Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.
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Fr Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

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#404787
Nov 25, 2012
 

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Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually having just seen it I would like clarification. I think the catechism and Catholic Apologists and theologians are quite clear on this subject. I think the subject was more than covered multiple times on this thread. If Fr Dye is advocating that baptism is not necessary until the age of reason then he would be contrary to the teachings of the church
We are bound by the sacraments but the Lord is not.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/12/thief-...
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html
The Church baptizes babies because baptism is the new circumcision of the New Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), just as the circumcision of eight-day old babies was the sign of the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3). In Acts 2:39, Peter says baptism is for children as well as adults. The word used for children ("teknon") means infants, which is proved by Acts 21:21 in reference to eight-day old infants. We see in Acts 10:47-48; 16:15,33 and 1 Cor. 1:16 that entire households were baptized. Household ("oikos") included infants and children. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism." It would have been unthinkable from a Jewish perspective to exclude children from God's covenant kingdom. See also in Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:3-5, Matt. 8:5-13, Luke 6:10, Mark 9:22-25 where people are healed based on another person's faith (just as babies are washed away of sin based on their parents' faith).
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism_qa.h...
.
There is a difference between what is "truly necessary" and what is "allowed."
.
From its origins, the Church has alway allowed infant baptism.
.
We have rocked back and forth as to whether it is truly necessary.
.
For example, if we regard that infants who die before baptism have no salvation, then it would be silly to have a mass of Christian Burial for them. But with the children of Christians, the Church does this, commending such children to God's mercy.
.
Jesus said we must be born again, of water and the Spirit. There it is. Thunk.
.
So ... how to deal with the parents of a child who has died, when we have refused them baptism because they have not attained the age of reason?
.
It makes much more sense to do (as the very early Church seems to have done) baptism for infants presented to the Church for this, and continue in catechesis when they are capable of receiving it. The Holy Spirit can act as He chooses, and if He chooses to pour out sufficient grace for Heaven on an infant, baptized or unbaptized, who would we be to question it?
.
God is not bound by the sacraments, but WE ARE, and shoukd not act as roadblocks to God's grace.
.
Rob

Since: Dec 06

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#404788
Nov 25, 2012
 
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
A baby/infant/small child is not yet able to believe/faith or to make a personal decision to follow Christ and take up his cross.
Truth good friend

I don't think I disagree with you here.

But in theory can anyone be "old enough" to believe, or only have faith within themselves to make a decision for Christ? Conversion may be quick or long in coming. In some, like Paul's "quick" conversion, it takes being aware, and understanding the Gospel working in our minds, but also for God to touch us in a supernatural way, to make us alive in Christ, and then repent of former ways....

So there are two aspects of baptism. It therefore behoves us to be an instrument of God to carry out baptism of infants. As this may begin God's touching them at an early age....Later on the repentance and decision is made....

So it doesn't matter which order this happens.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#404789
Nov 25, 2012
 
confrinting with the word wrote:
Michael said:
Christmas trees are a pagan tradition.
Pictures and statues of jesus have him with long hair and a beard. Did he have long hair and a beard?
Traditions, traditions, things are added along the way to add DRAMA to the story
**********
Human 'logic' often spoils a beautiful picture. The Christmas tree is an EVERGREEN. The Tree of Life in Revelations is along both sides of The River of Life proceeding from the throne. It is EVERGREEN bearing fruit EVERY MONTH. There is a DIFFERENT FRUIT every month.
Thus the EVERGREEN tree with its various colored ornaments is not 'pagan'.
We don't know how long Jesus' hair was. Why fuss about it?
KayMarie
Being protestant I am wondering why you didn't say why do catholics have statues and pictures depicting a man that no one has a clue what his real image would have been......if he had existed.

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/pagan-symbols....
Truth

Leesburg, VA

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#404790
Nov 25, 2012
 

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confrinting with the word wrote:
Michael said:
Christmas trees are a pagan tradition.
Pictures and statues of jesus have him with long hair and a beard. Did he have long hair and a beard?
Traditions, traditions, things are added along the way to add DRAMA to the story
**********
Human 'logic' often spoils a beautiful picture. The Christmas tree is an EVERGREEN. The Tree of Life in Revelations is along both sides of The River of Life proceeding from the throne. It is EVERGREEN bearing fruit EVERY MONTH. There is a DIFFERENT FRUIT every month.
Thus the EVERGREEN tree with its various colored ornaments is not 'pagan'.
We don't know how long Jesus' hair was. Why fuss about it?
KayMarie
Jeremiah 10:1-6

1 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel.

2 This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.

3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”

6 No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#404791
Nov 25, 2012
 
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Michael"
.......There are differences in the nativity story which serve to lessen its credibility. As an example, in an attempt to parallel the importance of Jesus' birth with that of Moses, Matthew describes the massacre of the children of Bethlehem by king Herod as he attempts to kill the infant messiah.
This extraordinary event is not attested to by any SECULAR SOURCE from that period, nor even referred to by Luke. Indeed, Luke has the family return peacefully, to Nazareth after Jesus' birth in Bethlehem (Luke 2:22,39).
If the massacre did take place, it does not make sense that Herod's son later on does not recall the event by his father about Jesus nor his importance (Matt. 14:1-2). Moreover, if Herod and all the people of Jerusalem knew of the messiah's birth (Matt. 2:3), why is it that later in Jesus' life, the "same" author claims that people had not heard of his miraculous origin and still questioned his miracles and his teachings (Matt. 13:54-56)?
.....conflicting information or what!
....something is wrong DustStorm...
**********
Secular sources, then as now, doggedly attempt to discredit the story...NOT proclaim it.
KayMarie
KayMarie says.......Secular sources, then as now, doggedly attempt to discredit the story...NOT proclaim it.

If someone brought me back from the dead, whether secular, jewish, pagan etc. I would be telling my story to everyone in sight.

The 3 major religions all acknowledge that there was a Jesus. ONLY ONE religion claims him to be the son of God.

Do I believe there was a Jesus? Quite possibly. Was he the son of God? I don't believe so. I don't believe in the trinity.

3 equal persons (persons means human)in one god, yet in the scriptures it appears that God the father calls the shots for the other two persons in God. I thought they were all equal. Wrong again!
Fr Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

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#404792
Nov 25, 2012
 

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Free Mind wrote:
<quoted text>
The point is one that few Catholics get -- e.g. if the RCC were truly appointed and guided by God in matters of faith and morals -- then there would have been no immoral, faithless Inquisitions in the name of Jesus, period.
The Greatest Power in in Universe did not allow its appointee to carry out such crimes.
History and reality render the One-True claim 100% absurd.
.
B your (flawed) logic, Israel was never appointed or guided by God, or they would never have become involved in idolatry ever again. They would never have failed to hear the cry of the poor in their midst. They would never have failed to live Od's law.
.
But they did all these things, despite what God was calling them towards, and God allowed punishment to come down upon them, time and again, always bringing forward a faithful remnant.
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The Church is not perfect. You can see that in the prayers of the Church. We ask to be cleaned of all sin, and kept free from all sin.
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It makes no sense to pray this way, unless we can see the opposite happening.
.
Rob
Dust Storm

Pipestone, MN

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#404793
Nov 25, 2012
 
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Dust Storm good friend
I believe,(and I am sure Father Rob), that infant baptism has infused virtues....
The question comes in as to a person's ability to reason at infancy, and therefore the effects of the infused cardinal virtues are difficult to realize see.
Infants display cardinal virtues of faith, hope, love, especially towards their parents, which is easily seen. But do not display for instance prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude until years later. And for all purposes the age of reason is a good place that they seem to begin in an affective way(IMHO).
All well and good.

Well I cannot speak for Fr Rob, but the summation of the argument is that Christ said water and spirit and its regenerative. We know that some Protestants today argue that baptism is not necessary at all nor is rengenerative but merely a symbolic gesture. Some argue about how it needs to be done, others argue about when it should be done and the age of reason will vary from church to church and culture. Some say it has nothing to do with water and outline various types of baptism. Some say its only valid if you do it in the name of Jesus, some say in the name of the creator. I dont think its that complicated. Its not a bath as Peter says. In faith we accept the gift offered for our children and the new convenant.

The Lord was angry when Moses wife did not want their child to be circumcized. It was a command and it was a sign of the covenant a work carried out in faith. The faith of the Centurion and the faith of the Parents. A Jewish person could of course reject the Jewish faith upon the age of reason just as a Catholic does not have to reaffirm their baptismal vows or participate in confirmation or leave the church. We have free will to walk away from God and reject Christ.

We can nurture our faith or suppress it. We can seek knowledge or we can avoid it. We can look for answers outside the church or within it. We can look to the beginning for old questions that repeat themselves or we can ignore them.

I believe it is a gift for children. The Jewish baby girls were cermeonially washed. St Paul did not just believe he got baptized. I would rather accept this gift for you and your children in faith knowing that God is a merciful God and believe that while we are bound by the sacraments the Lord is not. He said to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#404794
Nov 25, 2012
 
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Michael"
More conflicting bible stories.......
.......... The hometown of Jesus' parents, neither gospel can agree where it was. Matthew says they live in Bethlehem in Judea, while Luke says they lived in Nazareth in Galilee.
I thought these gospels were the inspired "accurate" words of God?
.....something is wrong!
**********
Read the whole thing more carefully. Jesus was born in Bethlehem. He was taken to Egypt until Herod died. Then the family moved to Nazareth.
KayMarie
KayMarie.....

If both Joseph and Mary knew that Jesus had no human father, why would they have not told Jesus so? And if they did, why did Jesus not claim from the beginning that his miraculous birth was proof that he was divine?

Why, if this man was hailed by so many at his birth as the savior of Israel, did the people of his hometown place no credence in him (Matt. 13:53-58) and why was his true nature such a startling discovery by his disciples so late in his career (Matt. 16:15-17)?

Jesus own brothers did not believe him to be the son of God. Why? Mary and Jesus brothers had to go and retrieve Jesus when he was speaking for they claimed he was out of his mind.

something is wrong!
marge

Ames, IA

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#404795
Nov 25, 2012
 

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Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Dust Storm good friend
I believe,(and I am sure Father Rob), that infant baptism has infused virtues....
The question comes in as to a person's ability to reason at infancy, and therefore the effects of the infused cardinal virtues are difficult to realize see.
Infants display cardinal virtues of faith, hope, love, especially towards their parents, which is easily seen. But do not display for instance prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude until years later. And for all purposes the age of reason is a good place that they seem to begin in an affective way(IMHO).
If infant baptism or any water-baptism had infused virtues, not Scriptual, not proven.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#404796
Nov 25, 2012
 
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Michael"
.......There are differences in the nativity story which serve to lessen its credibility. As an example, in an attempt to parallel the importance of Jesus' birth with that of Moses, Matthew describes the massacre of the children of Bethlehem by king Herod as he attempts to kill the infant messiah.
This extraordinary event is not attested to by any SECULAR SOURCE from that period, nor even referred to by Luke. Indeed, Luke has the family return peacefully, to Nazareth after Jesus' birth in Bethlehem (Luke 2:22,39).
If the massacre did take place, it does not make sense that Herod's son later on does not recall the event by his father about Jesus nor his importance (Matt. 14:1-2). Moreover, if Herod and all the people of Jerusalem knew of the messiah's birth (Matt. 2:3), why is it that later in Jesus' life, the "same" author claims that people had not heard of his miraculous origin and still questioned his miracles and his teachings (Matt. 13:54-56)?
.....conflicting information or what!
....something is wrong DustStorm...
**********
Secular sources, then as now, doggedly attempt to discredit the story...NOT proclaim it.
KayMarie
There are clear indications that the virgin birth story was a later addition or invention, given that it does not bode well with the original accounts of the life of Jesus. Example, in other gospel passages Mary shows little or no understanding of Jesus and his special role.

According to Luke, the message of the angel Gabriel made it perfectly clear to Mary that Jesus was ordained to be the messiah, the king and savior of Israel. This message was also reinforced by the prophesies of Simeon and Anna (Luke 2:34,38)

Surely, such predictions and the miracle of her virginal conception would have indicated to Mary that Jesus was someone special, if not divine. Yet Mary does not understand Jesus' reference to the temple as his father's house (Luke 2:48-50).

Every king or pagan savior from the past acknowledged their special purpose from the very beginning. Yet Jesus went 33 years and still couldn't convince his jewish brethern who he was as christian tradition teaches.

Was the entire Jesus story fabricated and the ending having to be that Jesus went from helping the poor to becoming a rebel rouser or serious trouble maker and make the jewish leaders so mad they wanted to kill him.

Scriptures claim 10s of thousands of jews loved this Jesus, and no enemies in sight, yet a very very short time later, no one loves this man anymore because no supporters show up at his crucifixion.

Jesus or Barabas.....they were given a choice. The crowd determined the fate of this man as christian tradition ONLY teaches. What would have happened if the crowd flipped a coin and it was Barabas to be crucified. Afterall the scriptures said it was a choice between jesus or barabas. How would christianity have ever started if Barabas was crucified?

makes no common sense.....
Dust Storm

Pipestone, MN

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#404797
Nov 25, 2012
 

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Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
There is a difference between what is "truly necessary" and what is "allowed."
.
From its origins, the Church has alway allowed infant baptism.
.
We have rocked back and forth as to whether it is truly necessary.
.
For example, if we regard that infants who die before baptism have no salvation, then it would be silly to have a mass of Christian Burial for them. But with the children of Christians, the Church does this, commending such children to God's mercy.
.
Jesus said we must be born again, of water and the Spirit. There it is. Thunk.
.
So ... how to deal with the parents of a child who has died, when we have refused them baptism because they have not attained the age of reason?
.
It makes much more sense to do (as the very early Church seems to have done) baptism for infants presented to the Church for this, and continue in catechesis when they are capable of receiving it. The Holy Spirit can act as He chooses, and if He chooses to pour out sufficient grace for Heaven on an infant, baptized or unbaptized, who would we be to question it?
.
God is not bound by the sacraments, but WE ARE, and shoukd not act as roadblocks to God's grace.
.
Rob
Thank you for that clarification. See my post to Robert.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#404798
Nov 25, 2012
 
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
You sick, demented and foolish woman. The Pope never justied any of what you claim. Apparently it is your Christian duty to lie and slander.
The Pope is the CEO, the top banana, the buck stops here! of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. Shouldn't the Pope had known?

Back in the 1970s/80s in german catholic dioceses when sex abuse by clergy was running rampant. The current Pope today was a priest and a bishop in germany then. Your damn right he would have known what was going on back then, yet when the abuse scandals broke in the news a few years back including Germany the Pope acted dumbfounded as if he had no knowledge of abuses going on anywhere.


makes no common sense...
Clay

United States

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#404799
Nov 25, 2012
 

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Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
More conflicting bible stories.......
.......... The hometown of Jesus' parents, neither gospel can agree where it was. Matthew says they live in Bethlehem in Judea, while Luke says they lived in Nazareth in Galilee.
I thought these gospels were the inspired "accurate" words of God?
.....something is wrong!
You try desperately to convince Catholics to care about your assertions... But we don't.
Your stuff doesn't matter to us. It only matters to you. I'm sorry man, you don't offer anything fresh or shocking. I
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#404800
Nov 25, 2012
 

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Like all catholics from a young age I was taught that God has a divine plan for all his creation.

He sat down figured out a plan, checked his plan, determined it was a good plan, created the earth and all its creations. The plan was that God would know everything before it actually happened. He would know when someone was going to be sick, when someone was destined to die, when animals got sick and died when plants grow and are harevested. Gods plan knew everything.

Along comes mankind who decides that after awhile they are not happy with things and they start to pray. Praying to God to change something from its present form. Trying to change Gods plan.

Everyday now BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of prayers prayed to God wanting God to change his plan.

I am sure God wonders what was the point in me making a divine plan if every smuck coming along prays and tries to change my plan.

Praying makes the person praying feel good. Other than that it serves no purpose. I do not pray I figure things out myself. If it doesn't work it wasn't meant to be. At 63 I am doing just fine.
Fr Robert Dye

Tulsa, OK

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#404801
Nov 25, 2012
 
4GVN wrote:
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
Uhmmmm ...
Which strikes me as absurd. I'll grant, I don't know of any god to compare God to, but it seems to me that, if God is truly Good, He would not condemn unbaptised infants.
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Jesus DID say it was necessary, but He also seems to make exceptions, such as the Good Thief.
Rob
.
Rob
Rob, have you truely considered the possibility that Jesus 'does not make exceptions' but perhaps there is a flaw in the understanding of what the 'GOSPEL' truely is and what part if any, baptism has in ones salvation. And perhaps there is a misunderstanding of what 'born of water' truely means. Is it possible that it is not in referance to water baptism at all?
.
I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation, and all who are capable of hearing that and understanding it are bound by it.
.Does this mean that Jesus Himself is bound by it? I don't see why He would be.
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Jesus is the One in Charge. If He chooses to make exceotions to His own rule, who are we to question that.
.We know the rule, and should be following it.
.
Infants cannot know the rule, and I seriously doubt that God would hold them to it.(Might He hold their parents to it? it's possible ...)
.
We do what we can. With infants, if we are going to err, we will err on the side of caution, and baptize.
.I cannot find your earlier post, so I will try to address it as best I can from memory.
.
It is my belief that baptism of infants confers grace. Does this involve the HS? Yes, of course. All graces involve all the Persons of the Trinity.
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Is the grace received at baptism of an infant (or an adult, really) the same as being "born from above?"
.
Well, we need to be careful not to be twisted up by semantics.
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ALL grace comes "from above." so, is a person born again from water (baptism) "born from above?"
.
Well ... in a manner of speaking... yessssss ...
.
But Jesus spoke of this as two different things, so let us treat them as two different thing.
.Jesus said we must be reborn of water and the Spirit.
.
Okay. The water part is easy. It is the "death of baptism," the symbolic drowning, and coming back up out of the water ... this is "born again of water.
.
Born of the Spirit seems to imply some new relationship to the Spirit. If we treat it as analogous to baptism (and Jesus DID speak of both in the same breath, so linking them this way is not without justification), then it would be a "death to our old life, and a rising to a new life." A "death" to the life of sin, and a "rising" to a new life of virtue.
.
In other words, just getting baptized won't do it, at least not for anyone capable of doing more.
.
Luke 3:

"7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

They are called not just to the eternal sign (baptism), but to live an INTERNAL one as well, repentance.
.
Do infants receive grace from the HS at baptism? Of course.
.
Are they capable of living repentance?
.
No, not at all.
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When they DO become capable of repentance, and they do repent, do they enter into a new and DEEPER relationship with the Holy Spirit?
.
I woukd insist that they do, and that it wad this that Jesus refers to.
.
Rob
Truth

Leesburg, VA

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#404802
Nov 25, 2012
 
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Truth good friend
I don't think I disagree with you here.
But in theory can anyone be "old enough" to believe, or only have faith within themselves to make a decision for Christ? Conversion may be quick or long in coming. In some, like Paul's "quick" conversion, it takes being aware, and understanding the Gospel working in our minds, but also for God to touch us in a supernatural way, to make us alive in Christ, and then repent of former ways....
So there are two aspects of baptism. It therefore behoves us to be an instrument of God to carry out baptism of infants. As this may begin God's touching them at an early age....Later on the repentance and decision is made....
So it doesn't matter which order this happens.
Robert,

Baptism is not only an obedient response...it is also an IMMEDIATE response to our salvation by Christ.

How can an infant/small child have an OBEDIENT and IMMEDIATE response to their salvation by Christ???
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#404803
Nov 25, 2012
 
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
You try desperately to convince Catholics to care about your assertions... But we don't.
Your stuff doesn't matter to us. It only matters to you. I'm sorry man, you don't offer anything fresh or shocking. I
Claypool says.....Your stuff doesn't matter to us.

Michael says.......Thanks for reading my post! That is what matters to me.
hojo

Chanhassen, MN

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#404804
Nov 25, 2012
 

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Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
A monk devised the calendar back in the 6th century. Somehow he made some miscalculations.
READ BELOW.....IMPORTANT.
Its been known for centuries that there was conflict in the gospel of Matthew and Luke as ot the birth of Jesus.
Matthew claims that the birth of Jesus occurred during the reign of Herod the Great of Judea, whom we know died in 4 B.C.
Luke also tells us that Jesus' birth happened during Herod's reign. Luke even adds what appears to be detailed and historical evidence of the period. He writes that Jesus was born during a census or registration of the populace ordered by emperor Augustus at the time that Quirinius (Cyrenius) was Roman governor of Syria (Luke 2:1-3). In reality, this has to be a fabrication because Quirinius was not governor of Syria and Judea during Herod's kingship. Direct Roman rule over the province of Judea, where Bethlehem was located, was not established until 6 A.D. In other words, ten years separated the rule of Quirinius from Herod.
If the census did take place, it was in the year 6 CE, long after Herod's death. Therefore, Matthew's stories of the Wise Men's visit to Herod and the Christchild, and Herod's massacre of the innocents which caused the holy family to flee to Egypt, are all historically impossible. Moreover, it should be noted that Luke also got his facts wrong about the census of Augustus. Such an imperial census would only apply to Roman citizens of the empire, not to Joseph, a Galilean who was not under direct Roman rule.
...something is terribly wrong!
You keep asking "what is wrong" and we keep telling you to "look in the mirror" and you will get your answer!!
Dust Storm

Pipestone, MN

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#404805
Nov 25, 2012
 
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
DustStorm says......The problem comes when people defy the church and do what they want in defiance of the church.
Michael says.....the church does not control peoples lives (maybe yours)
You see Duststorm you practice faith instead of conscious living, you live under a cloak of fear. It teaches you to fear being different, fear standing up for yourself, and fear of being an independant thinker like myself.
You practice that you are unworthy, a sinner, and unclean. I don't practice that.
Your reasoning is always the same. You submit to the will of an external authority. You believe you are inadequate if you don't submit to this authority.
YOu give away your personal power, you follow their rules and procedures, and live in fear the rest of your life hoping what you are doing is pleasing God, and just maybe it will turn out OK at the end..
Yeah Mikey I know you are an anarchist. You dont follow any rules. You should let the police know and stop paying taxes or do you live in fear? lol Y

You submit to the will of an external authority. blah blah blah. I dont submit to the will of Mikey and the world according to Mikey.

I will be sure to let myself know I am afraid because you said so.

I was addressing your impotent point Dr. Deflecto. A priest does not make a vow before God because they have to. They chose it. Furthermore a Catholic has a right to discuss a discipline and how it may benefit the church to change it. So your ridiculous assertions that those who question it somehow is beyond reproach is amusing at best and only serves to fill your crowded tray of fodder. There are proper ways to do things. You keep saying women priests. There are no women priests.

The Apostles did have some boundaries and yes they had their Mikeys to deal with just like Moses did. You must have been self employed or did you live in fear of rules? LOL
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#404806
Nov 25, 2012
 
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
You asserted it with implications and again I asked you to post his exact words in context and the sources not an article.
Regardless there is nothing in this article that is remotely disturbing about what the Pope wrote is there? I dont recall any Christmas trees being in the Nativity scene.
The article says:
The assertion that the Christian calendar is based on a false premise is not new - many historians believe Christ was born sometime between 7 BC and 2 BC.
Yeah his exact birth date is almost as mysterious as where and when Obama was born. lol
The article then states:
But the fact that doubts over one of the keystones of Christian tradition have been raised by the leader of the world's one billion Roman Catholics is striking.
Striking to whom? The exact date of his birth and what has been discussed over the centuries is not a secret. You are just throwing out fodder. Heck I can all kinds of people who dont have birth certificates. I also know that dates of people being born vary in the church and state provided they have any documentation. The emphasis on knowing the precise date doesnt reflect the culture. Do you know where Moses and Marys bones are? Does it prove they never existed? NO
......Back in ancient times it was often claimed that important people had miraculous births.

Plato was said to have been born by the union of the god Apollo with his mother. Likewise, Alexander the Great was said to have been conceived when a thunderbolt fell from heaven and made his mother Olympias pregnant before her marriage to Philip of Macedon.

miraculous births are old hat......read your history Dusty.

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