Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.
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“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#414959
Jan 12, 2013
 
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Aviela good friend
By what you write,(correct me if I am wrong), that Jehovah is outside of Creation, and that Jesus is the first part of Creation.( I am not clear on if you believe Jehovah and/or Jesus made/created the heavens and the earth.)
If this is the case, then is humanity made in the image of Jehovah, or Jesus, or both?
Neither, it is a silly myth.
MICHAEL

Hamilton, Canada

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#414960
Jan 12, 2013
 

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Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
While I certainly could understand how someone could look at us and think we're worshiping a statue. I mean, if I walked into a Catholic Church for the first time, that's probably what I would think too.
The responsible thing to do is ask them what they're doing.
All we Catholics would like is for people to hate us for what we actually believe, instead of what they THINK we believe.
If I walked into a catholic church and an old italian or German lady was there and I asked if they prayed TO! THE VIRGIN MARY they would say YES!

You have engrained in your mind an image of Jesus, Mary and some of the saints as to what they appear to you. If I cut a picture out of a magazine and said to you this is your father you would call me a liar, and if I showed you a picture of a short balding man with a hunchback and said to you look at my picture of Jesus you would call me a LIAR and blasphemer.

Its all engrained in your mind.....the church has brainwashed your thinking and the images of you believe, and in reality what doesn't really exist.
Aviela

Los Angeles, CA

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#414961
Jan 12, 2013
 
MICHAEL wrote:
<quoted text>
There are a bunch of us that are ex catholics or former catholics on here. Myself, FREE MIND, Jethro, NASL and one or two others.
Organized religion is the great divide or wedge in our world. Its too bad religion has created so much hatred. The hatred is witnessed everyday on this forum.
"Can't we just all get along"

~Rodney King~
Aviela

Los Angeles, CA

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#414962
Jan 12, 2013
 
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
Neither, it is a silly myth.
hello

Since: Jan 08

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#414963
Jan 12, 2013
 

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ReginaM wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, Preston!
Even Charles, who's no friend of the Catholics, blows those two off. Anyone who's got a clue does.
I thought you were going to post a pic of your son last night?
I did, but for some reason, my computer keeps deleting it.so here it is again.
4GVN

Cape Girardeau, MO

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#414964
Jan 12, 2013
 

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Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
The only thing that is wrong, 4gvn, is that you're offended by a statue of Mary.
A statue of Mary is in most (if not all) Catholic Churches because she is the Queen of the Church. Christ of course, is the King.
But the fact that statues, icons, and other beautiful depictions (I assume photographs of Saints too?) offend you, is the real issue. Because that is bizarre.
for example:
You're teaching people that God is jealous of a image of Mary holding the infant Jesus..
I would say you need to re think this illogical position before YOU offend God by attempting to dictate what makes Him jealous.
Why then is all of the emphasis on Mary? Why do you not have statues of Jesus in every yard? Think Clay. Driving through Catholic neighborhoods one would rightly assume that the emphasis is on Mary. That Mary is the most important person. That Mary is the objest of worship and devotion. WHY is this the message being portrayed? Why is there an abnormal amount of sinful problems within the Catholic Church. Why was there a sex abuse cover-up? If you can't trust the church with the truth about the sex abuse, why would you believe that you could trust them with other matters? Why are catholic priests dieing of aids at a rate of 4 times higher than the average public.(And they take VOWS of celibacy.)
ReginaM

Lakewood, NJ

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#414965
Jan 12, 2013
 
atemcowboy wrote:
<quoted text>I did, but for some reason, my computer keeps deleting it.so here it is again.
Good looking boy, he's cute! I wish him all the best, Preston. I'll bet Cathie's excited about going to China.
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#414966
Jan 12, 2013
 
Deuteronomy 6:4

King James Version (KJV)


4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord

CONT
ReginaM

Lakewood, NJ

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Jan 12, 2013
 

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As the "straw man" metaphor suggests, the counterfeit position attacked in a Straw Man argument is typically weaker than the opponent's actual position, just as a straw man is easier to defeat than a flesh-and-blood one. Of course, this is no accident, but is part of what makes the fallacy tempting to commit, especially to a desperate debater who is losing an argument. Thus, it is no surprise that arguers seldom misstate their opponent's position so as to make it stronger. Of course, if there is an obvious way to make a debating opponent's position stronger, then one is up against an incompetent debater. Debaters usually try to take the strongest position they can, so that any change is likely to be for the worse. However, attacking a logically stronger position than that taken by the opponent is a sign of strength, whereas attacking a straw man is a sign of weakness.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

Since: Dec 06

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#414968
Jan 12, 2013
 
Aviela wrote:
<quoted text> Hello Robert, and good morning to you. I must beging by saying thanks for being respectul and kind to me even though we think different:)
Well to answer your question according to the scriptures Jehovah doesn't have a beginning or end. He created Jesus. Jehovah and Jesus then created all things except Jehovah. He's always been. Jesus is Jehovah's first born his favorite out of all the angels. In the book of Hebrews it speaks how Jehovah feels about Jesus how he loves him, how Jesus is better than the angels Read Hebrews 1:5 here is one of the scriptures where Jehovah is expressing his love for Jesus his son.
Aviela good friend

I believe I understand you.

I was wondering, when you write Jehovah is without beginning or end, to what does this refer? Does that mean that Jehovah exists outside of time? If Jehovah is outside of time then is Jehovah outside of space as well? To my understanding the answer is yes. But I will respect your answer if it is expressed in a different way, or if there is another meaning....

I understand that JCWs believe that Jesus is an angel, and wisdom..., but I forget, there is a third aspect of Jesus which is not "trinitarian" which is fundamentally part of the whole beliefs on Jesus....Is this true?

But in my prior post I was trying to understand the relationship of Jehovah/Jesus/humanity, with respect to Creation....That is being created in God's Image....Is there a sort of progression of Jehovah made Jesus, and they together formed man into their image?

(I will have to wait for this answer. I am about to go to a wedding, which will be taking up the rest of the day for me. So I would appreciate a reply I could get to tomorrow....)
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#414969
Jan 12, 2013
 

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CONT:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!(Deuteronomy 6:4) We also know that the Bible gives attributes of deity to God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit of God. We also know that there are not three Godís, they are One.
Old Testament Passages
Isaiah 7:14-"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" (Immanuel literally means "God with us").
Isaiah 9:6-"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end...."
Jeremiah 23:5-6-"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Christ's name in Hebrew is YHWH Tsidkenu, Jehovah Our Righteousness.
Micah 5:2-"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Christ has always existed because He is not a created being; He is God Almighty who has existed from everlasting.
Malachi 3:1-2-"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap." God's temple is Christ's temple. Christ comes as an all-powerful judge.
Psalm 45:1, 6-7-"I speak of the things which I have made touching the king.... Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee...." The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."
Psalm 110:1-3-"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power...." The LORD (Jehovah) will subdue all Christ's enemies. Yet Christ's rod and Christ's power will subdue all enemies. Christ's rule and power are clearly equal to God's. See Psalm 2 where a similar theme is discussed: "Serve the LORD [Jehovah] with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way..." (vv. 11-12). Note how "the Son" is set poetically in parallel with "Jehovah."
CONT
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#414970
Jan 12, 2013
 

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CONT
New Testament Passages
Matthew 1:23-"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
John 1:1-3, 14-"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
"The late New Testament Greek scholar Colwell formulated a rule which clearly states that a definite predicate nominative (in this case theos meaning 'God') never takes an article when it precedes the verb ('was') as we find in John 1:1. It is therefore easy to see that no article is needed for theos (God), and to translate it 'a god' is both incorrect grammar and poor Greek, since theos is a predicate nominative of 'was' in the third sentence-clause of the verse and must refer back to the subject,'Word'(logos). Christ, then, if He is the Word "made flesh" (Jn. 1:14), can be no one else except God, unless the Greek text, and consequently God's Word, be denied." [2]
John 1:18-"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
John 20:27-28-"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
Romans 9:5-"...Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen" (NKJV).
Philippians 2:5-8-"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
"'Who was in the form of God' are his [the Apostle Paul's] words: and they are words than which no others could be chosen which would more explicitly or with more directness assert the deity of...Jesus Christ.... Let us remember that the phraseology which Paul here employs was the popular usage of his day, though first given general vogue by the Aristotelian philosophy: and that it was accordingly the most natural language for strongly asserting the deity of Christ which could suggest itself to him....'Form,' in a word, is equivalent to our phrase 'specific character.'... With God...the 'form' is that body of qualities which distinguish Him from all other spiritual beings, which constitute Him God, and without which He would not be God. What Paul asserts, then, when he says that Christ Jesus existed in the 'form of God,' is that He had all those characterizing qualities which make God God, the presence of which constitutes God, and in the absence of which God does not exist. He who is 'in the form of God' is God."
Colossians 1:15-16-"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible...."
CONT
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#414971
Jan 12, 2013
 

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CONT
When the Apostle Paul says that Christ is the firstborn over all creation, he does not mean that Christ is the first created being. For he goes on to explain that Jesus Christ created everything in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Jesus Christ could not create Himself. The idea among various cults that Christ is the first created being is an impossible absurdity.
Colossians 2:8-10-"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power."
1 Timothy 1:16-17-"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
1 Timothy 2:3-4-"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 3:16-"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
1 Timothy 6:14-16-"...the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
Titus 1:3-"But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour."
Titus 2:10-"...showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things."
Titus 2:13-"Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (NKJV).
Hebrews 1:1-3-"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."
Hebrews 1:8-"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Jude 25-"To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen."
Jesus Christ Clearly Taught His Own Divinity
Revelation 21:6-7-"And he [Jesus Christ] said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
John 8:57-59-"Then the Jews said to Him,'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them,'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.' Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple..." (NKJV).
John 5:17-26-"But Jesus answered them,'My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.' Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them,...'For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.... For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself'" (NKJV).
CONT
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#414972
Jan 12, 2013
 

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CONT

John 10:28-39-"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them,... If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand."
Mark 2:5-11-"When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?...[Jesus] said unto them, But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,(he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house" (cf. Lk. 5:20-24).
The scribes' theology was correct: "Who can forgive sins but God only?" Jesus didn't disagree with their conclusion; rather, through the miraculous healing He proved that He in fact was God and had the authority to forgive sins.
The Spirit-inspired writers of the New Testament applied Old Testament passages which specifically refer God-Jehovah to Jesus Christ; therefore, Jesus must be God-Jehovah.
Aviela

Los Angeles, CA

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#414973
Jan 12, 2013
 

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Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
It depends what verse you read.(and what you want to see of it)
Bottom line: you guys teach that God is jealous of a depiction of Mary holding His Son.
For that, you throw all reason and logic out the window.
There is NO reason to have any statues. If you believe that the Bible is God's word then you know there should not be any statues. Its not what I teach. Its what the Bible says.
Aviela

Los Angeles, CA

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#414974
Jan 12, 2013
 

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MICHAEL wrote:
<quoted text>
edited for space......
Think for a minute about the story you are talking about.
In our world we would never sacrifice our child over ourselves in such a scenario.
God sends his son down to die for our sins, and in order for this to happen he has to become a heretic in his own religion, piss off his church leaders SO BADLY that they want him dead. Scriptures claim that a small crowd determine his fate and they have a choice. JESUS or BARABAS. If the crowd used their own free will and screamed BARABAS instead, how would this whole scenario have ever panned out.
For the past 2000 years there has been controversy of who actually killed this man. The pope recently said the jews are not responsible for his death. Shouldn't we CLEARY know who is responsible for someone who claimed to be the son of God of who ordered his death?
Historians will tell you during this era there were many men who claimed to be the messiah, the son of God. How could so many others claim to have the same element of who they were. The son of God. Throughout history many beliefs that came long before christianity had trinitys, sacrificial meals, baptisms, concepts of heaven and hell and those that too claimed to offer eternal salvation if you believed in them. Did christianity plagurize most of the customs/traditions from man gods that lived a 1,000 years before?
makes no common sense....that a man comes along, claims he is the son of God, performs miracles, has customs/traditions and all of these were not UNIQUE to christianity or Jesus but practiced by others who lived and died centuries before.
makes no common sense..
All those answer are in the Bible Micheal. Don't take anything the pope says serious. You are a man of thinking skills. One day you will get your answers it will all make sense. Keep asking and you shall receive. Don't stop asking questions keep up the good work.
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#414975
Jan 12, 2013
 
AVIELA :I hope you will address what I posted I know it is long but worth the reading.
But I believe it disputes your claim that Jesus was created and not the creator.

I really don't think you have had many Bible study classes, you are only repeating why you were told to read from you JW Bible.

Preston knows what he is talking about he really does, even though we have knock heads he knows Gods word.
There is no hate in me for you, I spent the better part of 2 hours looking up these passages for you ,
and the commentaries for you.
The correct spell of Gods name has no vowels do not let the sun go down without seeking the truth.
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#414976
Jan 12, 2013
 
The Bible Ascribes Attributes to Jesus Christ, Which Can Only be Predicated of God

1. Jesus Christ is all-knowing (omniscient)

Matthew 12:25-"Jesus knew their thoughts."

Matthew 27:18-"For [Jesus] knew that for envy they had delivered Him."

Luke 6:8-"He knew their thoughts."

John 2:24-25-"But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."

John 21:17-"And [Peter] said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee."

Revelation 2:23-"All the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each of you according to your works" (NKJV).

2. Jesus Christ is all-powerful (omnipotent)

Ephesians 3:20-"Now unto him [Christ] that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us."

Philippians 3:20-21-"...the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Colossians 2:10-"Ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power."

Hebrews 1:3-"[Jesus Christ is] upholding all things by the word of his power."

Revelation 1:8-"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 2:26-27-"He who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the potter's vessels shall be broken to pieces'-as I also have received from My Father" (NKJV).

3. Jesus Christ is unchanging (immutable)

Hebrews 1:8-12-"But unto the Son he saith...Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

Hebrews 13:8-"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (NKJV). This passage disproves the idea that Jesus is a created being. For if Jesus was created, He was not the same yesterday. "Yesterday" (past) is contrasted with "forever" (future), and obviously refers to eternity past
ReginaM

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#414977
Jan 12, 2013
 

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Aviela wrote:
<quoted text> There is NO reason to have any statues. If you believe that the Bible is God's word then you know there should not be any statues. Its not what I teach. Its what the Bible says.
Actually, it's not what the Bible says.

"Catholics worship statues!" People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating Godís commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4Ė5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31).

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.

Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!

Continue reading at http://www.catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-w...
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#414978
Jan 12, 2013
 
4. Jesus Christ, as to his divine nature, is everywhere present (omnipresent)
Matthew 18:20-"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." At any given moment there are literally thousands upon thousands of Bible studies, prayer meetings and church services being conducted around the earth. Jesus Christ says that He is present at each gathering. Only God can be at thousands of different places at the same time.
Romans 8:10-"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness....[H]e that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." No created being, no matter how great, can dwell in the millions of Christians throughout the world; it is impossible. But it is not impossible for Jesus Christ who is God.
1 Corinthians 10:4-"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." Whenever believers partake of the Lord's Supper, Jesus Christ is spiritually present.
Revelation 2:1-"These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks." Jesus Christ is presented in Revelation as being present in the churches and being totally aware of each church's deeds in minute detail.
Revelation 3:20-"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Jesus Christ will personally fellowship with each repentant believer. This would be impossible if He were merely human, for there are millions of Christians spread over the whole globe.
5. Jesus Christ has eternal existence
Isaiah 9:6-"For unto us a child is born,...and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father...."
John 1:1-3-"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him...." Jesus Christ existed with God prior to creation.
John 8:58-"Jesus said to them,'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM'" (NKJV). Jesus certainly did not mean He existed as the first created being, because the Jews wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God.
Revelation 1:8-"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (cf. Rev. 22:13).

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