Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

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The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. Full Story

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404807 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
We are not allowed to come to God on our own terms (God's will).....we must come to Him on His terms (not man's will.)
Truth good friend

True...But what about the children? Remember, Jesus said,
" Let the come unto me(on their own terms), of such are the kingdom of Heaven."....Babies are to small to crawl or walk yet. They are smaller children(smile).

So it would seem children(on their own terms) are more "connected" to heaven than adults, the way I see Jesus' remark about them. But of course he made a teaching out of it too.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#404808 Nov 25, 2012
.......DustStorm......

In the book of Genesis we read that sons of gods had intercourse with women to produce heroes (Gen. 6:4). Even the recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls tell of the miraculous birth of Noah and how his father Lamech was suspicious that his wife had been made pregnant by an angel.

Its clearly obvious that christianity has very little unique about it. The only thing that they figured out was that if families indoctrinated their children generation after generation the belief would continue.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#404809 Nov 25, 2012
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Michael"
.......There are differences in the nativity story which serve to lessen its credibility. As an example, in an attempt to parallel the importance of Jesus' birth with that of Moses, Matthew describes the massacre of the children of Bethlehem by king Herod as he attempts to kill the infant messiah.
This extraordinary event is not attested to by any SECULAR SOURCE from that period, nor even referred to by Luke. Indeed, Luke has the family return peacefully, to Nazareth after Jesus' birth in Bethlehem (Luke 2:22,39).
If the massacre did take place, it does not make sense that Herod's son later on does not recall the event by his father about Jesus nor his importance (Matt. 14:1-2). Moreover, if Herod and all the people of Jerusalem knew of the messiah's birth (Matt. 2:3), why is it that later in Jesus' life, the "same" author claims that people had not heard of his miraculous origin and still questioned his miracles and his teachings (Matt. 13:54-56)?
.....conflicting information or what!
....something is wrong DustStorm...
**********
Secular sources, then as now, doggedly attempt to discredit the story...NOT proclaim it.
KayMarie
....... The recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls tell us of the miraculous birth of Noah and how his father Lamech was suspicious that his wife had been made pregnant by an angel.

... Also the writings of Philo of Alexandria, who was born about 20 B.C., contain evidence that some Jews of the period were speculating about miraculous births of religious heroes. Philo relates how Hebrew notables such as Isaac and Samuel were conceived by barren women by the intervention of the divine Spirit.

http://pocm.info/

Not much unique about christianity is there.....
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#404810 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
Baptism is not only an obedient response...it is also an IMMEDIATE response to our salvation by Christ.
How can an infant/small child have an OBEDIENT and IMMEDIATE response to their salvation by Christ???
Robert,

Preaching the Word of God brings about IMMEDIATE conviction to their hearts and converts them to the TRUTH.

How can this be done to an infant/small child???

Preaching the Word of God should be leaving a MESSAGE within their hearts (CONVICTION OF THEIR SINS).....I love you too much to see you lose your soul.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404811 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Robert I agree with your post and yes we must associate with sinners and try to save them God-willing.
But i was talking about those who claim to be of the true church when their works show they are evil.
Thanks again for the post and blessings to you.
marge, you havent changed which is why I have said this forum has declined in intelligence since.

you speak about the "true church" yet you call Orville who as called me a demon and prayed that God would kill me. a "brother".

orville is certainly not a Christian, tho you qualify as his brother. he is evil and you are stupid.

PRAYER
and what God is listening for
praying and thinking
bother the Father
God listens to prayers
Praying for enemies
for personal prayer requests
Prayer pdf document download
(more at end)
Praying Amiss:
puppeteering
the laundry list mentality
labeling and name-calling
comparing
using God to your advantage

getting God to back your plan
SORRY. ORVILLE BUT GOD ISNT GOING TO ANSWE THISPAYE, ALL IT DOES IS SHOW THAT YOU BELONG TO SATAN AND ANY PERSON WHO CALLS YOU A BROTHER IN CHRIST IS AS GUILTY AS YOU ARE AND WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDINGLY. OSAS WILL NOT HELP YOU EITHER .

MARGE.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404812 Nov 25, 2012
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
Claypool says.....Your stuff doesn't matter to us.
Michael says.......Thanks for reading my post! That is what matters to me.
mike, you think that you are smarter than the rest of us(and dont deny it) and yet you havent realized that your idiotic posts give us an opportunity to voice our concerns and show people that doing nothing is not an option, there is a judgement that you, like me, will have to face one day and you at 63 better be doing some fast thinking. you are closer now than you were 20 years ago,

on 8/25/82, I sent my sins on before me, unless you get Saved and do the same, your sins will follow you and you will not like the verdict the Judge hands down to you.
marge

Ames, IA

#404813 Nov 25, 2012
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation, and all who are capable of hearing that and understanding it are bound by it.
.Does this mean that Jesus Himself is bound by it? I don't see why He would be.
.
Jesus is the One in Charge. If He chooses to make exceotions to His own rule, who are we to question that.
.We know the rule, and should be following it.
.
Infants cannot know the rule, and I seriously doubt that God would hold them to it.(Might He hold their parents to it? it's possible ...)
.
We do what we can. With infants, if we are going to err, we will err on the side of caution, and baptize.
.I cannot find your earlier post, so I will try to address it as best I can from memory.
.
It is my belief that baptism of infants confers grace. Does this involve the HS? Yes, of course. All graces involve all the Persons of the Trinity.
.
Is the grace received at baptism of an infant (or an adult, really) the same as being "born from above?"
.
Well, we need to be careful not to be twisted up by semantics.
.
ALL grace comes "from above." so, is a person born again from water (baptism) "born from above?"
.
Well ... in a manner of speaking... yessssss ...
.
But Jesus spoke of this as two different things, so let us treat them as two different thing.
.Jesus said we must be reborn of water and the Spirit.
.
Okay. The water part is easy. It is the "death of baptism," the symbolic drowning, and coming back up out of the water ... this is "born again of water.
.
Born of the Spirit seems to imply some new relationship to the Spirit. If we treat it as analogous to baptism (and Jesus DID speak of both in the same breath, so linking them this way is not without justification), then it would be a "death to our old life, and a rising to a new life." A "death" to the life of sin, and a "rising" to a new life of virtue.
.
In other words, just getting baptized won't do it, at least not for anyone capable of doing more.
.
Luke 3:
"7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
They are called not just to the eternal sign (baptism), but to live an INTERNAL one as well, repentance.
.
Do infants receive grace from the HS at baptism? Of course.
.
Are they capable of living repentance?
.
No, not at all.
.
When they DO become capable of repentance, and they do repent, do they enter into a new and DEEPER relationship with the Holy Spirit?
.
I woukd insist that they do, and that it wad this that Jesus refers to.
.
Rob
wow how off base and your a teacher.
Free Mind

Pinellas Park, FL

#404814 Nov 25, 2012
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
B your (flawed) logic, Israel was never appointed or guided by God, or they would never have become involved in idolatry ever again. They would never have failed to hear the cry of the poor in their midst. They would never have failed to live Od's law.
.
But they did all these things, despite what God was calling them towards, and God allowed punishment to come down upon them, time and again, always bringing forward a faithful remnant.
.
The Church is not perfect. You can see that in the prayers of the Church. We ask to be cleaned of all sin, and kept free from all sin.
.
It makes no sense to pray this way, unless we can see the opposite happening.
.
Rob
Your logic makes the assumption that Israel was somehow "appointed" (chosen?) by God.

That is a matter of faith. It cannot be proven or tested.

But if Israel was somehow chosen by God, looking at history, maybe it would be better not to have been chosen.

You have to admit, that OT God was a mean and vengeful guy. Much meaner than the other deities of the earth's first cities.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404815 Nov 25, 2012
Michael said:
Christmas trees are a pagan tradition.
Pictures and statues of jesus have him with long hair and a beard. Did he have long hair and a beard?
Traditions, traditions, things are added along the way to add DRAMA to the story

ME;

you ought to ask someone who has seen Him, not someone who doesnt know Him.

Yes, he does have long hair, and it goes over His shouldes and he also has a beard.

sorry that I cant tell you how tall that He is, we both were sitting.

and tho all that I saw was in profile, what stood out was his countenance and the eye that I could see,

and what I saw, did agree with what I later, much later in fact read about him

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404816 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
True disciples are called to lay something down....
How does this fit into being baptized as an infant/small child???
"Let him deny himself"
Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
How could anyone apply this verse to an infant being baptized???
Truth good friend

On the surface, the first thing is that Paul was already a pretty old guy, and a Jew, before he repented and became a Christian, not an infant or a child. So Gal 2:20 is not the central issue in baptism. But as a Jew it seems he lived according to the various laws including circumcision, which is a "sign" of faith back to Abraham.

Likewise, baptism is a "sign" of faith, in similar manner as circumcision.

So I think baptism (especially of infants) is not so much a "laying down" as what you mean in the sense of being dead and buried with Christ, as much as it is a "sign" of faith.

Signs have a pretty expansive meaning and understanding. But in short, in the case of circumcision and baptism it is observable as a seal of a covenant....
marge

Ames, IA

#404817 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
Baptism is not only an obedient response...it is also an IMMEDIATE response to our salvation by Christ.
How can an infant/small child have an OBEDIENT and IMMEDIATE response to their salvation by Christ???
John baptized you with water but He Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
7th Day Catholics Rock

Poplar Bluff, MO

#404818 Nov 25, 2012
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Seraphima good friend
Glad to hear about Hermi....Advent begins in one week....
Whats was gong on Saturday evening about 4 o'clock I seen a whole lotta mackrel snappers congregated around the RCC here.
marge

Ames, IA

#404819 Nov 25, 2012
See, here we have an example(Preston) of someone claiming to be part of the true church, these do not eat with.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404820 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
wow how off base and your a teacher.
any person that has read your posts for any length of time has recognized that you arent very much of a student.

remember when you tried to use the garden episode to try and prove your understanding of OSAS.and you didnt read the "rest of the story" when John fully explained that it had been fully discharged that night.

if you cant get that right, how would you understand what ROB is saying.

the answer is obvious, you dont have the intelligence.

continue to listen to mr and mrs fraud, after 125 years, they dont know what they are talking about either.

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404821 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Robert I agree with your post and yes we must associate with sinners and try to save them God-willing.
But i was talking about those who claim to be of the true church when their works show they are evil.
Thanks again for the post and blessings to you.
marge good friend

I know(smile) what you meant.

I was just showing you a little history, and those you might consider not to be of the true church actually face a similar dilemma as you.

Glad you agree....
marge

Ames, IA

#404822 Nov 25, 2012
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation, and all who are capable of hearing that and understanding it are bound by it.
.Does this mean that Jesus Himself is bound by it? I don't see why He would be.
.
Jesus is the One in Charge. If He chooses to make exceotions to His own rule, who are we to question that.
.We know the rule, and should be following it.
.
Infants cannot know the rule, and I seriously doubt that God would hold them to it.(Might He hold their parents to it? it's possible ...)
.
We do what we can. With infants, if we are going to err, we will err on the side of caution, and baptize.
.I cannot find your earlier post, so I will try to address it as best I can from memory.
.
It is my belief that baptism of infants confers grace. Does this involve the HS? Yes, of course. All graces involve all the Persons of the Trinity.
.
Is the grace received at baptism of an infant (or an adult, really) the same as being "born from above?"
.
Well, we need to be careful not to be twisted up by semantics.
.
ALL grace comes "from above." so, is a person born again from water (baptism) "born from above?"
.
Well ... in a manner of speaking... yessssss ...
.
But Jesus spoke of this as two different things, so let us treat them as two different thing.
.Jesus said we must be reborn of water and the Spirit.
.
Okay. The water part is easy. It is the "death of baptism," the symbolic drowning, and coming back up out of the water ... this is "born again of water.
.
Born of the Spirit seems to imply some new relationship to the Spirit. If we treat it as analogous to baptism (and Jesus DID speak of both in the same breath, so linking them this way is not without justification), then it would be a "death to our old life, and a rising to a new life." A "death" to the life of sin, and a "rising" to a new life of virtue.
.
In other words, just getting baptized won't do it, at least not for anyone capable of doing more.
.
Luke 3:
"7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
They are called not just to the eternal sign (baptism), but to live an INTERNAL one as well, repentance.
.
Do infants receive grace from the HS at baptism? Of course.
.
Are they capable of living repentance?
.
No, not at all.
.
When they DO become capable of repentance, and they do repent, do they enter into a new and DEEPER relationship with the Holy Spirit?
.
I woukd insist that they do, and that it wad this that Jesus refers to.
.
Rob
sorry Rob but I can't believe you said this;

"I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation,"

No No, Salvation is a GIFT, gifts have no conditions.

You don't even know the Gospel Rob, Repent already.
7th Day Catholics Rock

Poplar Bluff, MO

#404823 Nov 25, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually having just seen it I would like clarification. I think the catechism and Catholic Apologists and theologians are quite clear on this subject. I think the subject was more than covered multiple times on this thread. If Fr Dye is advocating that baptism is not necessary until the age of reason then he would be contrary to the teachings of the church
We are bound by the sacraments but the Lord is not.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/thief-...
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html
The Church baptizes babies because baptism is the new circumcision of the New Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), just as the circumcision of eight-day old babies was the sign of the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3). In Acts 2:39, Peter says baptism is for children as well as adults. The word used for children ("teknon") means infants, which is proved by Acts 21:21 in reference to eight-day old infants. We see in Acts 10:47-48; 16:15,33 and 1 Cor. 1:16 that entire households were baptized. Household ("oikos") included infants and children. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism." It would have been unthinkable from a Jewish perspective to exclude children from God's covenant kingdom. See also in Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:3-5, Matt. 8:5-13, Luke 6:10, Mark 9:22-25 where people are healed based on another person's faith (just as babies are washed away of sin based on their parents' faith).
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism_qa.h...
What no mention of circumcision of the heart ?
Baptism represents being buried with Christ, our sins being coverd by his blood and putting on a new life in Christ who is the mediator of the New Covenant that God makes when he keeps his promise of putting his law in our hearts.

In the mean time we are to study and obey his commandments by the washing of his word and the renewing our mind that is revealed in understanding by the holy spirit.
7th Day Catholics Rock

Poplar Bluff, MO

#404824 Nov 25, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually having just seen it I would like clarification. I think the catechism and Catholic Apologists and theologians are quite clear on this subject. I think the subject was more than covered multiple times on this thread. If Fr Dye is advocating that baptism is not necessary until the age of reason then he would be contrary to the teachings of the church
We are bound by the sacraments but the Lord is not.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/thief-...
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html
The Church baptizes babies because baptism is the new circumcision of the New Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), just as the circumcision of eight-day old babies was the sign of the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3). In Acts 2:39, Peter says baptism is for children as well as adults. The word used for children ("teknon") means infants, which is proved by Acts 21:21 in reference to eight-day old infants. We see in Acts 10:47-48; 16:15,33 and 1 Cor. 1:16 that entire households were baptized. Household ("oikos") included infants and children. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism." It would have been unthinkable from a Jewish perspective to exclude children from God's covenant kingdom. See also in Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:3-5, Matt. 8:5-13, Luke 6:10, Mark 9:22-25 where people are healed based on another person's faith (just as babies are washed away of sin based on their parents' faith).
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism_qa.h...
P.S. don't forget repentenace how can a child repent of what he had no knowledge of.

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404825 Nov 25, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
All well and good.
Well I cannot speak for Fr Rob, but the summation of the argument is that Christ said water and spirit and its regenerative. We know that some Protestants today argue that baptism is not necessary at all nor is rengenerative but merely a symbolic gesture. Some argue about how it needs to be done, others argue about when it should be done and the age of reason will vary from church to church and culture. Some say it has nothing to do with water and outline various types of baptism. Some say its only valid if you do it in the name of Jesus, some say in the name of the creator. I dont think its that complicated. Its not a bath as Peter says. In faith we accept the gift offered for our children and the new convenant.
The Lord was angry when Moses wife did not want their child to be circumcized. It was a command and it was a sign of the covenant a work carried out in faith. The faith of the Centurion and the faith of the Parents. A Jewish person could of course reject the Jewish faith upon the age of reason just as a Catholic does not have to reaffirm their baptismal vows or participate in confirmation or leave the church. We have free will to walk away from God and reject Christ.
We can nurture our faith or suppress it. We can seek knowledge or we can avoid it. We can look for answers outside the church or within it. We can look to the beginning for old questions that repeat themselves or we can ignore them.
I believe it is a gift for children. The Jewish baby girls were cermeonially washed. St Paul did not just believe he got baptized. I would rather accept this gift for you and your children in faith knowing that God is a merciful God and believe that while we are bound by the sacraments the Lord is not. He said to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Dust Storm

Sometimes simple gives us a broad explanation....

Baptism is both personal and collective. The effects and effectiveness in both are by Grace, and thus are infused.

It is part of personal salvation, and part of the entrance into the whole Body of Christ. So it is a sign and seal.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404826 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
See, here we have an example(Preston) of someone claiming to be part of the true church, these do not eat with.
yep, I guess that people see me congregating all day long with people that go around "petitioning " god to kill someone.

why did he do that ,marge, stop and think if you are capable?

he got angry because I caght him in a lie of his own making, when he used some verses to prove that Jesus never paid taxes and when he looked down and saw that the 27th verse showed that jesus did pay taxes, he tried to sluff it off with some of his garbled up english language(only LTM is worse).

Gods people dont make those kinds of prayers and Christians dont call those kinds of people brother either.

it is plain that the guy has a mental problem, calling himself a prophet, just like some people call themselves napoleon.

you can cast aspersions on me all day long, but when all is said and done, our words are our Judge.

I STAND FOR WHAT IS RIGHT, NOT LIKE YOU, FOR WHAT IS WRONG

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