Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.
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403,001 - 403,020 of 532,660 Comments Last updated 21 min ago
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#418233
Jan 26, 2013
 
Cont-
6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature.“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”(Romans 11:33-34).
gotquestion.ca
truth

Perth, Australia

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#418234
Jan 26, 2013
 
is that correct
manipulators still try sell story in vain

this world not yet finish
but corupt lips try tell you deference
did they are correct save us..nooooooooooooooo

now
because of that
they are followers of what?
Who going save them?
truth

Perth, Australia

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#418235
Jan 26, 2013
 
hair
h=8 a=1 air
see
they talk how
psalm 8
o lord you are above in heaven=air

now
spirit alive
The Watcher

Clearlake, CA

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#418236
Jan 26, 2013
 

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The pope is the unquestioned leader of a large part of the earth's population.

But this is changing rapidly as we are able to communicate with each other without fear of repercussions from this powerful political entity that falsely calls itself a church.

The questioning of the church by early Christians eventually stopped.

And this is logical considering all of those who disagreed with the Roman version of Christianity were systematically tortured and murdered over the centuries to protect the so-called one true church! This continued until the fear of the church was so inculcated in the populace that no one dared to question it's insanity! Until now.

Now that all of us can speak out safely the Roman Catholic Church's days are numbered!
Clay

United States

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#418237
Jan 26, 2013
 
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
~~~
You say the above ...
But in principle you deny it..
If you believed that Jesus is
Fully Divine
Fully human.
Jesus and God are one.
Why do you take the conjecture of mere men instead the word of God?
You place the word of incorruptible men on the same level as the word made flesh .... Jesus Christ the son of God....
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,-->(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.,--
The Apostle Paul wrote about you pagans..
He wrote...concerning your kind ...in ...
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 --> And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God
into an image made like to corruptible man,<-- and to birds, and
four footed beasts, and creeping things.
What??? Are you siding with Ox?

Listen Confrint, and every other non Catholic on here, its time you guys face a certain truth. Sola Scripture; scripture alone, without an Earthly authority; Jesus Christ established a Bible for GG Ministry and not a Church ... is false false false.

So until you can prove sola scripure as valid, all other discussions mean nothing because you're using the Bible out of context to make your points.
You're using a false premises to make a 'truthful' statement.
Clay

United States

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#418238
Jan 26, 2013
 
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
~~~
Jesus did not die in order to establish a pagan religious society that
would edit his word to fit their own ungodly actions/purpose..
Would murder ( be guilty of the blood of believers for a period of 650 years,)
That would sodomize thousands of children over the centuries,
YET TO BE BOLD ENOUGH TO CLAIM THAT THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT
REPRESENT .
MAN YOU NEED A BRAIN TRANSFUSION . AND A HEART TRANSPLANT.
___
AS I WROTE IN MY FORMER POST ..
YOU HAVE NO FEAR OF GOD.
THE CHARACTERISTICS/TRACK RECORD.... OF YOUR RELIGIOUS FARCE ARE THE ATTRIBUTES OF THE DEVIL...
JESUS DESCRIBED THE DEVIL... IN ...
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:
____
THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH JESUS CAME TO EARTH
HE SAID
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly..
IN NO WAY HAS YOU CHURCH FOLLOWED THE PURPOSE OF JESUS...
IT HAS ....STOLEN ...KILLED AND DESTROYED...
If I were you ....I would be ashamed to speak out in defense of such an evil dynasty,..... that has attempted to usurp the dynasty of David.
YOUR defense of such an evil religious society ...is a revelation of what you would do ...GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. is it not?
If what you're saying is true (and we've proven you to be a compulsive exaggerator -that's a nice word for liar).
BUT, if what you're saying about the Church becoming Pagan and ungodly and losing their way is true!
Then Our Lord Jesus Christ is also a liar. Because He promised to be with them til the end.

Also, if what you're saying is true, then Jesus started a secret hidden church, and didn't reveal it til the printing of the Bible in 1450 AD. Thus paving the way for 42,000 future Christian sects.

So which one of you is right?
Clay

United States

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#418239
Jan 26, 2013
 
Oxbow wrote:
Clay...where are you???
070 065
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
Scripture upon scripture has been provided for you to show you're in error.
You provided some that show you're not in error.
That's the reality of sola scripture.
Apparently. each one of us are to determine what Our lords will was.
Why are you not answering my question??? Afraid of the truth????
Question. Your religion teaches that Christ is the Incarnate Son of God?????!!!!! Why do you not believe what your religion teaches???
Maybe - instead of playing word games for your personal kicks- you should unequivocally state what you believe God is and what Christ is.

If you really want to know what I think on this, then look up what the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches on it. I won't waver from them.
That is what true faith in Christ means. Trust in His infallible guidance on faith and morals from the only Church that existed in 33 AD, 100 AD, 300 AD, 600 AD .....

Since: Jan 08

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#418240
Jan 26, 2013
 

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Robert Dye wrote:
Oxbow wrote:
>Would someone be so kind as to show me the teaching in the following that Christ is God and God is Christ...
.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
>>> the Word was God.<<<<.
.
>>>>the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, <<<<<
.
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
.
The Word is quite clearly stated to be God, and quite clearly stated to br made flesh ("Incarnate"), and that the Word "dwelt among us."
.
There is no question this is Jesus, the Christ, the Incarnate Son of God.
.
Aka "God the Son."
.
Rob
.
so far, he, OXBOW, along with my grandson are two main clogs that UNITE us. several protestants tried to enlighten him to no avail, as well as some catholics.

the Bible tells us to just leave this kind of person alone after trying to reason with him several times.

he was a kook when he first came on this forum, and he will stay that way.

Since: Jan 08

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#418241
Jan 26, 2013
 

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Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
What??? Are you siding with Ox?
Listen Confrint, and every other non Catholic on here, its time you guys face a certain truth. Sola Scripture; scripture alone, without an Earthly authority; Jesus Christ established a Bible for GG Ministry and not a Church ... is false false false.
So until you can prove sola scripure as valid, all other discussions mean nothing because you're using the Bible out of context to make your points.
You're using a false premises to make a 'truthful' statement.
excuse me clay, but let me interject into this convdersation.

your church says that "sola scripture" is invalid, so lets see you and/or them PROVE IT!

Jesus tells us to live by of every Word that Proceeded out of His Mouth.
that is Scripture and your church has no Authority over jesus, It is supposed to be the other Way around, isnt it?

here is some marlakey(and it cant be called anything but that)to try and refute SS.

Passages misused in supporting Sola Scriptura

In the attempt to "prove" Sola Scriptura some passages are given a meaning they simply don't have.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.(2 Timothy 3:16)

This verse doesn't say anything about "only scripture."

THIS IS ABOUT AS STUPID AS STUPID CAN GET.LOL.

LOOK AT THE BEGINNING OF THAT bIBLE VERSE. IT SAYS [ALL].

SO JUST WHAT ELSE ARE CHRISTIAN SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW? IF NOT, THE WORD?

FOR IT IS WRITTEN; THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE [WORD] WAS GOD.

as for me, along with Abraham, who heard the Word and journeyed to a far of land, i am going to follow the Scriptures[Word] and some day enter into that land of Canaan, which is my final rest.

but people like you, clay, can mock all you wish concerning those who follow the [Word] completely, if that is what you desire.

there is nothing on this Earth that has been given, that sets equally with the Bible.NOTHING!!!

Since: Jan 08

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#418242
Jan 26, 2013
 

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Passages misused in supporting Sola Scriptura

In the attempt to "prove" Sola Scriptura some passages are given a meaning they simply don't have.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.(2 Timothy 3:16)

This verse doesn't say anything about "only scripture."

http://www.northforest.org/ProtestantErrors/S...

ONLY THE DEVIL TRIES TO BELITTLE THE WORD OF GOD. REMEMBER THAT CLAY

Since: Jan 08

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#418243
Jan 26, 2013
 
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe - instead of playing word games for your personal kicks- you should unequivocally state what you believe God is and what Christ is.
If you really want to know what I think on this, then look up what the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches on it. I won't waver from them.
That is what true faith in Christ means. Trust in His infallible guidance on faith and morals from the only Church that existed in 33 AD, 100 AD, 300 AD, 600 AD .....
lol.

If you really want to know what I think on this, then look up what the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches on it.

THAT IS LIKE SOME BROWBEATEN POOR EXCUSE FOR A HUSBAND TO SAY.

YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT I THINK? ASK MY WIFE!!!!

sorry to all wives, but as soon as I read his reply, that came to mind.lol.

but hey, dont worry about it clay, Dust Storm will come on and tell us what you think.
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

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#418244
Jan 26, 2013
 

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Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe - instead of playing word games for your personal kicks- you should unequivocally state what you believe God is and what Christ is.
If you really want to know what I think on this, then look up what the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches on it. I won't waver from them.
That is what true faith in Christ means. Trust in His infallible guidance on faith and morals from the only Church that existed in 33 AD, 100 AD, 300 AD, 600 AD .....
Clay, you probably know this already, but some may not. Oxbow has been playing games for quite some time now. We ran him off a few months ago and he slithered over to the 'what divides' board until they got sick of him and stopped replying. The best thing any of us can do is ignore his juvenile posts. He has no interest in meaningful conversation.
Pad

Rockford, IL

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#418245
Jan 26, 2013
 
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Clay, you probably know this already, but some may not. Oxbow has been playing games for quite some time now. We ran him off a few months ago and he slithered over to the 'what divides' board until they got sick of him and stopped replying. The best thing any of us can do is ignore his juvenile posts. He has no interest in meaningful conversation.
I tend to agree,he does not just state what he believes,and explains why,but keeps throwing what he questions about Catholic belief,trying to get some response who can figure it out?
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

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#418246
Jan 26, 2013
 
atemcowboy wrote:
Passages misused in supporting Sola Scriptura
In the attempt to "prove" Sola Scriptura some passages are given a meaning they simply don't have.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.(2 Timothy 3:16)
This verse doesn't say anything about "only scripture."
http://www.northforest.org/ProtestantErrors/S...
ONLY THE DEVIL TRIES TO BELITTLE THE WORD OF GOD. REMEMBER THAT CLAY
Nice picture of your grandson Preston.

2 Tim. 3:14 - Protestants usually use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God's word. But examining these texts disproves their claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before the Protestants' often quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and Protestants generally ignore this fact.

2 Tim. 3:15 - Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul's teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the New Testament.

2 Tim. 3:16 - this verse says that Scripture is "profitable" for every good work, but not exclusive. The word "profitable" is "ophelimos" in Greek. "Ophelimos" only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive. Protestants unbiblically argue that profitable means exclusive.

2 Tim. 3:16 - further, the verse "all Scripture" uses the words "pasa graphe" which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of "pasa graphe" would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use "sola Matthew," or "sola Mark," but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God's word. This, of course, is not true and even Protestants would agree. Also, "pasa graphe" cannot mean "all of Scripture" because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless Protestants argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.

2 Tim. 3:16 - also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which the Protestants removed from the Bible 1,500 years later.

2 Tim. 3:17 - Paul's reference to the "man of God" who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman. It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although Protestants use it to prove their case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful.

2 Tim. 3:17 - further, Paul's use of the word "complete" for every good work is "artios" which simply means the clergy is "suitable" or "fit." Also, artios does not describe the Scriptures, it describes the clergyman. So, Protestants cannot use this verse to argue the Scriptures are complete.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

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#418248
Jan 26, 2013
 
atemcowboy wrote:
<quoted text>excuse me clay, but let me interject into this convdersation.
your church says that "sola scripture" is invalid, so lets see you and/or them PROVE IT!
Jesus tells us to live by of every Word that Proceeded out of His Mouth.
that is Scripture and your church has no Authority over jesus, It is supposed to be the other Way around, isnt it?
here is some marlakey(and it cant be called anything but that)to try and refute SS.
Passages misused in supporting Sola Scriptura
In the attempt to "prove" Sola Scriptura some passages are given a meaning they simply don't have.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.(2 Timothy 3:16)
This verse doesn't say anything about "only scripture."
THIS IS ABOUT AS STUPID AS STUPID CAN GET.LOL.
LOOK AT THE BEGINNING OF THAT bIBLE VERSE. IT SAYS [ALL].
SO JUST WHAT ELSE ARE CHRISTIAN SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW? IF NOT, THE WORD?
FOR IT IS WRITTEN; THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE [WORD] WAS GOD.
as for me, along with Abraham, who heard the Word and journeyed to a far of land, i am going to follow the Scriptures[Word] and some day enter into that land of Canaan, which is my final rest.
but people like you, clay, can mock all you wish concerning those who follow the [Word] completely, if that is what you desire.
there is nothing on this Earth that has been given, that sets equally with the Bible.NOTHING!!!
"SO JUST WHAT ELSE ARE CHRISTIAN SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW? IF NOT, THE WORD?"

The problem with allowing anybody to read and interpret the bible on their own without guidance is obvoius when one sees people like Oxbow run around leading people astray.

You believe you are an authority on scripture. But if sola scriptura is your belief and therefore private interpretation, you have no right or authority to tell anyone else (who also testify that they have the same calling by God as you do), that their interpretation is wrong.
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

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#418249
Jan 26, 2013
 
atemcowboy wrote:
<quoted text>lol.
If you really want to know what I think on this, then look up what the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches on it.
THAT IS LIKE SOME BROWBEATEN POOR EXCUSE FOR A HUSBAND TO SAY.
YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT I THINK? ASK MY WIFE!!!!
sorry to all wives, but as soon as I read his reply, that came to mind.lol.
but hey, dont worry about it clay, Dust Storm will come on and tell us what you think.
Do you not believe you are an authority on scripture? Do people think they're browbeaten when they ask for your help with scripture?
Clay

United States

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#418250
Jan 26, 2013
 

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atemcowboy wrote:
<quoted text>excuse me clay, but let me interject into this convdersation.
your church says that "sola scripture" is invalid, so lets see you and/or them PROVE IT!
Jesus tells us to live by of every Word that Proceeded out of His Mouth.
that is Scripture and your church has no Authority over jesus, It is supposed to be the other Way around, isnt it?
here is some marlakey(and it cant be called anything but that)to try and refute SS.
Passages misused in supporting Sola Scriptura
In the attempt to "prove" Sola Scriptura some passages are given a meaning they simply don't have.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.(2 Timothy 3:16)
This verse doesn't say anything about "only scripture."
THIS IS ABOUT AS STUPID AS STUPID CAN GET.LOL.
LOOK AT THE BEGINNING OF THAT bIBLE VERSE. IT SAYS [ALL].
SO JUST WHAT ELSE ARE CHRISTIAN SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW? IF NOT, THE WORD?
FOR IT IS WRITTEN; THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE [WORD] WAS GOD.
as for me, along with Abraham, who heard the Word and journeyed to a far of land, i am going to follow the Scriptures[Word] and some day enter into that land of Canaan, which is my final rest.
but people like you, clay, can mock all you wish concerning those who follow the [Word] completely, if that is what you desire.
there is nothing on this Earth that has been given, that sets equally with the Bible.NOTHING!!!
No Preston, its on you guys to prove sola scripture. Protestants added this teaching a few hundred yrs ago. It wasn't taught prior in all of Christianity since 33 AD.
When Jesus said to "live by every word that proceeded from his mouth" this would include things not written down.
Pad

Rockford, IL

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#418251
Jan 26, 2013
 
ReginaM wrote:
The Audacity of Pope
I used to believe that the Protestants had a more humble, God-honoring approach, and that the Catholics had an indefensibly high view of the human element within the Church. Things like the succession of the apostolate, the authority of the Church, the so-called “infallibility” of the pope – all of this stuff seemed to me to form a borderline blasphemous package that vaunted and exalted mere human beings at the expense of Christ and His work.
Yet in time, although I saw my previous perspective as eminently understandable, it became clear that it had been an understandable misunderstanding; a misunderstanding that had the peculiar effect of causing me to see things upside down. What I came to recognize, in other words, was that the Catholic position was in actuality the much more humble of the two. Indeed, it was downright self-effacing. For the Catholic position, paradoxically, was that it is precisely because mere men can claim no genuine spiritual authority that the successors of the apostles could claim it; and, in particular, it is precisely because no man can possibly be infallible that the bishop of Rome had to be.
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/the-...
I read much of what your article here is part of,interesting,and you know under different circunstances of what has resulted in the formation of your Roman Catholicism,we all as Christians are deep down wanting Communion between all of like mind in Christ.

That has already been achieved in the Spirit,we cannot as sinful beings unite ourselves in the Spirit,without a transformation of our own ambitions and desires in Christ.

Jesus first also promised His Disciples:"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your a d v a t a g e that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper(Comforter) will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you."
JOHN 16:7.

But again Regina we have a dilemna which has been the main source of separation between all Christians in this physical realm.Paul the Apostle brings it out somewhat in this verse from Romans 7:"Who will free me from this life that is dominated by S I N and death? Thank God! The anser is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin."(Romans 7:25).

It takes T I M E for good fruit to cultivate in a believer,and that complicates the unity of the overall assembly of the righteous,in that we all face the same challenges in dealing with the flesh and the spirit within us all.

AND that has a great deal to do with the whole C h u r c h,every facet of it.

I have not been in a Protestant church that does not teach the gospel,the morals of life,the direction of the Holy Spirit and the confirmation of the Word of God in regards to the Guiding and direction of the Holy Spirit,so that is what unifies us all in the basic teachings of Scripture,and the work of the Spirit in the life of a believer.

The infallibility of the Word,is that Christ died,Christ Rose, and Christ will come again for His own.We all teach this,and some with more clarity than others.

Fruit does not magically appear but rather it is grown and cultivated over time. Fruit is how we measure spirituality.Not trying harder but cultivating the fruit of the Holy Spirit.Now that can be applied to the Corporate extent of the Body of Christ.It is first to the individual believer than it is corporately.Continued:

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#418252
Jan 26, 2013
 

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Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
"SO JUST WHAT ELSE ARE CHRISTIAN SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW? IF NOT, THE WORD?"
The problem with allowing anybody to read and interpret the bible on their own without guidance is obvoius when one sees people like Oxbow run around leading people astray.
You believe you are an authority on scripture. But if sola scriptura is your belief and therefore private interpretation, you have no right or authority to tell anyone else (who also testify that they have the same calling by God as you do), that their interpretation is wrong.
sorry, but you are really mistaken. the Bible is our ONLY authority, not me, nor anyone else.

however when I make a point(unlike clay) i reinforce my opine with what is written in the Bible.

then when a person disagees, they are disagreeeing with God, not me.

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#418253
Jan 26, 2013
 

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Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
No Preston, its on you guys to prove sola scripture. Protestants added this teaching a few hundred yrs ago. It wasn't taught prior in all of Christianity since 33 AD.
When Jesus said to "live by every word that proceeded from his mouth" this would include things not written down.
sorry, but I dont have the liability to disprove your false theology of [sola scripture] not being scriptual.

that statement is rediculous, to say the least that it isnt Scriptual.

the bottom line is this, how can you Clay, say that you have to lead your life by something that Jesus said 2,000 years ago, yet you dont even know what it is, since it wasnt written down.

see how rediculous that is to people with some knowledge and ability to THINK for themselves, unlike your response to oxbow, in which you basically said, yeah, i know what I think, let me look it up from a catholic apologist magazine, and I will tell you.

and so the bottom line is this clay et al, you risk your soul for something not written down and mock those of us who choose to listen to His Word and follow IT!

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