:
Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred.[Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven.(Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)

Writing to Pope Paschal:
Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. xliii. 23). To thee spake Christ our Lord:'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all.(Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)

Writing to Emperor Michael:
Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highests of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)

I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter.(Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

In truth we have seen that a manifest successor of the prince of the Apostles presides over the Roman Church. We truly believe that Christ has not deserted the Church here (Constantinople), for assistance from you has been our one and only aid from of old and from the beginning by the providence of God in the critical times. You are, indeed the untroubled and pure fount of orthodoxy from the beginning, you the calm harbor of the whole Church, far removed from the waves of heresy, you the God-chosen city of refuge.(Letter of St. Theodor and Four Abbots to Pope Paschal).

Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See.(Theodore the Studite, Patr. Graec. 99, 1420)
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#469022 Aug 6, 2013
St. Athanasius (362)

Rome is called the Apostolic throne.(Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35)

The Chief, Peter.(Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)

Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450)
A native of Antioch, Theodoret ruled under the Antiochean Patriarch.

The great foundation of the Church was shaken, and confirmed by the Divine grace. And the Lord commanded him to apply that same care to the brethren.'And thou,' He says,'converted, confirm thy brethren.'(Theodoret, Tom. iv. Haeret. Fab. lib. v.c. 28)

'For as I,' He says,'did not despise thee when tossed, so be thou a support to thy brethren in trouble, and the help by which thou was saved do thou thyself impart to others, and exhort them not while they are tottering, but raise them up in their peril. For this reason I suffer thee also to slip, but do not permit thee to fall, thus through thee gaining steadfastness for those who are tossed.' So this great pillar supported the tossing and sinking world, and permitted it not to fall entirely and gave it back stability, having been ordered to feed God's sheep.(Theodoret, Oratio de Caritate in J. P. Minge, ed., Partrologiae Curses Completus: Series Graeca).

I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds.(Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).

If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives.(Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni)
Clay

United States

#469023 Aug 6, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
CATHOLIC SITE QUOTES: Emperor Justinian (520-533)
Writing to the Pope:
EDITED FOR SPACE
" ... you are the Head of all the holy Churches.(Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).
Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all.(Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).
==========
BEHIND THE CURTAIN:
There is nothing in Justinian's 533AD letter to Pope John II declaring the pope to be the “definer of doctrine” or “corrector of heretics”.
He does refer to the Pope as the “head of all Churches”. But Justinian’s Code also recognized the Church of Constantinople as the “mother” of all churches and the “head of all others”.
And a few years Justinian referred to Patriarchs Anthimus and Menas as “Universal Bishops”.
Lofty words. Justinian calling the popes or the patriarchs the heads of the church or universal bishops was merely window dressing.The emperor was truly the definer of doctrine and the corrector of heretics. This can be clearly witnessed throughout the course of Justinian’s reign and within his legislation.
As in his secular administration, despotism appeared also in the Emperor's ecclesiastical policy. He regulated everything, both in religion and in law.
==========
The emperor conceived himself as "priest and king", supreme head on earth in matters ecclesiastical as well as the State
All through his reign he fell foul of the authority of the Church by his attempts to conciliate the Monophysites,a constant source of disunion and trouble to the empire.
Justinian's wife Theodora was a secret Monophysite; influenced by her, the emperor, while maintaining Chalcedon, tried to satisfy the heretics by various compromises.
This led to what was called the "3 Chapters controversy" 3 Bishops whose writings Justinian condemned,claiming they were Nestorian- a heresy a common enemy of both Chalcedonians and Monophysites.
It was purely political.
Justinian wanted to use Pope Vigilius as a pawn.
Pope Vigilius refused to condemn the 3 Chapters.
Justinian used every means he could to get Vigilius to comply with his views (including kidnapping, house arrest, physical abuse).
Finally in a letter Vigilius secretly promised Justinian that he would do everything possible to secure the condemnation of the Three Chapters
Justinian convened the Fifth Ecumenical Council over Pope Vigilius' express objections, and when Vigilius refused to come,
Snipped for space
I've tried very hard to understand Orthodoxy in the last couple yrs. I'm about ready to give up..I understand the Sacraments that the Apostles gave you, because we have them too. The Eucharist binds us because it came from Jesus Christ and explained by His Apostles.
Yet, Orthodoxy in general ie the hierarchal make up is so confusing. Greek, Ukraine, Russian.... I don't get it. Does a head of State have a say in the day to day operations of the Orthodox Church?
Also, there is no doubt Orthodox Bishops sometimes handled their own business 1800 yrs ago without direction from the Bishop of Rome. What were they to do if they needed answers? Wait 18 months for the messenger to return to Constantinople with a letter?? Its not like they could have faxed the Pope a doctrinal issue to be resolved that day...
Also, its obvious in todays world, that one Bishop and one fold is critical. imo Maybe that's why Christ set it up that way.... He foresaw the 20th and 21st Century, where a Pope was badly needed -politically and diplomaticly.
Speaking of that, I am in awe of our current Pope, Francis. What a wonderful vicar we have today.

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#469024 Aug 6, 2013
If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives.(Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni)

~~~

There is -->only one throne that I want to approach....

and kneel humbly at His feet...

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and

--->the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: <==

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

~~~

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


Heb 4:16 ==> Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. <==

Heb 12:2 ==> Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;

who for the joy that was set before him

endured the cross, despising the shame,

and

==>is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

OF OTHER THRONES I HAVE NO INTEREST...

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#469025 Aug 6, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)
Writing to Pope Leo III:
Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred.[Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven.(Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)
Writing to Pope Paschal:
Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. xliii. 23). To thee spake Christ our Lord:'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all.(Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)
Writing to Emperor Michael:
Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highests of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)
I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter.(Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).
In truth we have seen that a manifest successor of the prince of the Apostles presides over the Roman Church. We truly believe that Christ has not deserted the Church here (Constantinople), for assistance from you has been our one and only aid from of old and from the beginning by the providence of God in the critical times. You are, indeed the untroubled and pure fount of orthodoxy from the beginning, you the calm harbor of the whole Church, far removed from the waves of heresy, you the God-chosen city of refuge.(Letter of St. Theodor and Four Abbots to Pope Paschal).
Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See.(Theodore the Studite, Patr. Graec. 99, 1420)
The Studite is legitimate.Keep in mind that the monastic order he founded are Eastern Catholics today, not Eastern Orthodox. If the Eastern Catholic existed when the Studite lived he very likely would have been Eastern Catholic, therefor not representative of Orthodox on the Pope issue. Theodore the Studite is loved by the Orthodox for his defense of the icons.

“GOD SO LOVED US”

Since: Aug 08

He Gave His SON to Save us

#469026 Aug 6, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
Seed from Masada is the oldest to germinate
The World
June 13, 2008|Wendy Hansen | Times Staff Wr
Scientists using radiocarbon dating have confirmed that an ancient Judean date palm seed among those found in the ruins of Masada in present-day Israel and planted three years ago is 2,000 years old -- the oldest seed ever to germinate.
The seed has grown into a healthy, 4-foot-tall seedling, surpassing the previous record for oldest germinated seed -- a 1,300-year-old Chinese lotus, researchers reported Thursday in the journal Science.
The tree has been named Methuselah after the oldest person in the Bible. It is the only living Judean date palm, the last link to the vast date palm forests that once shaded and nourished the region.
Sarah Sallon, who directs the Louis L. Borick Natural Medicine Research Center in Jerusalem, became interested in the ancient date palm as a possible source of medicines. She enlisted Dr. Elaine Solowey of the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies at Kibbutz Ketura to coax the seeds out of dormancy.
One sprouted. Scientists estimated that it was about 2,000 years old based on carbon dating of other seeds found at the site, but they had no way of directly testing the planted seed without risking its chance of germinating.
After the Methuselah seed germinated, Solowey found fragments of the seed shell clinging to the roots -- enough for dating.
The shell fragments initially dated to AD 295, give or take 50 years, but a small percentage of "modern" carbon incorporated as the seed germinated made it appear 250 to 300 years younger. Correcting for this factor, the researchers reported that the seed dates from 60 BC to AD 95, similar to the other seeds from the site.
That placed the seed at Masada a few years after the Roman siege there in 73, when, according to the ancient historian Josephus, nearly 1,000 Jewish Zealots in the Masada fortress committed mass suicide rather than capitulate to the Romans. They burned most of their food stores, leaving a single cache to show that they did not starve to death.
"These people were eating these dates up on the mountain and looking down at the Roman camp, knowing that they were going to die soon, and spitting out the pits," Sallon said. "Maybe here is one of those pits."
Archaeologists excavating the ancient fortress of Masada unearthed the seeds in 1965, and they sat in storage for four decades before being planted.
The seeds probably survived for so long because of the extremely arid conditions of the Masada mesa, said Cary Fowler, seed preservation expert and executive director of the Global Crop Diversity Trust, which maintains the Svalbard Global Seed Vault in Norway.
Think this is what I saw
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2010/...
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#469027 Aug 6, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
CATHOLIC SITE QUOTES: Emperor Justinian (520-533)
Writing to the Pope:
EDITED FOR SPACE
" ... you are the Head of all the holy Churches.(Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).
Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all.(Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).
==========
BEHIND THE CURTAIN:
Thus Alexander Schmemann wrote:

It is impossible to deny that, even before the appearance of local primacies, the Church from the first days of her existence possessed an ecumenical center of unity and agreement. In the apostolic and Judeo-Christian period, it was the Church of Jerusalem, and later the Church of Rome – presiding in agape, according to St. Ignatius of Antioch. This formula and the definition of the universal primacy contained in it have been aptly analyzed by Fr Afanassieff and we need not repeat his argument here. Neither can we quote here all testimonies of the fathers and the councils unanimously acknowledging Rome as the senior church and the center of ecumenical agreement. IT IS ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF BIASED POLEMICS THAT ONE CAN IGNORE THESE TESTIMONIES, THEIR CONSENSUS AND SIGNIFICANCE.
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#469028 Aug 6, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
<quoted text>The Studite is legitimate.Keep in mind that the monastic order he founded are Eastern Catholics today, not Eastern Orthodox. If the Eastern Catholic existed when the Studite lived he very likely would have been Eastern Catholic, therefor not representative of Orthodox on the Pope issue. Theodore the Studite is loved by the Orthodox for his defense of the icons.
St. Theodore was orthodox. Very telling that his opinion AT THAT TIME IN HISOTRY re: the bishop of Rome was not considered heresy, as so many "Othodox" Christians think today.

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#469029 Aug 6, 2013
JESUS SAID

Joh_14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you:

for the prince of this world cometh,

and hath nothing in me.
___

QUESTION

WHO IS CURRENTLY CLAIMING TO BE THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD..

DOES HE NO SIT ON HIS UNIVERSAL (CATHOLIC)THRONE IN ROME ITALY.

IS HE NOT THE ONE JESUS SAID WOULD COME...

~~~

IS HIS FOLLOWERS/ADHERENCE'S... NOT WRESTLING WITH THE

REST OF THE

WORLD TO DECEIVE THEM TO REVERE HIS SUPREME AUTHORITY,

AS HE ATTEMPTS TO USURP THE THRONE OF JESUS.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,(by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#469030 Aug 6, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Thus Alexander Schmemann wrote:
It is impossible to deny that, even before the appearance of local primacies, the Church from the first days of her existence possessed an ecumenical center of unity and agreement. In the apostolic and Judeo-Christian period, it was the Church of Jerusalem, and later the Church of Rome – presiding in agape, according to St. Ignatius of Antioch. This formula and the definition of the universal primacy contained in it have been aptly analyzed by Fr Afanassieff and we need not repeat his argument here. Neither can we quote here all testimonies of the fathers and the councils unanimously acknowledging Rome as the senior church and the center of ecumenical agreement. IT IS ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF BIASED POLEMICS THAT ONE CAN IGNORE THESE TESTIMONIES, THEIR CONSENSUS AND SIGNIFICANCE.
Alexander Schmemannis known for writing criticism of the Othodox Church,often helpful.If he was Catholic the Catholic church would have more or less condemned him and refused him permission to teach as they have done with Hans Kung and many others.

Dont you remember you posted the same quote about a month ago and I responded.Unless you are that professor from Back to the Future asm not going back there.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#469031 Aug 6, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
St. Theodore was orthodox. Very telling that his opinion AT THAT TIME IN HISOTRY re: the bishop of Rome was not considered heresy, as so many "Orthodox" Christians think today.
Again I am not going to post with someone on a ridiculous line of logic. Dont you get it. He was only Orthodox because there were no Orthodox Catholic Church back then. His view on the pope does not reflect Orthodoxy but Orthodox Catholics. No soup for you.I am supposed to debate you on this?????

It was not considered Heresy because the schism didnt happed yet. thats it Im done.
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#469032 Aug 6, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
<quoted text>The Studite is legitimate.Keep in mind that the monastic order he founded are Eastern Catholics today, not Eastern Orthodox. If the Eastern Catholic existed when the Studite lived he very likely would have been Eastern Catholic, therefor not representative of Orthodox on the Pope issue. Theodore the Studite is loved by the Orthodox for his defense of the icons.
I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter.(Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

Was St. Theodore a heretic?

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#469033 Aug 6, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
St. Athanasius (362)
Rome is called the Apostolic throne.(Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35)
The Chief, Peter.(Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)
Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450)
A native of Antioch, Theodoret ruled under the Antiochean Patriarch.
The great foundation of the Church was shaken, and confirmed by the Divine grace. And the Lord commanded him to apply that same care to the brethren.'And thou,' He says,'converted, confirm thy brethren.'(Theodoret, Tom. iv. Haeret. Fab. lib. v.c. 28)
'For as I,' He says,'did not despise thee when tossed, so be thou a support to thy brethren in trouble, and the help by which thou was saved do thou thyself impart to others, and exhort them not while they are tottering, but raise them up in their peril. For this reason I suffer thee also to slip, but do not permit thee to fall, thus through thee gaining steadfastness for those who are tossed.' So this great pillar supported the tossing and sinking world, and permitted it not to fall entirely and gave it back stability, having been ordered to feed God's sheep.(Theodoret, Oratio de Caritate in J. P. Minge, ed., Partrologiae Curses Completus: Series Graeca).
I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds.(Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).
If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives.(Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni)
Do you seriously think I am going to spend my time debunking every quote listed on the site you are getting from. If you examine their credibility on the ones I debunked they only got 1 right.Thats enough for me to know their credibility.I dont have time following the Catholics around on their web sites correcting all their spins.

“OneLordOneFaith Eph4:5”

Since: Apr 08

Saint John Paul II Pray 4 Us.

#469034 Aug 6, 2013
Study list Pope Francis as the most influential

leader in social media

http://www.romereports.com/palio/study-lists-...

All for the glory of God!!!!

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#469035 Aug 6, 2013
Now I am not certain if the Studite was preschism. LOL
Shacking I could be wrong. LOL
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#469036 Aug 6, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
<quoted text>Alexander Schmemannis known for writing criticism of the Othodox Church,often helpful.If he was Catholic the Catholic church would have more or less condemned him and refused him permission to teach as they have done with Hans Kung and many others.
Dont you remember you posted the same quote about a month ago and I responded.Unless you are that professor from Back to the Future asm not going back there.
You berated him, that I remember. I don't recall you showing me anything he said that approached the level heterodoxy that Hans Kung exhibits. He was by no means an "Orthodox Hans Kung", much as you'd like me to think.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Pope Benedict XVI Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Armenian Genocide: Turkey To Convert Hagia Sofi... 8 min SpaceBlues 1
News Turkey disappointed with Pope's Armenian 'genoc... 13 hr Erkek Turk 19
News United House of Prayer for All People: Bishop's... (Apr '08) 15 hr IM Just Saying 9,176
News Turkish Leaders Invoke Crusades, Inquisition in... 18 hr Chuck 23
News What Divides Catholics and Protestants? (Apr '08) 19 hr dollarsbill 84,037
News St. Peter's overflows for historic day of 4 popes (Apr '14) Thu ELIAS IBARRA 51
News Pope calls Armenian slaughter '1st genocide of ... Apr 15 SpaceBlues 3
More from around the web