Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

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Since: Dec 06

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#406047
Nov 30, 2012
 
DEFENDER of Blessed MARY wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert writes "... how much more progressive God is in dealing with slavery"
No Robert, "progressive" would be God condemning the immorality of slavery, period.
But if your god can only make it relatively less cruel than other cultures (in your mind only, btw), then you are referring to a weak, waffling god.
Maybe the same god who couldn't destroy chariots because they were made of iron?
Free Mind/Defender

Your mind is locked....Slavery in the O.T., is not what we think of it today. The type of slavery you are thinking about today, back in O.T. times was punishable by death, according to God's law to Moses....

The term slave in the O.T., is more akin to what we perceive of as an indentured servant. But even that is not quite it....A slave was someone who was trying to pay their bills, and was working a deal with those to whom the bill was owed.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#406048
Nov 30, 2012
 
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
That statement moved you higher onhis heirs.
1500CE The master could legally own slave and pass that slave and the slaves offspring off to his heirsthe meaning of the word has changed. So the true reason of why you will not explain the difference, is because there is no difference. You are either a liar or an idiot.
Sheep:



It wasn't that long agonThe roman catholic church branded people as heretics who believed the earth wasn't flat, or later that the sun did not revolve around the earth.
Today, the church accepts married couples have sex without the idea of creating children, but they reject the idea that they can use contraceptives.

Not to long ago, the church LEADERS moved pedophiles around to different parishes, protecting the pedophiles and not the children they abused.

It is also intolerable TODAY that the church rejects the ability of one half of our population (women) to serve vital roles in their church, because the old boys clique, in reality don't want any part of women in their club.

...How many ways can we point at illogical ideas by these old men who hate women equal to themselves, before they understand they are harming people more than they are aiding them.

As the old catholic women move off with their attitudes "WHAT EVER THEY SAY IS OK WITH ME JACK" and young catholic women come aboard, its obvious young women today are already in the hunt to bring equality to all, and the biggest LOSER will be the church itself.

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 55:11--"MATT 10:27"

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#406049
Nov 30, 2012
 

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who="preston"the thread is actually not about "POWER" per se.
how about addressing the real problem that he and others have and it concerns the doctrine of people receiving the Holy Ghost(forget about Power)when they get saved, when the bible indicates otherwise.
and I am certain that you along with your wife have seen people get Baptised with the Holy Ghost, without any Prests being involved.
and no smart alec remarks, be serious or be quiet.
this is the Bible and the Holy Ghost we are discussing.
they deserve that respect.

**********

406037 is a bit confusing. Gif did not write that; Truth did. I don't know why two names show up like that. The first name makes it appear that Gif is writing. Then Truth's name appears, and it is he who is speaking to you.

We have one friend who received the Holy Ghost in bed one night. Another received the Holy Ghost while alone at home. She lived 6,000 miles from me; never heard a sermon, had no church to go to, and only our E mails and God to help her. It is, after all, GOD's work, not mans.

Certainly the Bible and the Holy Ghost are worthy of the utmost respect.

KayMarie

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#406050
Nov 30, 2012
 

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Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Free Mind/Defender
Your mind is locked....Slavery in the O.T., is not what we think of it today. The type of slavery you are thinking about today, back in O.T. times was punishable by death, according to God's law to Moses....
The term slave in the O.T., is more akin to what we perceive of as an indentured servant. But even that is not quite it....A slave was someone who was trying to pay their bills, and was working a deal with those to whom the bill was owed.
Wow! We were allowed to kill our indentured servants? I did not know that!
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#406051
Nov 30, 2012
 

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Why is it OK for a catholic priest in Maryland to deny communion to a lesbian at her parents funeral, but its alright for gay catholic clergy to give themselves holy communion and dispense it to others at all other church services?

People wonder why so many roman catholics are bailing?

UNBELIEVABLE!

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#406052
Nov 30, 2012
 
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
Sheep:
It wasn't that long agonThe roman catholic church branded people as heretics who believed the earth wasn't flat, or later that the sun did not revolve around the earth.
Today, the church accepts married couples have sex without the idea of creating children, but they reject the idea that they can use contraceptives.
Not to long ago, the church LEADERS moved pedophiles around to different parishes, protecting the pedophiles and not the children they abused.
It is also intolerable TODAY that the church rejects the ability of one half of our population (women) to serve vital roles in their church, because the old boys clique, in reality don't want any part of women in their club.
...How many ways can we point at illogical ideas by these old men who hate women equal to themselves, before they understand they are harming people more than they are aiding them.
As the old catholic women move off with their attitudes "WHAT EVER THEY SAY IS OK WITH ME JACK" and young catholic women come aboard, its obvious young women today are already in the hunt to bring equality to all, and the biggest LOSER will be the church itself.
I don't know, Michael. It amazes me that people of even less than moderate intelligence cannot see it!
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#406053
Nov 30, 2012
 

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ALL AMERICANS WILL RECEIVE A MICROCHIP IMPLANT IN 2013 PER OBAMACARE

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A major news story broke on AOL and countless other mainstream news media outlets, this past week, that the Obama Health Care Bill will require all U.S. citizens and babies to receive a microchip or Medchip by March 23, 2013. Whether or not the microchip requirement in the bill is implemented by 2013, remains to be seen.

In 2010, my book “Are You Ready for the Microchip?” was released, and I asked the question,“Is the microchip implant hidden in the Healthcare Bill? Are newborn children starting in 2013 going to receive a microchip shortly after birth?” Then in the book, I wrote,“ In the massive US HEALTHCARE BILL, which your elected representatives voted for without reading, there is a section titled: Subtitle C-11 Sec. 2521 – National Medical Device Registry which states:
The Secretary shall establish a national medical device registry (in this subsection referred to as the ‘registry’) to facilitate analysis of postmarket safety and outcomes data on each device that—‘‘(A) is or has been used in or on a patient; and ‘‘(B) is a class III device; or ‘‘(ii) a class II device that is implantable.


The language is deliberately vague, but it provides the structure for making America the first nation in the world that would require every U.S. citizen to receive an implanted radio-frequency (RFID) microchip for the purpose of controlling medical care.

A number of states like Virginia, have passed “stop the mark of the beast legislation” in an effort to stop this kind of legislation.

As with numerous other things that I have written and spoken about based on solid documentation, I am regularly challenged by some, and especially those in the Christian community, who are clueless about what is going on. Their criticism has never prevented me from presenting the facts, because I never take a poll about what I write or speak on. A Christian is called to speak the truth in love, whether or not it is accepted. I am not trying to disparage any ministry, but I don’t determine what I say based on whether or not it is “seeker friendly,” or popular. The only issue is, is it true and is it wise to communicate it at that particular time?

There are many things that I could say, but don’t, because there many people in our nation who, when confronted with a truth that is outside the box of their socially engineered consciousness, go into cognitive dissonance. As the microchip implant moves closer day by day, along with the “manufactured crisis” of illegal immigration, the problems of states like Arizona are creating an environment where Senators Charles Schumer (D-NY) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC) are moving legislation forward that would require all U.S. workers, citizens and resident alike, to obtain and carry a National Biometric ID Card in order to work within the United States. It does not matter where you stand on the issue of amnesty or immigration, everyone is going to have to have a National Biometric ID Card that will eventually contain an RFID transmitter which will allow Big Brother electronic data bases to track all of your personal information. It is a simply a national ID card under another name. The national ID card will transition into a microchip implant, because that is technically more efficient. All of this which is about to happen very soon, is just the tip of the iceberg.
preston

Waverly, OH

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#406054
Nov 30, 2012
 

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confrinting with the word wrote:
who="preston"the thread is actually not about "POWER" per se.
how about addressing the real problem that he and others have and it concerns the doctrine of people receiving the Holy Ghost(forget about Power)when they get saved, when the bible indicates otherwise.
and I am certain that you along with your wife have seen people get Baptised with the Holy Ghost, without any Prests being involved.
and no smart alec remarks, be serious or be quiet.
this is the Bible and the Holy Ghost we are discussing.
they deserve that respect.
**********
406037 is a bit confusing. Gif did not write that; Truth did. I don't know why two names show up like that. The first name makes it appear that Gif is writing. Then Truth's name appears, and it is he who is speaking to you.
We have one friend who received the Holy Ghost in bed one night. Another received the Holy Ghost while alone at home. She lived 6,000 miles from me; never heard a sermon, had no church to go to, and only our E mails and God to help her. It is, after all, GOD's work, not mans.
Certainly the Bible and the Holy Ghost are worthy of the utmost respect.
KayMarie
then you would agree that no catholic priests nor any apostles were present when those that you spoke of received the Holy Ghost.

and as I read your post, one that you mentioned was in a bed, and therefore was not being Baptised while in bed.

another example of God working in a persons life and I also told hank that I received the Holy Ghost while I was in bed.

I dont think that anyone should limit God as to when He Works,in bed, at an altar or elsewhere.

when a person committs all, then God will meet that persons desire
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#406055
Nov 30, 2012
 

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Cont
ALL AMERICANS WILL RECEIVE A MICROCHIP IMPLANT IN 2013 PER OBAMACARE

President Ronald Reagan refused to pass what he called this “Mark of the Beast” legislation. In my book,“Are You Ready for the Microchip?,” I examine the careful wording in the Health Care Bill which calls for a Med-Chip and a microchip implant. It was never hidden, it is simply Republican and Democrat, along with our corporate-controlled and Orwellian media, who deliberately chose to ignore it. The Bilderberg Group gave orders to microchip the entire U.S. population and then the world. Before the Health Care Bill was passed, the target date was set for the year 2013, when every baby born in the U.S. will receive a microchip at birth. Many are attacking President Obama for this, but although it is the Obama Health Care Bill, the microchip plan was created decades ago and put onto the fast track by the Republican Administration of President George Bush and his allegedly “born-again” Attorney General, John Ashcroft, after 911. It seems Ashcroft was more concerned about covering up the breasts of a Lady Liberty statue in the hallway of the Department of Justice, than he was about protecting our Constitutional liberties, which include the freedom of religion.

RFID Chip Implantation already being used today.


Unfortunately, Evangelical Christians make excellent political pawns because they focus on secondary issues, rather than the important issues. This is because Evangelical Christianity in America today does not have a truly Biblical worldview. I truly do not want to sound unkind, but the historical reality is that Evangelical Christians have played the part of what Lenin called “useful idiots.” Obviously, this is not what God planned for His people. But, by rejecting a Biblical worldview, the Scripture,“My people perish for lack of knowledge,” is fulfilled. The majority of Evangelical Christians in America have a very superficial faith as a result of what they are being taught in many of their churches and seminaries.

Glass-encased RFID chips, ready for implantation.

The new microchip technology with an RFID chip is so advanced it sounds like science fiction. The Apostle Paul explains how this fits into Revelation 13, where the False Prophet will head a one world religion and force people to accept the mark of the beast. A microchip implant, biochip implant or med chip, in and of itself, is not necessarily the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast under the direction of the False Prophet, requires the conscious rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and a commitment to worship the Antichrist as God.

If you still thinking this is a lie feel free to check out the H.R. 3200 PDF file

click on this link

Scroll down to page 1000, the writing for the RFID chip starts half way on page 1000.

The challenge for Christians and others will be the very act of taking a microchip implant, biochip implant or med chip, simply because of its parallel to the Biblical mark of the beast. Will people of faith be exempted for religious reasons or will they be forced to take it or imprisoned. In addition, any microchip technology could be activated with enhanced controls after it is implanted. So what starts out as a simple microchip implant could become a technology where at some future time, you must worship the Antichrist as God, and reject Jesus Christ as Lord in order to participate in the economic system. The built-in and evolving capacity of microchip technology makes this a dangerous possibility.

In the final analysis, the simple act of accepting the implantation of a microchip for medical reasons appears harmless on the surface. However, there is no guarantee that once it is implanted, that it will not be activated for mark of the beast technology. This is the danger and challenge that lies before us.

Source: http://www.newswithviews.com
Anthony MN

United States

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#406056
Nov 30, 2012
 

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confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
~~~
The Bible is about
Learning about Jesus...
Question...
Have you ever considered how little the Thief on the cross had to go through to be accepted by Christ into paradise..
Have you ever given any considered that Jesus never mentioned any of the calisthenics that the Roman Catholic Church requires for a person to become "A Catholic"....
(NOTE HERE I DID NOT SAY TO BECOME "A CHRISTIAN."
BECOMING A CATHOLIC DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN BECOMING A CHRISTIAN,,
DON'T YOU KNOW?
ALL CATHOLICS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS ...NEITHER ARE ALL PROTESTANTS Christians ...
JESUS SAID
Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
THE EXAMPLES FROM GOD'S WORD IS ...
Act_16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
YOU CARNAL MINDED MANIPULATORS WANT TO ADD TO IT AND MAKE IT COMPLICATED...
BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HAVE FAITH ENOUGH TO BELIEVE WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS.
AND YOUR CHURCH WANTS TO CONTROL...CREATE RITUALS, AND MAKE GOD'S PLAN
OF SALVATION A WALL OF WORKS TO CLIMB ..INSTEAD OF SIMPLE FAITH..
~~~
WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE...The unmerited favor of God
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
NOTE...
ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO WORK FOR A GIFT..
Our works are A LABOR OF LOVE ...TOWARD GOD..BECAUSE .... HE HAS GIVEN US THE GIFT OF SALVATION
Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom_5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
YOU DEVALUE THE GIFT WHEN WE ATTEMPT TO ADD OUR OWN CARNAL WORKS TO GOD'S ETERNAL PLAN OF SALVATION..
NO CORRUPTIBLE MAN... CAN ADD TO THE SINLESS SACRIFICE... JESUS GAVE FOR US...AT CALVARY
AND NO MAN CAN TAKE AWAY FROM THE VALUE..OF THE GIFT, OF THE BLOOD.
OF JESUS...WHAT EVER HE ATTEMPTS TO ADD OR SUBTRACT IS IS FRUITLESS,
calisthenics, THAT ARE OF NO ETERNAL CONSEQUENCES..
My suggestion to you mr. confrinting is that you take your wife and go to a "bible for beginners" class and learn the meaning of the 8th commandment (in fundamentalist circles that would be the 9th). Have a nice day.

Since: Dec 06

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#406057
Nov 30, 2012
 
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
You don't get it.
Supposedly - "God" gives permission to another entity to allow abuse of "His" child.
First off, if your "God" allowed this, then it is a game to "Him".
If your "God" was loving, then he would have 'smited' "Satan" immediately, but oh no....."He" allows the abuse to go on.
Unfortunately, you and other so-called "Christians" play the "persistence of faith in God" card.
Our Father doesn't do this, especially being a "being of love".
But you are still in a frame of mind that includes "pain and torture", "destruction", and "abuse" to an individual, so he can show that he will not waver fromt he ordeal, and instead wait for the positives to come after all is said and done ('the game'), without seeing any alternatives.
Most men are not like this. And also IMO - the allegoric symbolism is not "literal".
This is what men have told you to believe - and you've accepted it.
I'm not sure why you just can't believe that all men have "demons" that plummet us. Did you ever think that this is the symbolism that the story refers to?
- we all can overcome difficulty if we are persistant in our stance and there can be a reward at the end of the difficult tasks - if one seeks it out.
Only we can destroy our own life, otherwise, "God" would be stepping in more often. In one instance, would be allowing a little girl to get home, before she froze to death.
You aren't using logic in your faith.
<quoted text>
Convenient? No.
Honest - yes.
I wrote, as above, "I'm not sure why you just can't believe that all men have "demons" that plummet us. Did you ever think that this is the symbolism that the story refers to?"
"demons" = vices, addictions, challenges we go through.
We are all haunted by things we've done, or even may apply to our current life activities. Since you taken the word to have a literal meaning, as you seem to be a "literalist" when it comes to the Bible, then I will have to beg your pardon, and stop discussing these issues we all have to face, in order to get to some sort of "salvation".
You seem to not have any "demons", so I guess you are already like Job - righteous.
Carry on.
NASL

My error. When you wrote "demons" I thought you meant it literally.
But Job was given over to/ with Satan literally, even though he was righteous....
Righteousness....The meaning has changed and evolved, between Job, and our times.
Virtues are the opposite of vice.
Addictions are generally the result of vice.
Hauntings....This is guilt as a result of sin.

I look forward to challenges.
Anthony MN

United States

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#406058
Nov 30, 2012
 

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confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Anthony MN"
"Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation. 41 They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls."
**********
Read the whole chapter, Anthony. Peter was speaking about the gift of the Holy Ghost. Joel and Isaiah prophesied it, John Baptist preached it, Jesus promised it, and the Apostles received it in the Upper Room...NOT in a baptismal font.
KayMarie
KayMarie
Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized”(“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults.“Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes”(primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

Since: Dec 06

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#406059
Nov 30, 2012
 
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
BTW Robert - I don't blame "Satan" or any entity for things that are bad.
Although, and you should agree with this, many individuals on this forum and in the world do.
But when asked where they get their justification to do so, as always, you never see an answer from them.
Where's the honesty?
A: people are scared to admit the truths that they don't understand, and would rather place blame on someone else, instead of owning it.
NASL

Good for you that you don't blame Satan and demons. Great....

Who/what do you blame?(Rhetorical question. I will ask a question latter, so I can understand.(smile))

It seems to always start and stop, begins and ends(alpha/omega) in other words your god is understanding....i.e. perception of self/Self.

While to others, understanding is a means to an end....It is only the middle of a process. And what a Christian fails to understand does not detract from justification, and is thus not a sin, but a defect of form....

For you it appears one or more of the following is true:

You are afraid of the truths you understand?
You have not acquired enough truths?
You do not understand enough?

So I would like to honestly know your answers to those three questions....

Since: Feb 08

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#406060
Nov 30, 2012
 
I want to thank everyone for your prayers.
I just recieved the call that my nephew Michael Paul passed away at 6:50 pm.
He was only 42 yrs old.

Please continue to pray for the family,especially his daddy,my brother Jerry.
No doubt he's going through a terrible time now, and will continue for quite some time.

Such a sad time in his life.

God bless you all.

Since: Dec 06

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#406061
Nov 30, 2012
 
4GVN wrote:
The Roman Catholic Gospel(the GOOD news)......... IF someone poors water on my head when I am an infant, and IF I grow up in the Catholic Church, and IF I go to confirmation, and IF I keep the commandments, and IF I go to confession at least once a year, and IF I partake in all of the sacriments, and IF I pray the rosery, and IF I don't die with any mortal sin, then I MIGHT go to Purgatory for hundreds, or thousands, or millions of years(no one knows for sure), and if anyone remembers to keep praying for me to get out of Purgatory, then I MIGHT get to go to heaven. Is that the GOOD NEWS of Roman Catholicism?
4GVN good friend

The Church part you got right....Either you are or aren't part of the the Church, born again, and leading a righteous life in Jesus Christ.... The rest of what you write is merely helping to lead a righteous life in Jesus Christ.

As a general rule, someone in Purgatory is heavenbound, just a kind of stopover before the final destination. Time is a relative term we use....

Since: Dec 06

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#406062
Nov 30, 2012
 

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Full of Love wrote:
I want to thank everyone for your prayers.
I just recieved the call that my nephew Michael Paul passed away at 6:50 pm.
He was only 42 yrs old.
Please continue to pray for the family,especially his daddy,my brother Jerry.
No doubt he's going through a terrible time now, and will continue for quite some time.
Such a sad time in his life.
God bless you all.
Full of Love good friend

I will keep them and you in my prayers....
Anthony MN

United States

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Nov 30, 2012
 

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"The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit." Origen, Commentary on Romans, 5:9 (A.D. 244).
Clay

Saint Paul, MN

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Nov 30, 2012
 

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4GVN wrote:
<quoted text> The Holy Spirit 'guides' individuals who He indwells, NOT institutions. If as you believe, the POPE is the spiritual leader of the RCC. And(as you agreed) said POPE was a wicked unregenerate, unchristian man, where is the leadership? And to take it a step further, If (as you agreed) said POPE was a non-christian and therefore could not possibly be the 'VICAR OF CHRIST' what has become of APOSTLEIC SUCCESION? It of necessity CEASES.
How does Apostolic succession get messed up because a Pope was a terrible sinner?

These men did nothing to alter Church teachings or dogma.
4GVN

Sikeston, MO

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#406065
Nov 30, 2012
 
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
I always answer your questions. Would that you would give me the same courtesy.
"Then what do you believe was the state of the RCC during the reign of these ungodly men?"
The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, was preaching the gospel. These "ungodly" men (even though you are in no position to judge) were sinners. Just like you and me.
"Do you believe that a non-christian is indwelt with the holy Spirit?"
No, I don't believe that. Do you believe you are able to judge whether someone is a Christian because they sin?
"Do you believe that the Holy Spirit guides lost people?"
Yes. We're not OSAS.
"Do you believe that one of these lost,unchristian people could be the 'VICAR of CHRIST'?"
We really have a language barrier here. Do you consider every person who sins a "lost, unchristian"? No, I believe a "lost, NON-Christian" could not be appointed the Vicar of Christ. But if you mean to imply that you know for certain that these men weren't Christians and that they did not repent before death and that everyone who is a "saved Christian" never sins, well, you've got quite the line of communication with God that no one else has.
If someone lives like the devil all of thier lives it is only logical to believe that they are not christian. So it would be a matter of being converted before they died. This is possible, but off topic, and there is no evidence to make us believe that that happened.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

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#406066
Nov 30, 2012
 

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Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
4GVN good friend
The Church part you got right....Either you are or aren't part of the the Church, born again, and leading a righteous life in Jesus Christ.... The rest of what you write is merely helping to lead a righteous life in Jesus Christ.
As a general rule, someone in Purgatory is heavenbound, just a kind of stopover before the final destination. Time is a relative term we use....
The pope admitted that purgatory was church created.

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