Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News 548,870
The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. Full Story

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#407178 Dec 5, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Learning from whom? If each person has their individual truth then there can never be unity. If we seek a watered down grace and the gospel of do nothing where suffering is but a faint concept then why do good? Why Suffer? All you have to do is believe and whoosh its all over. Hard to compete with the gospel of anything goes.
Purging is the final act of sanctification of suffering. They say that it was all done and absolutely nothing is required of you. Sin just disappears and Christ made a sacrifice for never ending sins. However the bible doesnt say that. The traditions engrained by Luther, Calvin and Zwingli and their continued variations do.
Most and every Protestant on this thread has no idea what the Church teaches, nor what the council of Trent said nor do they care. Paul Never, Not once Ever! Uses Faith Alone together. HOwever James does when he says, "NOT by faith alone."
Colossians 1:24:
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church”
http://www.catholicintl.com/index.php/protest...
http://www.catholicbible101.com/whywesuffer.h...
Dust Storm
Peace

I was using language a non-Catholic would understand....

I mean what is the point of using a "foreign" language/concept unless to communicate?

So to the Catholic I would say Purgative/Illuminative/Unitive ..., which are state of the soul on its journey....

Pilgrims Progress, by John Bunyon to the non-Catholic would consider the soul on its journey as well....

There are a lot of similarities....

I like that Colossions 1:24 verse....It really shows that we need to participate in our sufferings toward the Church....

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

#407179 Dec 5, 2012
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>I like that Colossions 1:24 verse....It really shows that we need to participate in our sufferings toward the Church....
I like:

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

It shows that the bible was written by men to control other men. They didn't want fathers to get a virgin bride price for soiled goods.
guest

United States

#407180 Dec 5, 2012
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
You posted a cult link this morning falsely accusing the Catholic Church of removing parts of the ten Commandments. Then, LTM bought into it. I proved the Catholic Bible has the same amount as yours. I showed the catechism stating the commandments how they were given, removing nothing. I testified that I learned the Commandments in Catholic grade school exactly like the book of Exodus shows... Thus you are now guilty of violating the 9th commandment and creating a victim in LTM.
How can you possibly look Christ in the eye someday?
-
http://www.catholicbible101.com/thetencommand...
-
Funny how this CATHOLIC site has shown the differences and made the point of telling us that THEIR 10 Commandments are 2000 years old, compared to the PROTESTANT 10 Commandments which are only 500 years old.
-
Only thing is - that in suspending logic, the site administrator FORGETS that The HEBREW 10 Commandments written in about 1512 B.C.E.
and which, incidentally, match the Protestant 10 Commandments. Since the Hebrew 10 Commandments is where we get them in the first place, I'll agree with the Hebrew 10 Commandments.
-
-
Now, Clay, you have borne false witness against me, by accusing me of violating the 9th commandment, and according to your Catholic Commandments as printed on this web site, that would be:

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
-
Now, I never! First of all, my neighbors wife is really not my type! and second the reason she's not my type - is I prefer the company of a man.
-
Furthermore: as per your question, I ask the same of your church members -- and ... you might well ask your church hierarchy the same question.
Clay: "How can you possibly look Christ in the eye someday?"
-
I won't even go into the second commandment. You are gonna do what you wanna do, regardless. Graven images are all over your churches and forget the Vatican and the Pagan Sun symbols. Forget the symbols of Mary with stars and snakes under her feet .. and that's just a sampling.
-
But, look at THESE commandments while considering the Pedophile priests and those (church hierarchy, all the way to the Pope) who covered up for them.
-
7. You shall not commit adultery
WHAT? do Catholic Priests think it is NOT adultery to rape a child?
-
9. You shall not bear false witness
they rape children and then LIE about raping children?
-
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
and someone should tell them they should not covet their parish members' children.
-
I despise the Catholic Church for the lies she has told for 2000 years.
-
When I was Catholic, I desperately wanted to visit the Vatican. NOW even the *thought* of stepping foot on the property makes me physically ill.
Dust Storm

Minneapolis, MN

#407181 Dec 5, 2012
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Dust Storm
Peace
I was using language a non-Catholic would understand....
I mean what is the point of using a "foreign" language/concept unless to communicate?
So to the Catholic I would say Purgative/Illuminative/Unitive ..., which are state of the soul on its journey....
Pilgrims Progress, by John Bunyon to the non-Catholic would consider the soul on its journey as well....
There are a lot of similarities....
I like that Colossions 1:24 verse....It really shows that we need to participate in our sufferings toward the Church....
Ok, but I have not seen many protestants on a journey. Salvation is not a process its an event. How someone who claims to be a preacher can say sanctification has nothing to with any suffering is beyond me. However nothing will ever be satisfactory for 4bdn because the view of sanctification/justification are not the same. For him/her its all done. The do not understand the churches teaching on grace. It will always boil down to what Paul and James were saying. That was a major shift. What do Catholics know they are the whore of babylon and those early Fathers were all daft according to those in here. I am done with them, but its useless to talk about purification from someone who claims they are completely pure. Its all done. They read some words one day and thats it.

"For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." (Rom 6:19)

For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.(1 Thess 4:2-3)

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.(2 Tim 2:20-21)

The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.... if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.(1 John 2:4-6; 4:12)

Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.(Rev 22:11)

Romans 5:3-5 And not only this, but [we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us (What!?) Suffering? Tribulations? Does what!?

2 Thessalonians 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Clay

United States

#407182 Dec 5, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
-
http://www.catholicbible101.com/thetencommand...
-
Funny how this CATHOLIC site has shown the differences and made the point of telling us that THEIR 10 Commandments are 2000 years old, compared to the PROTESTANT 10 Commandments which are only 500 years old.
-
Only thing is - that in suspending logic, the site administrator FORGETS that The HEBREW 10 Commandments written in about 1512 B.C.E.
and which, incidentally, match the Protestant 10 Commandments. Since the Hebrew 10 Commandments is where we get them in the first place, I'll agree with the Hebrew 10 Commandments.
-
-
Now, Clay, you have borne false witness against me, by accusing me of violating the 9th commandment, and according to your Catholic Commandments as printed on this web site, that would be:
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
-
Now, I never! First of all, my neighbors wife is really not my type! and second the reason she's not my type - is I prefer the company of a man.
-
Furthermore: as per your question, I ask the same of your church members -- and ... you might well ask your church hierarchy the same question.
Clay: "How can you possibly look Christ in the eye someday?"
-
I won't even go into the second commandment. You are gonna do what you wanna do, regardless. Graven images are all over your churches and forget the Vatican and the Pagan Sun symbols. Forget the symbols of Mary with stars and snakes under her feet .. and that's just a sampling.
-
But, look at THESE commandments while considering the Pedophile priests and those (church hierarchy, all the way to the Pope) who covered up for them.
-
7. You shall not commit adultery
WHAT? do Catholic Priests think it is NOT adultery to rape a child?
-
9. You shall not bear false witness
they rape children and then LIE about raping children?
-
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
and someone should tell them they should not covet their parish members' children.
-
I despise the Catholic Church for the lies she has told for 2000 years.
-
When I was Catholic, I desperately wanted to visit the Vatican. NOW even the *thought* of stepping foot on the property makes me physically ill.
I don't get it. I told you what official Catholic teachings are concerning the ten commandments. Yet you ignore it, and post a web page with 'catholic' in the title, and say "look, there it is, I told you so"
You're a con artist.

1. Are you aware pedophilia is no more rampant in the Catholic Church, then YOUR church!
Bingo you worthless fraud.

2. Why do you single out the Catholic Church?

3. If we're not the Church that Christ started, then who is?
You can't answer that without looking stupid. So I'll let you come up with another cult pamphlet to post.
Clay

United States

#407183 Dec 5, 2012
guest wrote:
<quoted text>
-
http://www.catholicbible101.com/thetencommand...
-
Funny how this CATHOLIC site has shown the differences and made the point of telling us that THEIR 10 Commandments are 2000 years old, compared to the PROTESTANT 10 Commandments which are only 500 years old.
-
Only thing is - that in suspending logic, the site administrator FORGETS that The HEBREW 10 Commandments written in about 1512 B.C.E.
and which, incidentally, match the Protestant 10 Commandments. Since the Hebrew 10 Commandments is where we get them in the first place, I'll agree with the Hebrew 10 Commandments.
-
-
Now, Clay, you have borne false witness against me, by accusing me of violating the 9th commandment, and according to your Catholic Commandments as printed on this web site, that would be:
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
-
Now, I never! First of all, my neighbors wife is really not my type! and second the reason she's not my type - is I prefer the company of a man.
-
Furthermore: as per your question, I ask the same of your church members -- and ... you might well ask your church hierarchy the same question.
Clay: "How can you possibly look Christ in the eye someday?"
-
I won't even go into the second commandment. You are gonna do what you wanna do, regardless. Graven images are all over your churches and forget the Vatican and the Pagan Sun symbols. Forget the symbols of Mary with stars and snakes under her feet .. and that's just a sampling.
-
But, look at THESE commandments while considering the Pedophile priests and those (church hierarchy, all the way to the Pope) who covered up for them.
-
7. You shall not commit adultery
WHAT? do Catholic Priests think it is NOT adultery to rape a child?
-
9. You shall not bear false witness
they rape children and then LIE about raping children?
-
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
and someone should tell them they should not covet their parish members' children.
-
I despise the Catholic Church for the lies she has told for 2000 years.
-
When I was Catholic, I desperately wanted to visit the Vatican. NOW even the *thought* of stepping foot on the property makes me physically ill.
When you're interested in actual truth instead of cult deception then come talk to us.

I'll promise you the same thing I promised Confrint.

I'm willing to leave the Catholic faith tomorrow, if you could somehow persuade me that the Church is wrong and you are right.

But here is the kicker: you're not allowed to use deception. I will look into whatever you tell me... If it doesn't check out, I can't follow you.

Example: if you say 'sex abuse scandal'..
and my research shows its the same numbers in YOUR church as mine and in YOUR family as mine- statistically speaking, then I'll dismiss you.

If you say "Catholics worship statues".. And I - being Catholic - knows this is not true- I will dismiss whatever cult you're trying to get me to join.

If you speak truth, then it should be a piece of cake to get me out of Catholicism
Your move.
preston

Waverly, OH

#407184 Dec 5, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, but I have not seen many protestants on a journey. Salvation is not a process its an event. How someone who claims to be a preacher can say sanctification has nothing to with any suffering is beyond me. However nothing will ever be satisfactory for 4bdn because the view of sanctification/justification are not the same. For him/her its all done. The do not understand the churches teaching on grace. It will always boil down to what Paul and James were saying. That was a major shift. What do Catholics know they are the whore of babylon and those early Fathers were all daft according to those in here. I am done with them, but its useless to talk about purification from someone who claims they are completely pure. Its all done. They read some words one day and thats it.
"For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." (Rom 6:19)
For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.(1 Thess 4:2-3)
Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.(2 Tim 2:20-21)
The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.... if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.(1 John 2:4-6; 4:12)
Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.(Rev 22:11)
Romans 5:3-5 And not only this, but [we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us (What!?) Suffering? Tribulations? Does what!?
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
in these verses that you presented, please tell us where you find that any purging is present in them.

never mind, if you were a Christian you would understand, and since you arent, you Dont.
simple as that.and this part of the verse clearly shows that you dont understand."sanctificatio n of the Spirit .NOTICE THAT IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT THE AUTHOR IS TALKING ABOUT, NOT THE BODY.

and again I will tell you, it is a blessing not any type of suferring as you are suggesting{How someone who claims to be a preacher can say sanctification has nothing to with any suffering is beyond me.}
and it is easy for me to say that to you since again you arent a Christian and so you dont understand the things of God.AND IT SHOWS.
Clay

United States

#407185 Dec 5, 2012
preston wrote:
<quoted text>in these verses that you presented, please tell us where you find that any purging is present in them.
never mind, if you were a Christian you would understand, and since you arent, you Dont.
simple as that.and this part of the verse clearly shows that you dont understand."sanctificatio n of the Spirit .NOTICE THAT IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT THE AUTHOR IS TALKING ABOUT, NOT THE BODY.
and again I will tell you, it is a blessing not any type of suferring as you are suggesting{How someone who claims to be a preacher can say sanctification has nothing to with any suffering is beyond me.}
and it is easy for me to say that to you since again you arent a Christian and so you dont understand the things of God.AND IT SHOWS.
Careful Preston, you can't dictate whether or not Dust Storm is a Christian. Or anyone else for that matter.
marge

Ames, IA

#407186 Dec 5, 2012
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
Careful Preston, you can't dictate whether or not Dust Storm is a Christian. Or anyone else for that matter.
I guess that explains why you blindly follow the rcc, you can't tell the difference. sad.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#407187 Dec 5, 2012
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
Di yo mammy makes da dirt?
06Dec12.....

....da snakes crawl at night and da 'slackBleep', once again, just cannot comeUP vit the answer.

Ps:....Vonder vhy!!!

Yo momma sucks pigs.

Forever and Ever
BobLoblah

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#407188 Dec 5, 2012
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
You really don't understand Science, huh? "Dirt is such a varied mixture of different minerals and compounds that almost anything can be included. However, the most common rocks make the most common components. This would usually mean a lot of quartz (silicon dioxide, SiO2), limestone (calcium carbonate, CaCO3), and all the other usual suspects. The other basic component of soil is organic matter, so various hydrocarbons associated with life will be abundant." http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index... You give lazy a bad name.
06Dec12.....

.....BobLoblah unnerstans more dan you dink.

Ps:.....Now WHO made the varied mixture of different minerals and compounds that almost anything can be included...especially the most common rocks?????

..and the udder basic components of soil that is organic matter, and hydrocarbons associated with life???????

Come on. Come on. Explain WHO made dis stuffys.

Forever and Ever
truth

Perth, Australia

#407189 Dec 5, 2012
4000 years ago..see who..who is know who..but someone who going to be bigger then god..they liked change law and time..
until they destroy everything..
yes
Asked yourself about righteousness!

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#407190 Dec 5, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess that explains why you blindly follow the rcc, you can't tell the difference. sad.
06Dec12.....

.....jest vot is needed on dis Topic, annudder schidt-for-brains and 'marge da barge' is its name.

Ps:.....BobLoblah believes dat ven it comes to you 'marge', there's more brains in a bottle of wadda.

Forever and Ever
BobLoblah

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#407191 Dec 5, 2012
06Dec12,,,,,

.....For ALL the bullschidt dat has been placed hereIN this topic......

...the Holy Roman Catholic Church is the ONE True Church.

Ps:.....but, of course, the hateful, hypocritical, hAtheists have schidt-for-brains and could Never see it that way.

More the pity, BobLoblah dinks.

Forever and Ever
BobLoblah
Clay

Chicago, IL

#407192 Dec 5, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess that explains why you blindly follow the rcc, you can't tell the difference. sad.
Are you accusing me of blindly following the Roman Catholic Church?
If so, why?
Exactly, you're speaking without thinking it through. I march to my own beat.
If any of ya could come up with a religion that DIDN'T rely on falsehoods about another Church, I would take you seriously.
The fact is, you guys only exist because you stole the Catholic bible and put a false label on it. Then you turned around and smacked the Catholic Church over the head with it using your 40,000 interpretations.
Heck, if I left Catholicism, I couldn't reasonably choose one of you over the other. You all can't function without lying about the Catholic Church!

I'm quite content with where I'm at thank you Margareta.
Oh, and none of you have Christmas (except the Orthodox) and I like Christmas too much.
preston

Waverly, OH

#407193 Dec 5, 2012
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
Careful Preston, you can't dictate whether or not Dust Storm is a Christian. Or anyone else for that matter.
I have felt his acidic tongue in the past and have no respect for him. in fact, he to me is as bad as gif.

so on him, we will just have to agree to disagree
preston

Waverly, OH

#407194 Dec 5, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess that explains why you blindly follow the rcc, you can't tell the difference. sad.
stay out of this, it doesnt concern you. so go back to your bong
guest

United States

#407195 Dec 5, 2012
guest wrote:
-
Well aren't you the prize citizen, Anthony? Pretending to have the ability to accurately assess someone's mental health over the internet, and offering your services in locating a Mental Healthcare provider. If you would have no trouble locating one for LTM ...HOW COME YOU CAN'T SEEM TO FIND ONE FOR YOURSELF? Yeah, you should probably be more concerned for your own mental health. To think that you are so deeply entrenched in the delusions of the Catholic Church that anyone who proves you wrong needs mental health care? How delusional is that?
-
It simply proves what a good Catholic you are! Fully indoctrinated and fully brainwashed into believing it is the JOB of the CATHOLIC church and the Pope to challenge and change God's Word as they see fit.
-
Go figure!
-
-
Clay wrote:
Your religion exist for one reason only. Ignorance.
You know it.
It can't survive unless you forgo all reason and logic and embrace deception. You get victims to join your cult by misusing the Holy Bible.
You make a living telling us Catholics what we believe. Amazing... I didn't think the latter was possible. You tell us what we believe?? Lol wow.
Get lost
-
Ignorance? The largest "cult" in the world is the Roman Catholic Church.
-
All definitions of a cult fit the Catholic Church.
guest

United States

#407196 Dec 5, 2012
Signs of a cult:
-
Every cult has a single powerful human leader. In fact, all cult leaders will proclaim themselves a god on earth. Do you recall Jim Jones? or Charles Manson? They both proclaimed themselves to be Jesus Christ. Did you know the Pope does this as well? Listen to what the Pope's of Rome have to say in that regard
-
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." Catholic National July 1895.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,

"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils." Vol. XIV, col. 109

The title "Lord God the Pope" is found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4, In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope) can be found in column 153. In a Paris edition, they are found in column 140.

"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land ... He is the vicegerent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords"--La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871.

"It seems that Pope John Paul II now presides over the universal Church from his place upon Christ's cross," said Bishop Dunn, who traveled with seven other prelates to Rome. Taken from an article entitled, "Auckland Bishop Says Pope Presides From the Cross" AUCKLAND, New Zealand, SEPT. 20, 2004 -Zenit.org (Article # ZE04092001)
-
OUR BIBLE SAYS...

Isaiah 45:22, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Dust Storm

Minneapolis, MN

#407197 Dec 5, 2012
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
Careful Preston, you can't dictate whether or not Dust Storm is a Christian. Or anyone else for that matter.
I dont know I would go with anyone? ;-) However the Mantra on this thread is Catholics are not Christians. You do realize Preston doesnt believe God hears prayers of Catholics and but of course the Church is the Whore of Babylon. However his understanding of Justification/sanctification is not the Catholic understanding. I have no desire to speak with him. In his mind he is this great preacher and Apostle. Fine,but is foolishness to argue with a fool who exhalts himself in imaginary victories. The reality is he has withstood nothing nor swayed anyone as he constantly boasts about everything. Sorry, but the guy is a complete loon and I have no intention of feeding his Narcissism or giving him the attention he so desperately needs. I shook my sandals of him long ago.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/purgbas.h...

But let’s say salvation was a done deal. Is our sanctification instantly accomplished? Some Protestants say Catholics don’t understand the difference between justification and sanctification. They say justification is instantaneous, and sanctification is a lifelong process. Even granting this, the final step into heaven would require us to be perfectly purified and made completely holy through Christ’s grace, since the church in heaven, where "nothing unclean can enter" contains holy and perfected people (cf. Matthew 5:48; Hebrews 12:14, 23; 1 Thess 5:23; Eph 5:26f; Rev 21:27). So we DO "need to be purified" according to Scripture (cf. Mal 3:2-3; 1 Peter 1:6-9; 1 Cor 3:12-15; Hebrews 12:29), and Christ's one sacrifice is the application of that final purification and sanctification necessary for heaven -- which Catholics call "purgatory."

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a94.htm

http://www.holysoulscrusade.org/early-fathers...

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