Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News 559,296
The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. Full Story
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

#413267 Jan 4, 2013
cont.

"Again,

(a) If the Bible is an objective source of information, and ...

(b) If it objectively teaches the Reformed Baptist Evangelical Christian faith, then ...

(c) The Reformed Baptist Evangelical faith should be the consistent result from any Sola Scriptura reading of the Bible.

Therefore, let's assume that St. Athanasius and Martin Luther are "historical flukes." :-) Let's say that, for whatever reason, they failed to be faithful to Sola Scriptura. In that case, it still follows that ...

(a) If the Bible presents us with an objective body of doctrine, and ...

(b) If that objective body of doctrine can be read and correctly understood by anyone who adheres to the principle of Sola Scriptura, and ...

(c) If orthdox Christians throughout history have always rejected the "man-made traditions" of Catholicism and "remained faithful" to the Apostlic faith as it is "contained solely in the pages of Scripture," then ....

It necessarily follows, Mr. White, that you must be able to point to an ancient "orthodox Christian." ...That is to say, someone who achieved the same result from reading the Bible as you (i.e. the Reformed Baptist Evangelical faith).

Otherwise, you have no objective standard for showing that your interpretation of Scripture is correct. Now, once again, how is my reasoning flawed?:-)

If "X" = Reformed Baptist Evangelicalism,....

And if you say that the Bible objectively teaches "X," ...

And if the Bible does indeed objectively teach "X," ....

Then we must have numerous examples of ancient "orthodox Christians" saying that the Bible teaches "X" too.

Where is the flaw in that, Mr. White?:-)

Yet, if we lack even a single example of an ancient Christian claiming that the Bible teaches "X" (i.e., Reformed Baptist Evangelicalism), then ...

(1) Either the Bible was not properly understood until you Reformed Baptists came along, or ...

(2) The Bible doesn't teach "X" at all. ;-)

So, if (2) is correct, your position is undone; and if (1) is correct, then Sola Scriptura is still disproven as a practical principle, since centuries of committed, Sola Scriptura Christians had the Bible in their possession but failed to read it correctly.

So, you only have one choice, Mr. White. If Sola Scriptura is true; and if your interpretation of the Bible is the objective message presented by the written text, then you must point to an ancient Christian who is unquestionably "orthodox" in your eyes (i.e., one who would be your co-religious today).

Now, I seriously doubt that you would have difficulty identifying such a person in the 17th or 18th century. I'm sure you could find an "orthodox Christian" from that time most easily. And the same goes for today. I doubt anyone would seriously dispute that Jason Engwer is (even remotely) your co-religious. So, what about your co-religious in the ancient Church, Mr. White? Where are they? Using the same standards as those cited above, can you name an "orthodox Christian" from ancient times or not? And, if not, why not?:-) Didn't they possess the Bible? Didn't some of them (according to your view) adhere to Sola Scriptura and despise the "human traditions" of Rome?:-)

Well, if so, where are they? Where were they when St. Athanasius supposedly stood alone in defending the Deity of Christ?:-) Where were they when Pope Innocent tried to include the "Apocrypha" in the Bible? Where were they when the Council of Ephesus proclaimed Mary to be the "Mother of God," or when St. Athanasius was teaching the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and the Baptism of infants? Did "orthodox Christians" have nothing to say???:-)"

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num24.htm
guest

United States

#413268 Jan 4, 2013
Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, actually, no.
.
It said "New wine."
.
Even when Welch's i troduced their product, they didn't call it "Juice."
.
Its original marketed name was "Welch's Grape Wine."
.
Rob
-
oh, please!
-
a person is not called a "wino" because they drink "grape juice"
-
they are called a "wino" because they are a drunk - and you can't get drunk on grape juice.
-
Same-same: It's called wine because it has been fermented and has alcohol content - at that point in time it is no longer "grape juice".
-
Now we have no clue as to the alcohol content of Jesus' "new WINE" but, we know it WAS wine and not "grape juice". Jesus could do it in an instant. It takes grapes and yeasts much longer as the fermentation process takes time.
-
Of course, Catholics think they can re-write the Bible and God will accept it. Never mind that they are, in essence, calling God a liar when they do that. yada, yada ... "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven ..."
-
...forgetting that they "THE CATHOLICS" have bound upon earth: The Inquisition; Torture of 'Heretics'; and The Sheltering of Pedophiles (at the "supposedly" Most Holy piece of real estate on the planet.
-
wow! heaven must be a fine place (for Catholics) if that is the case!
-
The Catholic Church is disgusting and full of evil. The occasional 'good deed' cannot cover up its evil history. It is Pagan through and through. Everywhere you look in the Catholic Church, there are rites and rituals borrowed from Paganism.
-
And Catholics call it ... "Most Holy"! Nothing can be further from the truth.
-
If it's Pagan, it's from Satan - and after that, you are simply arguing semantics.
-
-
How very sad that Catholics think they can call God a liar, and that it is A-OK with God ..."whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven ..." blah, blah, blah ...
-
sickening!
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#413269 Jan 4, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll tell you one thing: I never came across people like you and Free Mind - who are so oddly obsessed with another group of people. Its very weird.
I could never imagine going on a Muslim themed website and posting unfavorable things about them...12-15 times per day!!
And 3/4 of your posts are about child sexual abuse too! Another very bizarre angle on that.
Eh, you aint Catholic...so what? Nobodies forcing you to go to Confession. I don't see the rationale of trying to drag as many people away from the Church as possible. Im guessing you're very insecure about the path you've chosen and somehow need to justify this path by bashing the Church to which you once belonged...hmmm


I would be very concerned and very upset if my church bank was involved with money laundering (for the second known time in 25 years)

I know! its not the vaticans fault. It NEVER is. Its always someone elses fault. What is the purpose of the pope if he is never responsible for ANYTHING.

http://rt.com/news/vatican-mafia-laundering-m...





“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#413270 Jan 4, 2013
Aviela wrote:
<quoted text> May I ask what is the real church?
The REAL Church is invisible. It is made up of those truly Born Again individuals who have accepted Jesus' sacrifice for them. He said that without being born again, one cannot 'see' the Kingdom of God. One cannot 'join' it by shaking a hand, or being received into a denominational group.

The Lord knows His own, and there are some in many different groups. That is what makes it invisible. No one denominational 'church' can lay claim to His church.

He doesn't make it hard. He paid our debt for us, and allows us to choose to answer His call.

Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#413271 Jan 4, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll tell you one thing: I never came across people like you and Free Mind - who are so oddly obsessed with another group of people. Its very weird.
I could never imagine going on a Muslim themed website and posting unfavorable things about them...12-15 times per day!!
And 3/4 of your posts are about child sexual abuse too! Another very bizarre angle on that.
Eh, you aint Catholic...so what? Nobodies forcing you to go to Confession. I don't see the rationale of trying to drag as many people away from the Church as possible. Im guessing you're very insecure about the path you've chosen and somehow need to justify this path by bashing the Church to which you once belonged...hmmm
Get up to speed Clay!

Were talking about WINE today......Come ON!

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

#413272 Jan 4, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
No I did not know about a money laundering scandal. My guess is its another 'story' you uncovered on that internet thingy. lol
And pleas cite a post where I claimed to 'know everything there is to know about my church'.
That's ridiculous.
That was big news just a little while ago. Where have you Been?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#413273 Jan 4, 2013
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
NASL
So what you are saying is that; to know your own will is to know the Will of Self, and this is the kingdom of God.
Why don't you believe in sin?
So I will just recopy what I wrote on the nature of the human will, which you just skipped over..., as usual(sigh)namely that it is appetitive in nature due to desire.
"One's own will tends to follow its human nature, thus becomes trapped in its own passions of the body, as well as its intellectual affinites. This creates "whirlpools", that tend to move the will towards itself, and in its own desires, namely concupiscence, and disordered passions....
It is for this reason that the "will" is appetitive because of desire(though as you write, it can be motivated by fear...,i.e. mainly fear of loss, or fear of loss of desire, and intellect). I think it has to do with the fear of loss of identity....That one becomes just another face in the crowd. Or, in this case fear of loss of one's identity in God.
Free-will comes into play when the will is at liberty to choose the good over the bad(the light over the dark). There is great difficulty in "recollection", that is summing up the forces which the will desires, or to even realize them. It is more often than not we think we are strong; when we are weak, and weak; when we are strong.(This is the"whirlpool" effect) in the soul, to which we seek "liberty"....free-wi ll."
By the way, this "whirlpool" effect is more commonly known as "Incurvitus in se"....(Turned or curved in on oneself)....
I didn't skip over this the last time, I just found it to be lacking. Please supply the citation for this hypothesis of yours.

You really don't think "free will" exists, huh? Because, if I am understanding your "logic" above, free will is determined by "God", and not by man, thus we don't have any free will to make those choices we do, only "God" makes them.

I disagree.
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

#413275 Jan 4, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
The REAL Church is invisible. It is made up of those truly Born Again individuals who have accepted Jesus' sacrifice for them. He said that without being born again, one cannot 'see' the Kingdom of God. One cannot 'join' it by shaking a hand, or being received into a denominational group.
The Lord knows His own, and there are some in many different groups. That is what makes it invisible. No one denominational 'church' can lay claim to His church.
He doesn't make it hard. He paid our debt for us, and allows us to choose to answer His call.
The Church is not an invisible body of believers loosely connected by their belief in sola scriptura.

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church'(not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
Clay

Chicago, IL

#413276 Jan 4, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
The REAL Church is invisible. It is made up of those truly Born Again individuals who have accepted Jesus' sacrifice for them. He said that without being born again, one cannot 'see' the Kingdom of God. One cannot 'join' it by shaking a hand, or being received into a denominational group.
The Lord knows His own, and there are some in many different groups. That is what makes it invisible. No one denominational 'church' can lay claim to His church.
He doesn't make it hard. He paid our debt for us, and allows us to choose to answer His call.
"For many will come in my name.. "

Confrint, Our Lord never speaks of an invisible church that he's establishing.
Clay

Chicago, IL

#413277 Jan 4, 2013
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
I would be very concerned and very upset if my church bank was involved with money laundering (for the second known time in 25 years)
I know! its not the vaticans fault. It NEVER is. Its always someone elses fault. What is the purpose of the pope if he is never responsible for ANYTHING.
http://rt.com/news/vatican-mafia-laundering-m...
Oh no Miguel, I'm never concerned with the 'news stories' you conjure up.
You're old and just discovering the internet. I don't read radical ideological websites for my news anyway.
Do you really think you're noble for doing this?

It ain't news. Its not breaking. Its not shocking.

You should really get a life.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#413278 Jan 4, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I know you hate the Church. And that is first and foremost on your mind whenever you post.
I think you are reading way to much into what FM has written.

I honestly think he doesn't "hate" anyone or anything.

"Hate" is a strong word to use. I'd be more inclined to say that FM "doesn't care for" or maybe even "dislikes" the so-called, undefined "Church". But "hate" - I doubt it.

Hate is a characteristic of those who have no control over their life, which if involved with "hate", chaos ensues.

These are the types of attitudes you commonly see with so-called "Christians" - always taking the extreme, when they have been show that their "extremes" are unfounded.

Can you give some sort of correlation of FM's "hate" to other "haters".

Don't hate - appreciate!
Clay

Chicago, IL

#413279 Jan 4, 2013
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
-
oh, please!
-
a person is not called a "wino" because they drink "grape juice"
-
they are called a "wino" because they are a drunk - and you can't get drunk on grape juice.
-
Same-same: It's called wine because it has been fermented and has alcohol content - at that point in time it is no longer "grape juice".
-
Now we have no clue as to the alcohol content of Jesus' "new WINE" but, we know it WAS wine and not "grape juice". Jesus could do it in an instant. It takes grapes and yeasts much longer as the fermentation process takes time.
-
Of course, Catholics think they can re-write the Bible and God will accept it. Never mind that they are, in essence, calling God a liar when they do that. yada, yada ... "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven ..."
-
...forgetting that they "THE CATHOLICS" have bound upon earth: The Inquisition; Torture of 'Heretics'; and The Sheltering of Pedophiles (at the "supposedly" Most Holy piece of real estate on the planet.
-
wow! heaven must be a fine place (for Catholics) if that is the case!
-
The Catholic Church is disgusting and full of evil. The occasional 'good deed' cannot cover up its evil history. It is Pagan through and through. Everywhere you look in the Catholic Church, there are rites and rituals borrowed from Paganism.
-
And Catholics call it ... "Most Holy"! Nothing can be further from the truth.
-
If it's Pagan, it's from Satan - and after that, you are simply arguing semantics.
-
-
How very sad that Catholics think they can call God a liar, and that it is A-OK with God ..."whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven ..." blah, blah, blah ...
-
sickening!
1. Don't tell us how to read our Bible.

2. How on Earth are we Pagan?

3. You gots way to much hate in you today.

4. Inquisition Crusades Inquisition Crusades Pedophiles Pedophiles. Did you do the responsible thing and research any of that yet? Nope

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#413280 Jan 4, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
The REAL Church is invisible. It is made up of those truly Born Again individuals who have accepted Jesus' sacrifice for them. He said that without being born again, one cannot 'see' the Kingdom of God. One cannot 'join' it by shaking a hand, or being received into a denominational group.
The Lord knows His own, and there are some in many different groups. That is what makes it invisible. No one denominational 'church' can lay claim to His church.
He doesn't make it hard. He paid our debt for us, and allows us to choose to answer His call.
Only made up by those certain individuals?

Citation please, because I know the Catholics will disagree with you.

Do you believe I am part of this so-called "Church"? Why not? If not, please post your citation that designates what you say is accurate.

Thanks!
7th Day Catholic Rocks

Poplar Bluff, MO

#413281 Jan 4, 2013
Yes, Catholics do practice a form of idolatry, in violation of God’s command. The best way to reach our Catholic friends with the gospel of grace is to pray that the Holy Spirit will draw them and that they will respond to the Spirit’s leading. Their eyes and hearts are blinded by the false teaching they are continually hearing, and, until they begin to seek the truth, we must leave it in God’s capable hands. As we pray, we must keep loving them and trust that God will prepare the soil of their hearts (Luke 8:11-15). Never give up hope; the Holy Spirit does miracles every day.
7th Day Catholic Rocks

Poplar Bluff, MO

#413282 Jan 4, 2013
Question: "Do Catholics worship idols / practice idolatry?"

Answer: Sadly, our Catholic friends and family members have been indoctrinated to believe that the use of statues, relics, and other articles is acceptable and even necessary for worship. They have been taught by the Roman Catholic Church that the images and icons used in the church are not actually “worshiped” but are simply “visual aids” to worship.

The Catholic Church long ago began making allowances for the idolatrous use of images when they altered the Ten Commandments. Below is a list of the biblical commands given to Moses by God, based on Exodus 20:1-17:

The Ten Commandments (paraphrased):

1. You shall have no other gods but Me.
2. You shall not make any graven images.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
5. Honor your mother and father.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Now, here is the Catholic version of the Ten Commandments (paraphrased):

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods beside Me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

The first thing you might notice is that the second commandment has been eliminated in the Catholic version and, to make up the difference and still have ten commandments, the tenth command (the one about coveting) is split into two parts. This was done intentionally to cover the fact that the use of graven images is expressly forbidden in Scripture.

There are good reasons for not using images in worship. First of all, the use of physical images to “aid” worship violates the command to worship God “in spirit and in truth”(John 4:23-24). Also, no one knows what God looks like, and John 1:18 is clear concerning this truth:“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” And, because God is Spirit (John 4:24a), it is irreverent to delineate Him as an iconic representation. No one alive knows what Jesus Christ looked like in the flesh, and, since there were no cameras when He walked the earth, the only description of His appearance is found in Isaiah 53:2-3, which says that He had “no stately form or majesty.”

The lack of a physical description of Christ has not stopped the Catholic Church from depicting Him. Throughout Catholic churches, institutions, convents, monasteries, and every other Catholic-affiliated building and shrine, there are paintings of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Mary, Joseph, and a myriad of canonized saints. There are statues in abundance; there are relics, such as bone fragments, said to have belonged to certain saints. Some shrines even contain pieces of wood purported to be part of Jesus’ cross. All of these things are held to be sacred objects worthy of high regard. The idolatry is rampant and fairly obvious to non-Catholics, yet Catholics do not believe they are committing idolatry. They have been cleverly taught to believe that they do not worship these idols; they simply “venerate” them. The problem is that “veneration” still gives honor and reverence to something and/or someone other than God; therefore, veneration is idolatry.

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#413283 Jan 4, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
We've never gone "through" it. The problem you have is that you want us to believe there were sola scriptura evangelicals after the completion of the bible, but you've never produced one shred of evidence. Here's your chance.
Numerous times Jesus said that certain things happened to fulfill prophecy IN THE SCRIPTURES. He walked the Emmaus Road with two of His followers, and showed them how that His death had fulfilled the scriptures, and John further said,'for as yet they knew not the scriptures.'

Peter said,'study the SCRIPTURES'.

Jesus said, "You do ERR, NOT KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES." Check out the times that He uses the scripture for teaching. When it was His turn to read in the temple, He read Isaiah's "the spirit of the Lord is upon Me, for He has anointed Me..." Then He explained that that prophecy was about Himself.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES,
Act 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that THEY RECEIVED THE WORD with all readiness of mind, and SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,(TO SEE) whether those things (Paul taught) were so.

The proof is all over the place...

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

#413284 Jan 4, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Only made up by those certain individuals?
Citation please, because I know the Catholics will disagree with you.
Do you believe I am part of this so-called "Church"? Why not? If not, please post your citation that designates what you say is accurate.
Thanks!
I cannot speak for you. Have you had an experience with Jesus, and believe that He has paid your debt...are you 'born again'?

Yes, the church is made up only of such individuals. Jesus said that the WORK of God is to believe on the One Whom God sent. Jesus said, "He that BELIEVES and is baptized, shall be saved. He that BELIEVES NOT shall be damned. Read the parable of the sower. Jesus said that the seed planted was the Word of God (scripture).

It is the living Word of God IN US (Col.'Christ IN YOU is your hope of glory.')

And there is more...
Aviela

Los Angeles, CA

#413285 Jan 4, 2013
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
You must be a protestant. Catholics believe Jesus never had siblings. They were all cousins. Sorry for the bad news.
Over centuries MILLIONS of people from far away lands never heard of Jesus, are they going to hell because of that?
Its all FEARFUL nonsense.....
Jesus had sibblings. And no we don't teach that people are going to burn forever in hell. The word hell comes from the word Hades it was the common grave of old where they would dump the dead bodies and burn them. Somewhere along the line when the apostacy took over in the churches they scared people to join their churches or else they would fry and toast in hell forever and ever. www.jw.org

“physics is your friend”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#413286 Jan 4, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
"For many will come in my name.. "
Confrint, Our Lord never speaks of an invisible church that he's establishing.
The N.T.also doesn't say anything about praying to a host of"saints", nor about a guy in a funny hat being"infallible", the Catholic Church has been turned by Satan, into a gang of idol worshipers.Clay is in denial,a lot of Catholics are, it seems.The Catholic Church is a powerful political force, as well.The Catholics have abandoned Jesus Christ, for a pope.A man.Yes, Catholic charities are a good thing.But it stops there.The number of pedophile cases against the Catholic priests is staggering, but seems acceptable to the"sheep".Clay, I'll not bandy words with you, the Catholic Church and it's defenders are an abomination.I'll say goodbye to this forum with those words, it doesn't make any sense to argue with cultists.
Aviela

Los Angeles, CA

#413287 Jan 4, 2013
The word hell is trown out there like tic tacs to influence people to join their churches. Its a fear tactic. The opposite of life is death. Satan told Eve she would not die if she ate the fruit.She ate the fruit, she died and here we are thousands of years later and people still believe the ( Satan's lie) that you don't really die that you float around scaring family members at night like Casper the friendly ghost. That you are alive being burned forever in hell. No when you die you are DEAD. Ecclesiates 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the rememberence of them has been forgotten.

How can you suffer in hell if you are unconscious? Think about.

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