Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News 545,121
The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. Full Story

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#431812 Apr 9, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Clay"
Just like in Luke 24: 30-31, you can not understand Scriptures until you partake in the Holy Eucharist.
**********
Then tell me why that the Eucharist Only crew REJECTS THE SCRIPTURES?
KayMarie
KayMarie, please, the Catholics WROTE the Holy Scriptures. For 300 years Christians had no Bible as we know it today, until THEY put it together. There is oral tradition, and there is written tradition. Oral tradition became Sacred Tradition, the traditions of God, who indeed likes incense, and ritual and all the trapping of holiness. He wants us to WORK at our faith, and that means more than just going to Church on Sunday. Written Tradition became the Bible, which THEY, the Catholics, combined and went to GREAT LENGTHS to put together, and during a time when they were still being persecuted, despite tolerance from the Roman state.

No, they don't worship Mary. They respect and honor her as the Mother of Jesus. No, they don't pray to the saints, they ASK for their prayers. No, they don't believe the dead are dead, but in Heaven with God praying for us to get through this sometimes awful and challenging life. And every ritual performed at mass is what the Jews were COMMANDED to do by God, and nowhere was that changed or altered. No, pagan elements were NOT introduced, but some pagan holidays were Christianize to respect the culture and honor the people, without compromising the the faith in any way. And no one fought against slavery, elevated women, fought against abortion (a SERIOUS problem in Roman times), and maintained marriage between a man and woman (against the pagans who thought otherwise for centuries) more so than the Catholic Church.

In fact, I knew a few Jews that became Catholic when they saw it was more Jewish than their own religion, and were shocked at how true to Levite priesthood it was.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#431813 Apr 9, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
The same reasons why you reject Jesus.....
- prefer to believe and trust the men who gave you your belief
- prefer to only follow what men have presented as the correct belief
Not too hard at all to answer, if honesty is used.
Unfortunately, you don't recognize the Self aspect of these choices.
*sighs*
And that is wrong, how?

What does it mean to "believe?" It means to be have been persuaded that something is true. Is not ALL education thus? Are you saying no one should teach anyone anything? That we cannot trust others to be true to their word?

And how does she reject Jesus?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#431814 Apr 9, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
OK Protestants, let's stop with the Catholic-bashing. While there may have been a legitimate reason to explode into separate churches during the time of Martin Luther, those days a long gone, and any reason or justification to remain separate now is very questionable. Were there many in the Church that were corrupt and unfaithful? Of course, always have been, and always will. Is that an excuse to leave it? No.
Undeniable facts. Jesus established one church. That's how God rolls, and always has. He did not make two tribes to be the priesthood, he made one, the Levites. There is only one priesthood, one moral authority, one God, one Church. All ancient records confirm this. The word "catholic" was used in the 1st Century, as was the Eucharist and everything else.
In Martin Luther's days, they didn't have the means to confirm much of this. So a lot of nonsense erupted that is proven untrue now. Modern evidence confirms more than ever that the Catholic Church, or at the very LEAST, the Orthodox Church, had it right.
What really irks me is that most Catholics are not Catholics, and many Protestants are more Catholic than Catholics. And yet, what irks me even more, is that far ... FAR more protestors are out there in front of Planned Parenthood, or at the Walk for Life, then evangelicals. Why is that?
And guess what? Even the Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft acknowledges that Protestants DO have something going, they have the Holy Spirit, and that is why Latin Americans are leaving the Catholics and going Protestant in great numbers. He admits this. A Catholic.
So, does that mean we should remain divided? Or try and unite the Holy Spirit and the One True Church again? More than ever, in this day in age, we must unite. That means putting aside your pride and your hubris. That means Catholics better stop saying they are proud to be Catholic, and start calling yourself Christians, as that is what you really are. And that means Protestant or Evangelicals need to stop with the misinformation and lies you keep spouting about your Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
Will you begin believing in all of what Jesus taught and not just what men have dictated for you?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#431815 Apr 9, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
And that is wrong, how?
What does it mean to "believe?" It means to be have been persuaded that something is true. Is not ALL education thus? Are you saying no one should teach anyone anything? That we cannot trust others to be true to their word?
And how does she reject Jesus?
Good points YH.

"to believe"
- is to utilize your mind to make a choice in determining if something should be accepted - and make the appropriate actions to achieve it.

"Is not ALL education thus?"
- yes it is, but based upon facts and history.
- The Bible may be taught as true, but the true facts and the real history, sort of ruins it.

"Are you saying no one should teach anyone anything?"
I didn't say that at all. I encourange people to learn and study.

"That we cannot trust others to be true to their word?"
- Can you? If you did, then you would also believe that the teachigns by Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas falls into this category, as done GoPhilip, GoMary, and any other texts not included in the canon.

And how does she reject Jesus?
- by only accepting what men have dictated as "The Bible", even though there are numerous other teachings by Jesus.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#431816 Apr 9, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Will you begin believing in all of what Jesus taught and not just what men have dictated for you?
Yes. But, all of what Jesus taught has been passed down by men and women, so I ALSO trust that the message has been delivered faithfully, by thousands, if not tens of thousands, who have taken the time to copy and recopy the Scripture faithfully, spending untold days and years of their lives in doing so, so that we may know His word.

But, if I remember correctly, aren't you a Gnostic? Forgive me if I am mistaken, but there are many foul people in these last 2000 years putting words in Jesus's mouth that never were uttered.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#431817 Apr 9, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Good points YH.
"to believe"
- is to utilize your mind to make a choice in determining if something should be accepted - and make the appropriate actions to achieve it.
"Is not ALL education thus?"
- yes it is, but based upon facts and history.
- The Bible may be taught as true, but the true facts and the real history, sort of ruins it.
"Are you saying no one should teach anyone anything?"
I didn't say that at all. I encourange people to learn and study.
"That we cannot trust others to be true to their word?"
- Can you? If you did, then you would also believe that the teachigns by Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas falls into this category, as done GoPhilip, GoMary, and any other texts not included in the canon.
And how does she reject Jesus?
- by only accepting what men have dictated as "The Bible", even though there are numerous other teachings by Jesus.
I have been researching history for a LONG time now, and the evidence just isn't there. I held many prejudices against ALL religion because of the constant lies of those in modern times who like to twist things for one agenda or another.

It was my own personal research of history that made me reevaluate the very things you are claiming to be true, that there is some disconnect between what people say Jesus did (the Catholics) and what actual occurred.(Atheists/Gnostics/Ar ians and other heretics.)

And yes, I flirted with Gnosticism because it sounded appealing, it seemed to have some dash of truth to it. But after several years, I've rejected it all. No more self-interpretation of the Bible. No more adding my own theories to history to justify some little sin. No more BS. It is what it is, and God is quite clear on how He wants things to be. And for the most part, most Christians got it right all this time, and most Christians, until the last 500 years, have been Catholic.

Any notion that some small minority of Gnostics or Arians or anyone else were privy to the REAL Gospels for these last 2000 is BS, pure and simple. And I have indeed found this to be true on my own, and rather dismayed to have to dispel my own prejudices, believe me. And no I know ... the worst lies are those mixed with truth.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#431818 Apr 9, 2013
Dang it, where is the edit option to correct typos?

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#431819 Apr 9, 2013
who="Yankee Yahoo" OK Protestants, let's stop with the Catholic-bashing. While there may have been a legitimate reason to explode into separate churches during the time of Martin Luther, those days a long gone, and any reason or justification to remain separate now is very questionable. Were there many in the Church that were corrupt and unfaithful? Of course, always have been, and always will. Is that an excuse to leave it? No.
Undeniable facts. Jesus established one church. That's how God rolls, and always has. He did not make two tribes to be the priesthood, he made one, the Levites. There is only one priesthood, one moral authority, one God, one Church. All ancient records confirm this. The word "catholic" was used in the 1st Century, as was the Eucharist and everything else.
In Martin Luther's days, they didn't have the means to confirm much of this. So a lot of nonsense erupted that is proven untrue now. Modern evidence confirms more than ever that the Catholic Church, or at the very LEAST, the Orthodox Church, had it right.
What really irks me is that most Catholics are not Catholics, and many Protestants are more Catholic than Catholics. And yet, what irks me even more, is that far ... FAR more protestors are out there in front of Planned Parenthood, or at the Walk for Life, then evangelicals. Why is that?
And guess what? Even the Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft acknowledges that Protestants DO have something going, they have the Holy Spirit, and that is why Latin Americans are leaving the Catholics and going Protestant in great numbers. He admits this. A Catholic.
So, does that mean we should remain divided? Or try and unite the Holy Spirit and the One True Church again? More than ever, in this day in age, we must unite. That means putting aside your pride and your hubris. That means Catholics better stop saying they are proud to be Catholic, and start calling yourself Christians, as that is what you really are. And that means Protestant or Evangelicals need to stop with the misinformation and lies you keep spouting about your Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

**********

Hey, Yankee...You are right that all Christians need to get together. Jesus prayed that we would all be ONE. But I don't think we should gather under any existing banner. Wouldn't the 'folks' delight in being able to say that WE were right all along?

There is One Christ Jesus, and He must be first. I wouldn't fly any other banner.

There are some CC's who accept the Holy Spirit baptism.

KM

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#431820 Apr 9, 2013
who="Yankee Yahoo" Dang it, where is the edit option to correct typos?

**********

You can use the directional arrows to return to a typo, delete the error and re-type it; or the backspace arrow, which will delete everything it goes over.
You can also shade the whole sentence, then delete.

It's a LOT easier than the old pen and paper method.

KM
Clay

Saint Paul, MN

#431821 Apr 9, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Clay"
I know for certain that what you speak about the Catholic faith is not truthful. Therefore one can conclude the Holy Spirit is not guiding you in the preaching department.
**********
And you would question the supposed first pope just to declare someone else to be wrong? You would declare the Word of God to be false rather than admit the failings of the CC?
I didn't write the book of Acts...and when Peter preached to the house of Cornelius, they all spoke with tongues. All of the Apostles AND MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS spoke with tongues...as well as many others.
My 'preaching' is simply telling what the Good Book says.
You don't seem to have any respect for that book.
KayMarie
I have the utmost respect for the Holy Scriptures of the NT and the Church that gave it to us and told us it was Holy Scriptures. Its their interpretations that matter. Not yours or your husbands or the thousands of other self proclaimed authorities. Don't take that as an insult, but rather, constructive criticism. Build on the truths you hear and quit ignoring it - as if you'll be excused because you 'already made up your mind'...

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#431822 Apr 9, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I know for certain that what you speak about the Catholic faith is not truthful. Therefore one can conclude the Holy Spirit is not guiding you in the preaching department.
~~~~

SO YOU ARE SAYING THE HOLY SPIRIT CONTRADICTS HIMSELF...

IF YOU DO NOT SAY THE SAME THINGS GOD SAID... YOU ARE THE ONE THAT IS A LIAR..

YOUR CHURCH NOT ONLY IS SAYING THINGS GOD NEVER SAID ...YOU ARE DOING

THAT WHICH GOD FORBIDS.

AND PRIDE YOUR SELF IN IT.

Pro_16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Pro_18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.

\\

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#431823 Apr 9, 2013
who="Yankee Yahoo"
KayMarie, please, the Catholics WROTE the Holy Scriptures. For 300 years Christians had no Bible as we know it today, until THEY put it together. There is oral tradition, and there is written tradition. Oral tradition became Sacred Tradition, the traditions of God, who indeed likes incense, and ritual and all the trapping of holiness. He wants us to WORK at our faith, and that means more than just going to Church on Sunday. Written Tradition became the Bible, which THEY, the Catholics, combined and went to GREAT LENGTHS to put together, and during a time when they were still being persecuted, despite tolerance from the Roman state.
No, they don't worship Mary. They respect and honor her as the Mother of Jesus. No, they don't pray to the saints, they ASK for their prayers. No, they don't believe the dead are dead, but in Heaven with God praying for us to get through this sometimes awful and challenging life. And every ritual performed at mass is what the Jews were COMMANDED to do by God, and nowhere was that changed or altered. No, pagan elements were NOT introduced, but some pagan holidays were Christianize to respect the culture and honor the people, without compromising the the faith in any way. And no one fought against slavery, elevated women, fought against abortion (a SERIOUS problem in Roman times), and maintained marriage between a man and woman (against the pagans who thought otherwise for centuries) more so than the Catholic Church.
In fact, I knew a few Jews that became Catholic when they saw it was more Jewish than their own religion, and were shocked at how true to Levite priesthood it was.

..........

There was no CC until Constantine declared it, and made it a state religion. All of the N.T. was already written...as was the O.T. There was a group that compiled those books into what today we call the Bible. Whoever they were, they did a good job.

Rome was not Jewish (hated the Jews), and could not be successors to the Levites.

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#431824 Apr 9, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I have the utmost respect for the Holy Scriptures of the NT and the Church that gave it to us and told us it was Holy Scriptures. Its their interpretations that matter. Not yours or your husbands or the thousands of other self proclaimed authorities. Don't take that as an insult, but rather, constructive criticism. Build on the truths you hear and quit ignoring it - as if you'll be excused because you 'already made up your mind'...
WHAT I AM HEARING...IS THE SAME OLD SONG AND DANCE OVER AND OVER DAY AFTER DAY...
NAME CALLING AND INSULT ROLL OUT HERE IN THIS FORUM FROM YOU CATHOLIC CONTINUALLY...
NO SCRIPTURES ARE OFFERED...JUST DENYING AND NAME CALLING...
NO DEFENSE NO SUBSTANCE JUST THE SAME OLD RHETORIC ABOUT YOUR ONE TRUE APOSTATE CHURCH..
Clay

United States

#431825 Apr 9, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
~~~~
SO YOU ARE SAYING THE HOLY SPIRIT CONTRADICTS HIMSELF...
IF YOU DO NOT SAY THE SAME THINGS GOD SAID... YOU ARE THE ONE THAT IS A LIAR..
YOUR CHURCH NOT ONLY IS SAYING THINGS GOD NEVER SAID ...YOU ARE DOING
THAT WHICH GOD FORBIDS.
AND PRIDE YOUR SELF IN IT.
Pro_16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Pro_18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
\\
"you are saying the Holy Spirit contradicts Himself"

yawn. I just got done telling you that you speak untrue things about Catholics, then what do you go and do?

You guys are all proof that the Holy Spirit is not guiding you to scripture truths. You just confirmed it yourself. The Holy Spirit does not lie. Only one of yas can be the fortunate ones then. Right?

The Holy Spirit already spoketh on sacred scripture. You are not going to discover anything not revealed previously. The Apostles already revealed their teachings, sir. You do not teach the same as they did.
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#431826 Apr 9, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Yankee Yahoo"
..........
There was no CC until Constantine declared it, and made it a state religion. All of the N.T. was already written...as was the O.T. There was a group that compiled those books into what today we call the Bible. Whoever they were, they did a good job.
Rome was not Jewish (hated the Jews), and could not be successors to the Levites.
All of these statements were written BEFORE Constantine:

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished." Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline...one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul's name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church...But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

"[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,--in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,--and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God's priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).
Clay

United States

#431827 Apr 9, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
WHAT I AM HEARING...IS THE SAME OLD SONG AND DANCE OVER AND OVER DAY AFTER DAY...
NAME CALLING AND INSULT ROLL OUT HERE IN THIS FORUM FROM YOU CATHOLIC CONTINUALLY...
NO SCRIPTURES ARE OFFERED...JUST DENYING AND NAME CALLING...
NO DEFENSE NO SUBSTANCE JUST THE SAME OLD RHETORIC ABOUT YOUR ONE TRUE APOSTATE CHURCH..
You guys desperately want to get into a Bible verse warfare fight. Honestly, this seems to get your blood rushing, as you sling those passages at each other, as if you'd feel justified as you stand before God, because you saw verse chapter verse and you formed it to what you needed it to say.

The Catholic Church came before one line of the NT was written down. You can read some of the historical account in the Book of Acts. But not all of the details of the CC will be spelled out in Scripture. But all of the teachings are somehow seen in the 73 Books that make up the Bible.
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#431828 Apr 9, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
WHAT I AM HEARING...IS THE SAME OLD SONG AND DANCE OVER AND OVER DAY AFTER DAY...
NAME CALLING AND INSULT ROLL OUT HERE IN THIS FORUM FROM YOU CATHOLIC CONTINUALLY...
NO SCRIPTURES ARE OFFERED...JUST DENYING AND NAME CALLING...
NO DEFENSE NO SUBSTANCE JUST THE SAME OLD RHETORIC ABOUT YOUR ONE TRUE APOSTATE CHURCH..
Do you scream and holler when you speak to people in public or at your gatherings? Why must you constantly do it here?

How is it that on the one hand you accuse the Catholic Church of trying to deny salvation to protestants by claiming to be the one, true Church and on the other call us a pagan apostate church? If we are pagan, why do you care if we claim exclusivity?

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#431829 Apr 9, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Yankee Yahoo" OK Protestants, let's stop with the Catholic-bashing. While there may have been a legitimate reason to explode into separate churches during the time of Martin Luther, those days a long gone, and any reason or justification to remain separate now is very questionable. Were there many in the Church that were corrupt and unfaithful? Of course, always have been, and always will. Is that an excuse to leave it? No.
Undeniable facts. Jesus established one church. That's how God rolls, and always has. He did not make two tribes to be the priesthood, he made one, the Levites. There is only one priesthood, one moral authority, one God, one Church. All ancient records confirm this. The word "catholic" was used in the 1st Century, as was the Eucharist and everything else.
In Martin Luther's days, they didn't have the means to confirm much of this. So a lot of nonsense erupted that is proven untrue now. Modern evidence confirms more than ever that the Catholic Church, or at the very LEAST, the Orthodox Church, had it right.
What really irks me is that most Catholics are not Catholics, and many Protestants are more Catholic than Catholics. And yet, what irks me even more, is that far ... FAR more protestors are out there in front of Planned Parenthood, or at the Walk for Life, then evangelicals. Why is that?
And guess what? Even the Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft acknowledges that Protestants DO have something going, they have the Holy Spirit, and that is why Latin Americans are leaving the Catholics and going Protestant in great numbers. He admits this. A Catholic.
So, does that mean we should remain divided? Or try and unite the Holy Spirit and the One True Church again? More than ever, in this day in age, we must unite. That means putting aside your pride and your hubris. That means Catholics better stop saying they are proud to be Catholic, and start calling yourself Christians, as that is what you really are. And that means Protestant or Evangelicals need to stop with the misinformation and lies you keep spouting about your Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
**********
Hey, Yankee...You are right that all Christians need to get together. Jesus prayed that we would all be ONE. But I don't think we should gather under any existing banner. Wouldn't the 'folks' delight in being able to say that WE were right all along?
There is One Christ Jesus, and He must be first. I wouldn't fly any other banner.
There are some CC's who accept the Holy Spirit baptism.
KM
Well there is only one banner, Christ, that is true. And if they did delight in saying they were right all along, then they would not be very good Christians ... and all the more reason to reunite. Too many Catholics are outright heathens. We let Luther take the Church from us, we can take it back.:)
truth

Perth, Australia

#431830 Apr 9, 2013
your mouth is place where going in and out..your creator created already your body..
an en on in un
an in on
Your talk and speech is product of mind.
How you look see and know?
Did you see very well when they told you new is already there?
No no no nothing new.
some crowd place where is gathering for prayers are large group people..
place when you traveling ports station airport some crowd larg group people
music large crowd people
sport large crowd people whats so ever..now
where is that new what you introduce..nothing is new..nothing under sky is new..
truth

Perth, Australia

#431831 Apr 9, 2013
Spirit stay in human body..what you did know why they seek our spirit for further..i am going where you can't go..where..this civilization is been sustain many times..yes destructed too many times..yes..now
Did you know what your Master prepare?
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooo

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