Roman Catholic church only true churc...

Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

There are 681754 comments on the CBC News story from Jul 10, 2007, titled Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican. In it, CBC News reports that:

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CBC News.

Clay

Denver, CO

#405231 Nov 27, 2012
4GVN wrote:
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation, and all who are capable of hearing that and understanding it are bound by it.
.
Rob
I think there is a very real question. Are there 'conditions' tied to a 'free gift'? Are there conditions to attaining a RELATIONSHIP with Christ?
All forgivness. All power. All payment for our sins is in Christ
Himself. It is all about our 'relationship' with Him..........
What can water do? Can it wash away sins? Can it bring about a relationship? Can it in any way add to the 'finished work' of our atonement that Jesus 'paid in full' on the cross?
In other words....Is Jesus sufficient?
Suppose the Apostles did teach that water is required. Clearly, people in Christianity baptize with water very early on.. Should you be coming along 2,000 yrs later to tell the Apostles they were wrong?
It comes down to this: do YOU, 4gvn, have the authority to determine what's valid and what's not?
Clay

Denver, CO

#405232 Nov 27, 2012
4GVN wrote:
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Jesus is the One in Charge. If He chooses to make exceotions to His own rule, who are we to question that.
.We know the rule, and should be following it.
.
Rob
Can the 'Righteous Judge' change the rules He extablished? Can a R.J. say to one who was not baptized "enter in to your salvation and yet cast another into eternal darkness for the SAME OFFENSE? Not the God I know. There is only one requirement for salvation and that is to recieve JESUS as our Saviour. ALL ELSE is done not to gain salvation and the new birth, but because the new birth has occured.
All we are saying is that Catholics will not get in the way, if Christ chooses to save someone who has not been Baptized.
Now, why you guys seem to wanna dictate who, what and where the Lord can save someone is beyond me. But good luck if you're wrong.
Clay

Denver, CO

#405233 Nov 27, 2012
4GVN wrote:
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
.
Jesus is the One in Charge. If He chooses to make exceotions to His own rule, who are we to question that.
.We know the rule, and should be following it.
.
Infants cannot know the rule, and I seriously doubt that God would hold them to it.(Might He hold their parents to it? it's possible ...)
.
.
Rob
Have you really thought of what you are saying,implies? Jesus can make 'exceptions' as to the 'requirement' for salvation and everlasting life?
Jesus is the 'Righteous Judge' of all humanity. Do you believe that a 'Righteous Judge' can use two different scales, or standards. Can a 'R.J.' allow one into heaven unbaptized and yet condemn another to hell for the same reason. Not and be a 'Righteous Judge'.
I don't think Christ is using two different scales. He is all loving and merciful. He can see into our hearts. You can't. Therefore you can't dictate who is saved and who isn't.
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#405234 Nov 27, 2012
Live Action wrote:
<quoted text>did you leave out the part where it says you will pay for the sins of your fore fathers.
Deuteronomy 24:16

16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

If you study a little harder, you will find that the Israelites were wrong in saying/thinking they were being sent into captivity because their ancestors sinned.

They, essentially, were CONTINUING the SINS of their fathers.
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#405235 Nov 27, 2012
Live Action wrote:
The laws were never done away with.they were never nailed to a cross.this is why we live in a sin sick world their would be no reason to have a kingdom or heaven if the laws were kept we would be living in heaven on earth.
come out of this world so that you do not partake in her sins.warning if you do you will be called a nut a looney tunes.people hate the truth because the truth hurts and you might have to change and admit you are wrong.
We live in a sin sick world because of UNBELIEF....
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#405236 Nov 27, 2012
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
LOL?
.
Why?
.
Do you believe it likely the Good Thief was baptized? To me, it seems rather unlikely ...
We don't know for sure if the thief was baptized or not....

But, if he was baptized, it was under John the Baptist (baptism of repentance.)

He could not have been baptized under the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, as Jesus had not been crucified yet.

John 1:6-8

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John.

7 He came as a [[[witness to testify concerning that light,(Jesus)]]] so that through HIM all might believe.

8 ~~~He himself WAS NOT the light;~~~ he came only as a WITNESS to the light (Jesus.)

Mark 1:4

4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

**********

While on earth, Jesus had the authority to forgive sins.....

Matthew 9:6

6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man,“Get up, take your mat and go home.”

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#405238 Nov 27, 2012
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
good luck if you're wrong.
And the same to you.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#405239 Nov 27, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
We live in a sin sick world because of UNBELIEF....
Incorrect supposition.

We live in this world, because we were born and have not died.

Placing qualifiers on why you live, just shows how much Self is a Major part and role in it.

Learn it, live it, love it. It's the only one you have.
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#405240 Nov 27, 2012
confrinting with the word wrote:
Truth wrote:
From darkness to light...
Jesus told Paul....
Acts 26:18
18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God,~~~~~so that they may receive forgiveness of sins~~~~~ and a place among those who are [[[sanctified]]] by faith in me.’
What makes such a [new creation] and a [new life] a reality in Christ Jesus?
Live Action:
awe haw you admit to satan having power most seem to over look this...
Live Action
Norman, OK
So the question today is what makes the creator a god....answer please.
**********Please notice that men are turned from the power of darkness (satan) TO GOD.
Satan's power is only the power to deceive. He can't make you do anything...but men are drawn away by their own lusts. Men follow the deceitful voice of Satan...not his 'power'.
II The Creator is not A god. He is THE God of heaven and of earth.
KayMarie
You wrote:

Men follow the deceitful voice of Satan...not his 'power'.

Now, explain this to your husband....

Sin is an ACTION done by the individual....we do not inherit sins from our father, etc.

And, yes, people will listen to the voice of Satan, instead of listening to the voice (the Word) of God.
4GVN

Saint Louis, MO

#405241 Nov 27, 2012
hojo wrote:
<quoted text>
The thief was not subject to the New Testament command to be baptized into Christ’s death (Romans 6:3-4), just as Moses, Abraham, and David were not amenable to it. They all lived prior to the cross under different law codes. They could not have been baptized into Christ’s death—because He had not yet died! The establishment of the church of Christ and the launching of the Christian religion did not occur until after Christ’s death, on the day of Pentecost in the year A.D. 30 in the city of Jerusalem (Acts 2). An honest and accurate appraisal of the biblical data reveals for us to conclude that the thief on the cross is not an appropriate example of how people are to be saved this side of the cross.
Does God have more than ONE plan of salvation?

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#405242 Nov 27, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Ezek 36:25-27
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
Dust Storm good friend

I really like this whole chapter in Exekial....

One thing to point out concerning the (sprinkling of water)baptising, notice that it is "I" will do the baptizing, and the results(by Grace) are of the "I"....
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#405243 Nov 27, 2012
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Dust Storm"
Psalm 71:6 From birth I have relied on you; you brought me forth from my mother's womb. I will ever praise you.
Psalm 22:9 But you are he that took me out of the womb: you did make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 Sure is alot of people doing things here and elsewhere that some say arent necessary.
Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized”(“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.
Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults.“Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes”(primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html
Wont be back today, but I am sure you can find plenty of other Protestants to argue with about something.
**********
Read more closely: "The promise (of the Holy Spirit Joel 2) is UNTO YOU, AND unto your children, AND to all who are afar off (even today), as many as the Lord our God shall call." Peter was not referring to water baptism, but to "the promise" (Acts I:4-8).
Acts 1:4-8

4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him,“Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them:“It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

8 But you (APOSTLES) will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Baptism of/with the Holy Spirit was for the apostles and the House of Cornelius.....NO WATER REQUIRED and NONE of JESUS' BLOOD)....it was the Holy Spirit with fire....
Clay

Denver, CO

#405244 Nov 27, 2012
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
And the same to you.
The difference would be...I'm not dictating my own Christianity. I don't believe in private interpretation of sacred scripture.
You and others chose to teach differently.
If you're right, Amen. If you're wrong...ouch!
4GVN

Saint Louis, MO

#405245 Nov 27, 2012
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
Suppose the Apostles did teach that water is required. Clearly, people in Christianity baptize with water very early on.. Should you be coming along 2,000 yrs later to tell the Apostles they were wrong?
It comes down to this: do YOU, 4gvn, have the authority to determine what's valid and what's not?
Clay, do you EVER address the topic, and answer a question or must you always divert and respond with an off topic comment. This does not allow for beneficial dialog. If you will address the topic, I will try to have a sensible dialog with you. If not it is not possible.
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#405246 Nov 27, 2012
4GVN wrote:
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation, and all who are capable of hearing that and understanding it are bound by it.
.
Rob
I think there is a very real question. Are there 'conditions' tied to a 'free gift'? Are there conditions to attaining a RELATIONSHIP with Christ?
All forgivness. All power. All payment for our sins is in Christ
Himself. It is all about our 'relationship' with Him..........
What can water do? Can it wash away sins? Can it bring about a relationship? Can it in any way add to the 'finished work' of our atonement that Jesus 'paid in full' on the cross?
In other words....Is Jesus sufficient?
I dislike this analogy but we've used it before.

Catholic 'free gift';

Jesus gives you a Christmas present, He gives it out of love for you, no conditions, no strings attached. It's a nicely wrapped race car. You accept the present. You open the box. You put in the batteries (which He supplied with the present). You turn it on and learn how to operate it using the instructions He gave. You run it on the race track and get to the finish line.

Evangelical fundamentalist 'free gift';

Jesus gives you a Christmas present, He gives it out of love for you, no conditions, no strings attached. It's a nicely wrapped race car. You accept the present. You say 'thanks' and leave it unwrapped and in the box.
4GVN

Saint Louis, MO

#405247 Nov 27, 2012
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think Christ is using two different scales. He is all loving and merciful. He can see into our hearts. You can't. Therefore you can't dictate who is saved and who isn't.
You don't think it is a different requirement if one is admitted (unbaptized) but another is cast out for being (unbaptized)? You are not being honest. Your judgement is impaired by your preconcieved beliefs. THINK it through. To one He says come on in. But he says but Lord, I am not baptized. To which the Lord says come on in anyway......To another He says Depert from me, YOU ARE NOT BAPTIZED! That is not a double standard to you?
4GVN

Saint Louis, MO

#405248 Nov 27, 2012
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
I dislike this analogy but we've used it before.
Catholic 'free gift';
Jesus gives you a Christmas present, He gives it out of love for you, no conditions, no strings attached. It's a nicely wrapped race car. You accept the present. You open the box. You put in the batteries (which He supplied with the present). You turn it on and learn how to operate it using the instructions He gave. You run it on the race track and get to the finish line.
Evangelical fundamentalist 'free gift';
Jesus gives you a Christmas present, He gives it out of love for you, no conditions, no strings attached. It's a nicely wrapped race car. You accept the present. You say 'thanks' and leave it unwrapped and in the box.
This is an inaccurate anology which you should know if you were really 'listening'. I have always said that there should(the normal christian life) be evidence of a changed life. But the evidence does not produce the change, the change produces the evidence. Regardless the ISSSUE is Which came first, the horse or the cart.

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#405249 Nov 27, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
Robert,
The Holy Spirit and water is required for baptism, however do not miss the singificants of what was happening when John Baptized Jesus with water. Water and spirit is initiated by Christ after his annointing. Water and spirit.
What is happening is a Royal annointing and Jesus is the Son of David.
Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him--the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD--32 And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him.
1 kings 1:39 And Zadok the priest took a horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon.
John the Baptist a Levite reveals Christ to Israel.
Jn 1:31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Mathew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened
Dust Storm good friend

I might add that Jesus' baptism was as a Royal Priest, Royal Prophet, and Royal King....
Anthony MN

Saint Paul, MN

#405250 Nov 27, 2012
4GVN wrote:
<quoted text>You don't think it is a different requirement if one is admitted (unbaptized) but another is cast out for being (unbaptized)? You are not being honest. Your judgement is impaired by your preconcieved beliefs. THINK it through. To one He says come on in. But he says but Lord, I am not baptized. To which the Lord says come on in anyway......To another He says Depert from me, YOU ARE NOT BAPTIZED! That is not a double standard to you?
One says "Please forgive my sins and save me Jesus, even though I'm nailed to a cross next to you and it's impossible for me to get baptized". Jesus will save him.

The other says "Please forgive my sins and save me Jesus, even though I had many opportunities to get baptized, but decided it wasn't necessary." Does Jesus still save him?
Clay

Saint Paul, MN

#405251 Nov 27, 2012
4GVN wrote:
<quoted text>You don't think it is a different requirement if one is admitted (unbaptized) but another is cast out for being (unbaptized)? You are not being honest. Your judgement is impaired by your preconcieved beliefs. THINK it through. To one He says come on in. But he says but Lord, I am not baptized. To which the Lord says come on in anyway......To another He says Depert from me, YOU ARE NOT BAPTIZED! That is not a double standard to you?
Why wasn't said person Baptized? Did they read the gospels and determined for themselves what Christ requires?
There are lots of variables to how people come to know Christ. All Catholics are saying is that God is the ultimate judge. And He will determine if a person gets saved. From scripture, we can see the significance of water baptism.
Water itself is pure; gives life to humans and is a necessary ingredient for all life.
I don't get the impression from the gospels that water is just a cute symbol they used to Baptize.

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