Roman Catholic church only true churc...

Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

There are 683926 comments on the CBC News story from Jul 10, 2007, titled Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican. In it, CBC News reports that:

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CBC News.

Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#427636 Mar 14, 2013
(continued from above)

5. Christ taught that no earthly head of his spiritual body (the church) was possible, even though that earthly head was Christ himself 'in the flesh.' He said,'It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you'(John 16:7). If it was expedient for the true head not to remain on earth in the flesh, and if the presence of the Christ himself, in the flesh, would thwart the residence of the Holy Spirit in his spiritual body, how could any successor fulfill a need impossible to be met even by Christ 'in the flesh?'

6. No person in subsequent ages could meet the qualifications of a true apostle. Apostles were primarily 'witnesses'; and witnesses, by the very nature of things, cannot have successors (Acts 1:22). Moreover, that prime qualification was not waived, even for Judas' successor.

7. Basic requirements of the apostolic office disqualify any claimant of Peter's office. For example, the apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit to be able to 'remember' and faithfully report the words of Christ. See John 16:13-15; 14:26. What successor could possibly 'remember' anything that Jesus said? As to the heresy that the Spirit would operate independently of the word of Christ, it was struck down by Jesus himself who said of the Holy Spirit,'He shall not speak of himself'(John 16:13). The English Revised Version (1885) has 'He shall not speak FROM himself.'

8. Delegated authority is not transferable. In the very nature of plenary authority, it must originate in each new holder of it with the conveying authority. No ambassador ever named his successor. Overwhelming evidence to the effect that this principle was recognized as valid, even in the apostolic age, appears in the attempt of Simon the sorcerer to purchase the gift of God, not from Philip (who had it and was personally and more intimately known to Simon), but from Peter, one of the apostles who had conferred the gift on Philip.

9. Historically, the whole idea of a successor to Peter is fantastic in its long progression through the ages, exhibiting two popes on the throne at once, another refusing the office, and with Italians holding a virtual monopoly, and providing practically the whole list upon whom this distinction was said to be conferred by God (!). What have we here, another chosen people?

Many other Scriptural refutations to the great heresy of Peter's successor might be pointed out, but these are sufficient to allow the truth to appear in honest hearts.

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 53:1.--6 "MATT 10:27"

#427637 Mar 14, 2013
who="Robert Dye"
Whether I think any of that is tenable is immaterial, since it has nothing to do with demonstating that a verse is scriptural.
.
To your first point, I was being a bit silly. You seem to be operating on your own authority, which is what you accuse the pope of doing. Please forgive my silliness.
.
The word "pope" is not to be found in scripture, at least not in its meaning in Catholic usage as leader of the Church. Not there. Won't find it.
.
Now, back to the subject at hand. Sola Scriptura.
.
"Quickly I would justify it by the identical nature of its contents to the other gospels which all bring validity to each other. I would also judge their validity by the quotations and references other writers would reference back to the gospel writers."
Okay. So you would justify Matthew by comparing it to John, Mark, and Luke.
.
Now your task is to prove that THOSE texts are scripture, using SCRIPTURE ALONE.
.
"Thirdly,*I* have faith in a God that could give me the words he would have me to hear and faith that this God of creation could create a work that could be followed by anyone that picked it up and put the study of its teachings to use. I do NOT believe they would have to have a mediator between them and the Bible and their heavenly journey other than Jesus Christ Himself."
.
So, you are using your faith to demonstrate that those texts are scripture.
.
Is your faith something that is part of you, or does yor faith itself reside in the scripture?(I don't mean "Is is BASED on scripture?" I mean the object, your faith ... where is it? I would have said it is part of your spirit, or you soull, or your brain, or a combination of all three. I doubt you would hold there are 23 copies of your faith at the local Dollar Tree, and that I can procure three of "your faith" for $3.00
.
Assuming you mean something intrinsic to you, is that not external to scripture? It seems a violation of Sola Scriptura to appeal to your faith to demonstrate that a text is scriptural.
.
Looks like I may get short of characters. ayou ask if I believe that a mediator between humanity and the scriptures is necessary. Not really. I think we need to be very careful, and that authority to definitively interpret the scriptures must reside somewhere, but that does not mean that the scriptures do not communicate to each of us individually and directly, because in fact they can and do.
.
But that still does not prove that any text is scripture, and certainly not by Scripture Alone. That would be individual experience, and purely subjective.
.
So ... I think that leave us with showing that Mark, John, and Luke are scripture (and Thomas is not, I think) and doing this by scripture alone, with nothing else to help. No personal belief, no personal experience.
.
SCRIPTURE ALONE.
.
Can You?

__________

TRY THIS:

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

#427638 Mar 14, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
I still don't know what you meant by bringing up the book of Matthew. I'm willing to discuss this one too, but I just didn't understand where you were coming from. Please clarify your earlier question to me about Matthew.
It was a simple example. Since it is the firts book printed in the NT, I picked it. ANY book, OT or NT woukd do.
.
I did not pick Macabees, as that would dissolve into a discussion of the apocrypha, and that's NOT what we're talking about.
.
I did NOT pick Genesis, because you might say, but, that's Old Testament? Why didn't you pick something from the Christian scriptues?
.
Really, it does not seem to matter WHAT text you pick. It looks as though, from your later posts, that you are making an extra-scriptural appeal to your subjective faith and experience, rather than Sola Scriptura.
.
Of course, correct me if I have this wrong.
.
Rob
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#427639 Mar 14, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
Whether I think any of that is tenable is immaterial, since it has nothing to do with demonstating that a verse is scriptural.
.
To your first point, I was being a bit silly. You seem to be operating on your own authority, which is what you accuse the pope of doing. Please forgive my silliness.
.
The word "pope" is not to be found in scripture, at least not in its meaning in Catholic usage as leader of the Church. Not there. Won't find it.
.
Now, back to the subject at hand. Sola Scriptura.
.
"Quickly I would justify it by the identical nature of its contents to the other gospels which all bring validity to each other. I would also judge their validity by the quotations and references other writers would reference back to the gospel writers."
Okay. So you would justify Matthew by comparing it to John, Mark, and Luke.
.
Now your task is to prove that THOSE texts are scripture, using SCRIPTURE ALONE.
.
"Thirdly,*I* have faith in a God that could give me the words he would have me to hear and faith that this God of creation could create a work that could be followed by anyone that picked it up and put the study of its teachings to use. I do NOT believe they would have to have a mediator between them and the Bible and their heavenly journey other than Jesus Christ Himself."
.
So, you are using your faith to demonstrate that those texts are scripture.
.
Is your faith something that is part of you, or does yor faith itself reside in the scripture?(I don't mean "Is is BASED on scripture?" I mean the object, your faith ... where is it? I would have said it is part of your spirit, or you soull, or your brain, or a combination of all three. I doubt you would hold there are 23 copies of your faith at the local Dollar Tree, and that I can procure three of "your faith" for $3.00
.
Assuming you mean something intrinsic to you, is that not external to scripture? It seems a violation of Sola Scriptura to appeal to your faith to demonstrate that a text is scriptural.
.
Looks like I may get short of characters. ayou ask if I believe that a mediator between humanity and the scriptures is necessary. Not really. I think we need to be very careful, and that authority to definitively interpret the scriptures must reside somewhere, but that does not mean that the scriptures do not communicate to each of us individually and directly, because in fact they can and do.
.
But that still does not prove that any text is scripture, and certainly not by Scripture Alone. That would be individual experience, and purely subjective.
.
So ... I think that leave us with showing that Mark, John, and Luke are scripture (and Thomas is not, I think) and doing this by scripture alone, with nothing else to help. No personal belief, no personal experience.
.
SCRIPTURE ALONE.
.
Can You?
Not from "my own authority" as follows:

2 Timothy 3:15-17

15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Yes, my faith is based in scripture - "FAITH comes by hearing." I have faith that GOD CAN PRESERVE HIS WORD AND HAS PRESERVED HIS WORD. When divided properly, His Word does not have any contradictions. When divided improperly, and contradictions are created, it is the fault of man. "Study to show thyself approved" "rightly dividing the word of truth."

Were those last verses written to "Pope" Peter?
Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

#427640 Mar 14, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
~~~
IN REFERENCE TO SCRIPTURE
Jesus said
Joh 5:39 --> Search the -->scriptures;<--
--> SCRIPTURES<-- defined in Greek
G1124
&#947;&#961;&#945; &#966;&#951;&#769;
graphe&#772;
graf-ay'
From G1125; a document, that is, holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it):- scripture.
for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and
they are they which testify of me.<--
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

YOU ROMAN CATHOLICS HONOR YOU HOLY FATHERS AND CALL JESUS A LIAR..
Okay.
.
Now, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, that any of the verses you cite should be considered to be scripture.
.
Rob

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 53:1.--6 "MATT 10:27"

#427641 Mar 14, 2013
who="Free Mind"
Exactly. It's a Bible buffet, pick and chose what you want and leave the rest.
Jesus teaches (1) to love thy neighbor, and (2) to hate yourself and your entire family.
Thank you for loving me Oxbow, but I think it's OK to stop hating your wife and children now.
I wish a holy ghost would explain all the mysteries of the Universe to me.

__________

He does: The Greek word translated 'hate' in that verse means: TO LOVE LESS. We are to love GOD with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength (first commandment)...and everyone else LESS THAN we love God. To love anyone more than we love God, is to break the first commandment.

Loving Him first purifies our love for others,.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#427642 Mar 14, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay.
.
If I understand you correctly, you are appealing to your faith in the Holy Spirit that these texts are scripture, rather than staying in your framework of Scripture Alone.
.
Do I understand you correctly?
.
Rob
Not one or the other. Both.
Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

#427643 Mar 14, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Robert Dye"
Whether I think any of that is tenable is immaterial, since it has nothing to do with demonstating that a verse is
__________
TRY THIS:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Okay.
.
Now, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, demonstrate that 1Ti 2:5 should be considered scripture. Prove that it is, and do so using SCRIPTURE ALONE.
.
Can you?
.
Rob
marge

Leesburg, GA

#427644 Mar 14, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
The question at hand is whether or not Sola Scriptura is tenable.
.
Demonstrating which books are to be considered scripture is an essential task in any faith.
.
If you are going to hold that all our beliefs ought to be based on Scripture Alone, then you will have to demonstrate that a text is or is not scripture, using ONLY scripture.
.
I don't see how it can be done without using a circular argument, but if you can enlighten me otherwise, I would be delighted to see it.
.
Rob
John 14:26
But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative--that is, the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#427645 Mar 14, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
It was a simple example. Since it is the firts book printed in the NT, I picked it. ANY book, OT or NT woukd do.
.
I did not pick Macabees, as that would dissolve into a discussion of the apocrypha, and that's NOT what we're talking about.
.
I did NOT pick Genesis, because you might say, but, that's Old Testament? Why didn't you pick something from the Christian scriptues?
.
Really, it does not seem to matter WHAT text you pick. It looks as though, from your later posts, that you are making an extra-scriptural appeal to your subjective faith and experience, rather than Sola Scriptura.
.
Of course, correct me if I have this wrong.
.
Rob
I don't know the exact number but I'd guess there are hundreds of references in the NT to the OT, plus all of the OT prophesy is fulfilled in the NT. These two facts create credibility for both.
Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

#427646 Mar 14, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Not from "my own authority" as follows:
2 Timothy 3:15-17
.
Were those last verses written to "Pope" Peter?
That last part is a bit of trying to change the subject. We're not talking about papal sucession. We're talking about Sola Scriptura.
.
I see you are back to citing scripture as your source for whether a passage is scripture.(I *thought* you were going with subjective personal experience and faith, but perhaps you have changed your mind?)
.
So, now you are citing this:
.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
.
Okay.

NOW, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, prove that I ought to consider 2 Timothy authoritative (that is to say, "scripture.")
.
I am not saying I reject it. I'm saying thatyou have the task, if you are going to hold to Sola Scriptura, of proving, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, that your text is authoritative/scripture.
.
Rob

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 53:1.--6 "MATT 10:27"

#427647 Mar 14, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
~~~
IN REFERENCE TO SCRIPTURE
Jesus said
Joh 5:39 --> Search the -->scriptures;<--
--> SCRIPTURES<-- defined in Greek
G1124
&#947;&#961;&#945; &#966;&#951;&#769;
graphe&#772;
graf-ay'
From G1125; a document, that is, holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it):- scripture.
for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and
they are they which testify of me.<--
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honor from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?
YOU ROMAN CATHOLICS HONOR YOU HOLY FATHERS AND CALL JESUS A LIAR..
~~~

A person that does not believe the scriptures is considered an INFIDEL

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an -->infidel?<--

-->infidel<--DEFINED in GREEK

G571
&#945;&#787;&#769; &#960;&#953;&#963; &#964;&#959;&#962;
apistos
ap'-is-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G4103; (actively)

disbelieving, that is, without Christian faith

(specifically a heathen);

(passively) untrustworthy (person),

or incredible (thing):- that believeth not,

faithless,

incredible thing,

infidel, unbeliever (-ing).

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?

for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,

I will dwell in them, and

walk in them; and

I will be their God, and

they shall be my people.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and

be ye separate, saith the Lord, and

touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and

ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#427648 Mar 14, 2013
494 414
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus was Born of Mary ...But sired by the Holy Ghost...
The sperm that brought about Mary's conception was from God..
All else appears to have been natural gestation and birth...Nary was a physical instrument of God's righteousness...
She carried Jesus physically in her womb for the duration of her pregnancy...
and afterwards carried Him in her heart. Spiritually
We also should be Spiritually pregnant with Jesus in our hearts for the duration of our life.
CHRIST with in us is... OUR HOPE OF GLORY
So then...Jesus was born of a woman!!!! Glad o see you gaining knowledge...bit-at-a-time!!!!
Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

#427649 Mar 14, 2013
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
John 14:26
But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative--that is, the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.
Marge, if you want to give it a shot, please try, by all means.
.
Now, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, prove that John 14 should be recognized as authoritative/scripture.
.
Rob
Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

#427650 Mar 14, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know the exact number but I'd guess there are hundreds of references in the NT to the OT, plus all of the OT prophesy is fulfilled in the NT. These two facts create credibility for both.
Ah.
.
So, they are to be considered scripture/authoritative because they "agree with each other?"
.
(Careful. It's a bit of a trap.)
.
Rob
Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

#427651 Mar 14, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Not one or the other. Both.
So, "Scripture Alone," PLUS "subjective faith experience?"
.
That would appear to be a rejection of "Scripture Alone."
.
???
.
Rob
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#427652 Mar 14, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay.
.
Now, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, demonstrate that 1Ti 2:5 should be considered scripture. Prove that it is, and do so using SCRIPTURE ALONE.
.
Can you?
.
Rob
2 Pet. 1:21, 1 Thess. 4:15, 1 Cor. 2:3, John 17:8, Gal. 1:12, 2 Tim. 3:16 (scripture is the product of the breath of God), Psalm 33:6

The Scriptures (the prophetic word) were not of “any private interpretation,” meaning that they did not originate on their own, or in the minds of those who wrote them. Scripture did not come from “the will of man.” It is not the end result of human research or human investigation into the nature of things. Scripture is not the product of its writers’ own thinking. On the contrary,“holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit”(2 Peter 1:21). The word “moved” in the original Greek means “borne” or “brought.” Peter stated that the Holy Spirit, in essence, picked up the writers (the prophets) and “brought” them to the goal of His choosing. Thus, the Scriptures, although written by means of human instrumentality, were so superintended by God that the resulting words are His.

the Bible itself provides compelling evidence about the nature of its inspiration. Perhaps of most significance is the fact that neither Jesus nor any Bible writer ever called into question a single passage of Scripture. Jesus and the writers of Scripture believed in the truthfulness and historical reliability of even the most disputed parts of the Old Testament. Notice a few examples:

While speaking to the Pharisees in the region of Judea beyond the Jordan, Jesus confirmed His belief in the real existence of an original couple created during the Creation week (Matthew 19:4; Genesis 2:24).

In writing to the church at Corinth, Paul affirmed his belief in Adam as the first human (1 Corinthians 15:45). Then, in his first letter to Timothy, he attested to the fact that Eve was created after Adam (2:13; Genesis 2:7,21-25).

Paul regarded the serpent’s deception of Eve as a historical event (2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:13-14; Genesis 3).

Both Jesus and the apostle Peter believed that Noah was a real person, and that the global Flood was a historical event (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5; 3:6; Genesis 6-8).

Jesus and Peter also affirmed their belief in the historicity of Lot, and in the destruction of Sodom (Luke 17:28-32; 2 Peter 2:6-7; Genesis 19).

Paul attested to the Israelites’ crossing of the Red Sea, and affirmed his belief in their drinking water from a rock (1 Corinthians 10:1-4; Hebrews 11:29; Exodus 14), while Jesus confirmed His belief in the miraculous healing of the Israelites who fixed their eyes on the bronze snake set up by Moses in the desert (John 3:14; Numbers 21:4-9).

Finally, unlike many people today, including some of those who claim to believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, Jesus regarded the account of Jonah’s three days and nights in the belly of a great fish as a historical event (Matthew 12:39-40).

Numerous other examples such as these exist, and demonstrate the trustworthiness of Scripture. The Old Testament writers who came after Moses expressed total trust in the Pentateuch, as well as in each others’ writings. Furthermore, Jesus and the New Testament writers always viewed statements by each other and the Old Testament writers as being truthful, regardless of the subject matter.

Additionally, Jesus endorsed the entirety of the Old Testament at least a dozen times.

In short, when the scriptures speak, God speaks.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#427653 Mar 14, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>.
.
Apostolic Teaching?
Don't you mean verbal tradition?
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#427654 Mar 14, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
So, "Scripture Alone," PLUS "subjective faith experience?"
.
That would appear to be a rejection of "Scripture Alone."
.
???
.
Rob
No. Because scripture alone can bring the faith experience. The faith never would've happened without scripture alone, right?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#427655 Mar 14, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>.
.
Apostolic Teaching?
Considering Christianity only uses less than 6 of the original Apostles, your perception of "Apostolic Teaching" is limited, thus not exactly true in the language you put forth.

In other words, "Apostolic Teaching" would also be applied to Thomas and would be just as valid.

But it isn't in your eyes, because you allowed men to make this decision for you.

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