Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

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Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404816 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
True disciples are called to lay something down....
How does this fit into being baptized as an infant/small child???
"Let him deny himself"
Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
How could anyone apply this verse to an infant being baptized???
Truth good friend

On the surface, the first thing is that Paul was already a pretty old guy, and a Jew, before he repented and became a Christian, not an infant or a child. So Gal 2:20 is not the central issue in baptism. But as a Jew it seems he lived according to the various laws including circumcision, which is a "sign" of faith back to Abraham.

Likewise, baptism is a "sign" of faith, in similar manner as circumcision.

So I think baptism (especially of infants) is not so much a "laying down" as what you mean in the sense of being dead and buried with Christ, as much as it is a "sign" of faith.

Signs have a pretty expansive meaning and understanding. But in short, in the case of circumcision and baptism it is observable as a seal of a covenant....
marge

Ames, IA

#404817 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
Baptism is not only an obedient response...it is also an IMMEDIATE response to our salvation by Christ.
How can an infant/small child have an OBEDIENT and IMMEDIATE response to their salvation by Christ???
John baptized you with water but He Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
7th Day Catholics Rock

Poplar Bluff, MO

#404818 Nov 25, 2012
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Seraphima good friend
Glad to hear about Hermi....Advent begins in one week....
Whats was gong on Saturday evening about 4 o'clock I seen a whole lotta mackrel snappers congregated around the RCC here.
marge

Ames, IA

#404819 Nov 25, 2012
See, here we have an example(Preston) of someone claiming to be part of the true church, these do not eat with.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404820 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
wow how off base and your a teacher.
any person that has read your posts for any length of time has recognized that you arent very much of a student.

remember when you tried to use the garden episode to try and prove your understanding of OSAS.and you didnt read the "rest of the story" when John fully explained that it had been fully discharged that night.

if you cant get that right, how would you understand what ROB is saying.

the answer is obvious, you dont have the intelligence.

continue to listen to mr and mrs fraud, after 125 years, they dont know what they are talking about either.

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404821 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Robert I agree with your post and yes we must associate with sinners and try to save them God-willing.
But i was talking about those who claim to be of the true church when their works show they are evil.
Thanks again for the post and blessings to you.
marge good friend

I know(smile) what you meant.

I was just showing you a little history, and those you might consider not to be of the true church actually face a similar dilemma as you.

Glad you agree....
marge

Ames, IA

#404822 Nov 25, 2012
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation, and all who are capable of hearing that and understanding it are bound by it.
.Does this mean that Jesus Himself is bound by it? I don't see why He would be.
.
Jesus is the One in Charge. If He chooses to make exceotions to His own rule, who are we to question that.
.We know the rule, and should be following it.
.
Infants cannot know the rule, and I seriously doubt that God would hold them to it.(Might He hold their parents to it? it's possible ...)
.
We do what we can. With infants, if we are going to err, we will err on the side of caution, and baptize.
.I cannot find your earlier post, so I will try to address it as best I can from memory.
.
It is my belief that baptism of infants confers grace. Does this involve the HS? Yes, of course. All graces involve all the Persons of the Trinity.
.
Is the grace received at baptism of an infant (or an adult, really) the same as being "born from above?"
.
Well, we need to be careful not to be twisted up by semantics.
.
ALL grace comes "from above." so, is a person born again from water (baptism) "born from above?"
.
Well ... in a manner of speaking... yessssss ...
.
But Jesus spoke of this as two different things, so let us treat them as two different thing.
.Jesus said we must be reborn of water and the Spirit.
.
Okay. The water part is easy. It is the "death of baptism," the symbolic drowning, and coming back up out of the water ... this is "born again of water.
.
Born of the Spirit seems to imply some new relationship to the Spirit. If we treat it as analogous to baptism (and Jesus DID speak of both in the same breath, so linking them this way is not without justification), then it would be a "death to our old life, and a rising to a new life." A "death" to the life of sin, and a "rising" to a new life of virtue.
.
In other words, just getting baptized won't do it, at least not for anyone capable of doing more.
.
Luke 3:
"7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
They are called not just to the eternal sign (baptism), but to live an INTERNAL one as well, repentance.
.
Do infants receive grace from the HS at baptism? Of course.
.
Are they capable of living repentance?
.
No, not at all.
.
When they DO become capable of repentance, and they do repent, do they enter into a new and DEEPER relationship with the Holy Spirit?
.
I woukd insist that they do, and that it wad this that Jesus refers to.
.
Rob
sorry Rob but I can't believe you said this;

"I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation,"

No No, Salvation is a GIFT, gifts have no conditions.

You don't even know the Gospel Rob, Repent already.
7th Day Catholics Rock

Poplar Bluff, MO

#404823 Nov 25, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually having just seen it I would like clarification. I think the catechism and Catholic Apologists and theologians are quite clear on this subject. I think the subject was more than covered multiple times on this thread. If Fr Dye is advocating that baptism is not necessary until the age of reason then he would be contrary to the teachings of the church
We are bound by the sacraments but the Lord is not.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/thief-...
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html
The Church baptizes babies because baptism is the new circumcision of the New Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), just as the circumcision of eight-day old babies was the sign of the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3). In Acts 2:39, Peter says baptism is for children as well as adults. The word used for children ("teknon") means infants, which is proved by Acts 21:21 in reference to eight-day old infants. We see in Acts 10:47-48; 16:15,33 and 1 Cor. 1:16 that entire households were baptized. Household ("oikos") included infants and children. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism." It would have been unthinkable from a Jewish perspective to exclude children from God's covenant kingdom. See also in Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:3-5, Matt. 8:5-13, Luke 6:10, Mark 9:22-25 where people are healed based on another person's faith (just as babies are washed away of sin based on their parents' faith).
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism_qa.h...
What no mention of circumcision of the heart ?
Baptism represents being buried with Christ, our sins being coverd by his blood and putting on a new life in Christ who is the mediator of the New Covenant that God makes when he keeps his promise of putting his law in our hearts.

In the mean time we are to study and obey his commandments by the washing of his word and the renewing our mind that is revealed in understanding by the holy spirit.
7th Day Catholics Rock

Poplar Bluff, MO

#404824 Nov 25, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually having just seen it I would like clarification. I think the catechism and Catholic Apologists and theologians are quite clear on this subject. I think the subject was more than covered multiple times on this thread. If Fr Dye is advocating that baptism is not necessary until the age of reason then he would be contrary to the teachings of the church
We are bound by the sacraments but the Lord is not.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/thief-...
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html
The Church baptizes babies because baptism is the new circumcision of the New Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), just as the circumcision of eight-day old babies was the sign of the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3). In Acts 2:39, Peter says baptism is for children as well as adults. The word used for children ("teknon") means infants, which is proved by Acts 21:21 in reference to eight-day old infants. We see in Acts 10:47-48; 16:15,33 and 1 Cor. 1:16 that entire households were baptized. Household ("oikos") included infants and children. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism." It would have been unthinkable from a Jewish perspective to exclude children from God's covenant kingdom. See also in Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:3-5, Matt. 8:5-13, Luke 6:10, Mark 9:22-25 where people are healed based on another person's faith (just as babies are washed away of sin based on their parents' faith).
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism_qa.h...
P.S. don't forget repentenace how can a child repent of what he had no knowledge of.

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404825 Nov 25, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
All well and good.
Well I cannot speak for Fr Rob, but the summation of the argument is that Christ said water and spirit and its regenerative. We know that some Protestants today argue that baptism is not necessary at all nor is rengenerative but merely a symbolic gesture. Some argue about how it needs to be done, others argue about when it should be done and the age of reason will vary from church to church and culture. Some say it has nothing to do with water and outline various types of baptism. Some say its only valid if you do it in the name of Jesus, some say in the name of the creator. I dont think its that complicated. Its not a bath as Peter says. In faith we accept the gift offered for our children and the new convenant.
The Lord was angry when Moses wife did not want their child to be circumcized. It was a command and it was a sign of the covenant a work carried out in faith. The faith of the Centurion and the faith of the Parents. A Jewish person could of course reject the Jewish faith upon the age of reason just as a Catholic does not have to reaffirm their baptismal vows or participate in confirmation or leave the church. We have free will to walk away from God and reject Christ.
We can nurture our faith or suppress it. We can seek knowledge or we can avoid it. We can look for answers outside the church or within it. We can look to the beginning for old questions that repeat themselves or we can ignore them.
I believe it is a gift for children. The Jewish baby girls were cermeonially washed. St Paul did not just believe he got baptized. I would rather accept this gift for you and your children in faith knowing that God is a merciful God and believe that while we are bound by the sacraments the Lord is not. He said to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Dust Storm

Sometimes simple gives us a broad explanation....

Baptism is both personal and collective. The effects and effectiveness in both are by Grace, and thus are infused.

It is part of personal salvation, and part of the entrance into the whole Body of Christ. So it is a sign and seal.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404826 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
See, here we have an example(Preston) of someone claiming to be part of the true church, these do not eat with.
yep, I guess that people see me congregating all day long with people that go around "petitioning " god to kill someone.

why did he do that ,marge, stop and think if you are capable?

he got angry because I caght him in a lie of his own making, when he used some verses to prove that Jesus never paid taxes and when he looked down and saw that the 27th verse showed that jesus did pay taxes, he tried to sluff it off with some of his garbled up english language(only LTM is worse).

Gods people dont make those kinds of prayers and Christians dont call those kinds of people brother either.

it is plain that the guy has a mental problem, calling himself a prophet, just like some people call themselves napoleon.

you can cast aspersions on me all day long, but when all is said and done, our words are our Judge.

I STAND FOR WHAT IS RIGHT, NOT LIKE YOU, FOR WHAT IS WRONG
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#404827 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
John baptized you with water but He Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#404828 Nov 25, 2012
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Truth good friend
On the surface, the first thing is that Paul was already a pretty old guy, and a Jew, before he repented and became a Christian, not an infant or a child. So Gal 2:20 is not the central issue in baptism. But as a Jew it seems he lived according to the various laws including circumcision, which is a "sign" of faith back to Abraham.
Likewise, baptism is a "sign" of faith, in similar manner as circumcision.
So I think baptism (especially of infants) is not so much a "laying down" as what you mean in the sense of being dead and buried with Christ, as much as it is a "sign" of faith.
Signs have a pretty expansive meaning and understanding. But in short, in the case of circumcision and baptism it is observable as a seal of a covenant....
Robert,

The Law of Moses did not make Paul alive unto God.

Paul had "to die to the Law."

Paul said "no" to self and "yes" to Christ, just as we have to when we are baptized.

Romans 6:6-7

6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Again, how does this apply to infant baptism???
7th Day Catholics Rock

Poplar Bluff, MO

#404829 Nov 25, 2012
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
A monk devised the calendar back in the 6th century. Somehow he made some miscalculations.
READ BELOW.....IMPORTANT.
Its been known for centuries that there was conflict in the gospel of Matthew and Luke as ot the birth of Jesus.
Matthew claims that the birth of Jesus occurred during the reign of Herod the Great of Judea, whom we know died in 4 B.C.
Luke also tells us that Jesus' birth happened during Herod's reign. Luke even adds what appears to be detailed and historical evidence of the period. He writes that Jesus was born during a census or registration of the populace ordered by emperor Augustus at the time that Quirinius (Cyrenius) was Roman governor of Syria (Luke 2:1-3). In reality, this has to be a fabrication because Quirinius was not governor of Syria and Judea during Herod's kingship. Direct Roman rule over the province of Judea, where Bethlehem was located, was not established until 6 A.D. In other words, ten years separated the rule of Quirinius from Herod.
If the census did take place, it was in the year 6 CE, long after Herod's death. Therefore, Matthew's stories of the Wise Men's visit to Herod and the Christchild, and Herod's massacre of the innocents which caused the holy family to flee to Egypt, are all historically impossible. Moreover, it should be noted that Luke also got his facts wrong about the census of Augustus. Such an imperial census would only apply to Roman citizens of the empire, not to Joseph, a Galilean who was not under direct Roman rule.
...something is terribly wrong!
Several Herods during this time period i would think it was his son Herod Archelaus ethnarch of Judea, Samaria, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BCE to 6 CE thay is being referred to.

The Romans made Herod's son Herod Archelaus ethnarch of Judea, Samaria, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BCE to 6 CE, referred to as the tetrarchy of Judea. Archelaus was judged incompetent by the Roman emperor Augustus who then combined Samaria, Judea proper and Idumea into Iudaea province[8] under rule of a prefect until 41. Herod's other son Herod Antipas was tetrarch of Galilee from 4 BCE – 39 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#404830 Nov 25, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah Mikey I know you are an anarchist. You dont follow any rules. You should let the police know and stop paying taxes or do you live in fear? lol Y
You submit to the will of an external authority. blah blah blah. I dont submit to the will of Mikey and the world according to Mikey.
I will be sure to let myself know I am afraid because you said so.
I was addressing your impotent point Dr. Deflecto. A priest does not make a vow before God because they have to. They chose it. Furthermore a Catholic has a right to discuss a discipline and how it may benefit the church to change it. So your ridiculous assertions that those who question it somehow is beyond reproach is amusing at best and only serves to fill your crowded tray of fodder. There are proper ways to do things. You keep saying women priests. There are no women priests.
The Apostles did have some boundaries and yes they had their Mikeys to deal with just like Moses did. You must have been self employed or did you live in fear of rules? LOL
DustStorm says.....Yeah Mikey I know you are an anarchist. You dont follow any rules. You should let the police know and stop paying taxes or do you live in fear? lol

Michael says....I have always stated, I follow the laws of the land, I have never done illegal drugs, never abused alcohol such as one of the catholic posters keeps reminding us of his problem, I pay all my taxes, credit cards, never been in jail, I help my neighbors or anyone who needs help.........but according to you I haven't done enough.

preston

Waverly, OH

#404831 Nov 25, 2012
read this article, with a little bit of understanding.

it is a humorous yet still a serious article.

God Angrily Clarifies 'Don't Kill' Rule
September 26, 2001 | ISSUE 37•34 | More News

God.
"Look, I don't know, maybe I haven't made myself completely clear, so for the record, here it is again," said the Lord, His divine face betraying visible emotion during a press conference near the site of the fallen Twin Towers. "Somehow, people keep coming up with the idea that I want them to kill their neighbor. Well, I don't. And to be honest, I'm really getting sick and tired of it. Get it straight. Not only do I not want anybody to kill anyone, but I specifically commanded you not to, in really simple terms that anybody ought to be able to understand."

Worshipped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike, God said His name has been invoked countless times over the centuries as a reason to kill in what He called "an unending cycle of violence."

"{{I don't care how holy(SEE THIS MR FALSE PROPHET AND HIS SISTER MARGE) somebody claims to be," God said. "If a person tells you it's My will that they kill someone, they're wrong. Got it? I don't care what religion you are, or who you think your enemy is, here it is one more time: No killing, in My name or anyone else's, ever again."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-angrily-...

it is satire, so if you are to ignorant to know what satire is, DONT READ IT, IT WILL JUST GO OVER YOUR HEAD

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404832 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
If infant baptism or any water-baptism had infused virtues, not Scriptual, not proven.
marge good friend

Maybe its hard to prove, to the unbeliever, but it is scriptural.

Remember faith is a sign of righteousness(faith is one of the virtues) to Abraham before he was circumcised, and then became circumcised....Romans 4:11

The effects and effectiveness are by God's Grace and man's acceptance of that Grace.

Baptism is a seal as is circumcision....

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404833 Nov 25, 2012
7th Day Catholics Rock wrote:
<quoted text>Whats was gong on Saturday evening about 4 o'clock I seen a whole lotta mackrel snappers congregated around the RCC here.
7th day....

I don't know. Today is a Solemnity of Christ the King, definitely a day to celebrate the Kingship of Christ....
Orville

Portland, OR

#404834 Nov 25, 2012
preston wrote:
<quoted text>marge, you havent changed which is why I have said this forum has declined in intelligence since.
you speak about the "true church" yet you call Orville who as called me a demon and prayed that God would kill me. a "brother".
orville is certainly not a Christian, tho you qualify as his brother. he is evil and you are stupid.
PRAYER
and what God is listening for
praying and thinking
bother the Father
God listens to prayers
Praying for enemies
for personal prayer requests
Prayer pdf document download
(more at end)
Praying Amiss:
puppeteering
the laundry list mentality
labeling and name-calling
comparing
using God to your advantage
getting God to back your plan
SORRY. ORVILLE BUT GOD ISNT GOING TO ANSWE THISPAYE, ALL IT DOES IS SHOW THAT YOU BELONG TO SATAN AND ANY PERSON WHO CALLS YOU A BROTHER IN CHRIST IS AS GUILTY AS YOU ARE AND WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDINGLY. OSAS WILL NOT HELP YOU EITHER .
MARGE.


Wiley-Preston steals again."Prayer" stolen from:
http://www.spirithome.com/prayersp.html

I still petition Holy God to remove you from this earth. Still. Sometimes daily. You refer to this as "Kill" - "death". To you it probably is . You will not partake in the second death. And you know this.
Then you try to bring Marge into your sinister and dark agenda by once again hurdling very personal insults at her. Again.

I do not and will not ever see you as a anything but what you are. A Roman troll. They are not my brother.

preston

Waverly, OH

#404835 Nov 25, 2012
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Truth good friend
On the surface, the first thing is that Paul was already a pretty old guy, and a Jew, before he repented and became a Christian, not an infant or a child.
Robert, where did you come up with the knowledge that Paul was a"pretty old guy" when he got Saved?

since right before this event, he was a "student" of Gamiliel, and I just dont think that Gamilel would have taken old men as students.

so could you give me the link where you found out that info about Paul, I would like to read it for myself.

Paul died when he was only 62, that is younger than you and I.lol.

it is believed that Paul was around 14 when he was sent to study the law under gamaliel

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