Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

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The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. Full Story
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#404803 Nov 25, 2012
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
You try desperately to convince Catholics to care about your assertions... But we don't.
Your stuff doesn't matter to us. It only matters to you. I'm sorry man, you don't offer anything fresh or shocking. I
Claypool says.....Your stuff doesn't matter to us.

Michael says.......Thanks for reading my post! That is what matters to me.
hojo

Chanhassen, MN

#404804 Nov 25, 2012
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
A monk devised the calendar back in the 6th century. Somehow he made some miscalculations.
READ BELOW.....IMPORTANT.
Its been known for centuries that there was conflict in the gospel of Matthew and Luke as ot the birth of Jesus.
Matthew claims that the birth of Jesus occurred during the reign of Herod the Great of Judea, whom we know died in 4 B.C.
Luke also tells us that Jesus' birth happened during Herod's reign. Luke even adds what appears to be detailed and historical evidence of the period. He writes that Jesus was born during a census or registration of the populace ordered by emperor Augustus at the time that Quirinius (Cyrenius) was Roman governor of Syria (Luke 2:1-3). In reality, this has to be a fabrication because Quirinius was not governor of Syria and Judea during Herod's kingship. Direct Roman rule over the province of Judea, where Bethlehem was located, was not established until 6 A.D. In other words, ten years separated the rule of Quirinius from Herod.
If the census did take place, it was in the year 6 CE, long after Herod's death. Therefore, Matthew's stories of the Wise Men's visit to Herod and the Christchild, and Herod's massacre of the innocents which caused the holy family to flee to Egypt, are all historically impossible. Moreover, it should be noted that Luke also got his facts wrong about the census of Augustus. Such an imperial census would only apply to Roman citizens of the empire, not to Joseph, a Galilean who was not under direct Roman rule.
...something is terribly wrong!
You keep asking "what is wrong" and we keep telling you to "look in the mirror" and you will get your answer!!
Dust Storm

Pennock, MN

#404805 Nov 25, 2012
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
DustStorm says......The problem comes when people defy the church and do what they want in defiance of the church.
Michael says.....the church does not control peoples lives (maybe yours)
You see Duststorm you practice faith instead of conscious living, you live under a cloak of fear. It teaches you to fear being different, fear standing up for yourself, and fear of being an independant thinker like myself.
You practice that you are unworthy, a sinner, and unclean. I don't practice that.
Your reasoning is always the same. You submit to the will of an external authority. You believe you are inadequate if you don't submit to this authority.
YOu give away your personal power, you follow their rules and procedures, and live in fear the rest of your life hoping what you are doing is pleasing God, and just maybe it will turn out OK at the end..
Yeah Mikey I know you are an anarchist. You dont follow any rules. You should let the police know and stop paying taxes or do you live in fear? lol Y

You submit to the will of an external authority. blah blah blah. I dont submit to the will of Mikey and the world according to Mikey.

I will be sure to let myself know I am afraid because you said so.

I was addressing your impotent point Dr. Deflecto. A priest does not make a vow before God because they have to. They chose it. Furthermore a Catholic has a right to discuss a discipline and how it may benefit the church to change it. So your ridiculous assertions that those who question it somehow is beyond reproach is amusing at best and only serves to fill your crowded tray of fodder. There are proper ways to do things. You keep saying women priests. There are no women priests.

The Apostles did have some boundaries and yes they had their Mikeys to deal with just like Moses did. You must have been self employed or did you live in fear of rules? LOL
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#404806 Nov 25, 2012
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
You asserted it with implications and again I asked you to post his exact words in context and the sources not an article.
Regardless there is nothing in this article that is remotely disturbing about what the Pope wrote is there? I dont recall any Christmas trees being in the Nativity scene.
The article says:
The assertion that the Christian calendar is based on a false premise is not new - many historians believe Christ was born sometime between 7 BC and 2 BC.
Yeah his exact birth date is almost as mysterious as where and when Obama was born. lol
The article then states:
But the fact that doubts over one of the keystones of Christian tradition have been raised by the leader of the world's one billion Roman Catholics is striking.
Striking to whom? The exact date of his birth and what has been discussed over the centuries is not a secret. You are just throwing out fodder. Heck I can all kinds of people who dont have birth certificates. I also know that dates of people being born vary in the church and state provided they have any documentation. The emphasis on knowing the precise date doesnt reflect the culture. Do you know where Moses and Marys bones are? Does it prove they never existed? NO
......Back in ancient times it was often claimed that important people had miraculous births.

Plato was said to have been born by the union of the god Apollo with his mother. Likewise, Alexander the Great was said to have been conceived when a thunderbolt fell from heaven and made his mother Olympias pregnant before her marriage to Philip of Macedon.

miraculous births are old hat......read your history Dusty.

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404807 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
We are not allowed to come to God on our own terms (God's will).....we must come to Him on His terms (not man's will.)
Truth good friend

True...But what about the children? Remember, Jesus said,
" Let the come unto me(on their own terms), of such are the kingdom of Heaven."....Babies are to small to crawl or walk yet. They are smaller children(smile).

So it would seem children(on their own terms) are more "connected" to heaven than adults, the way I see Jesus' remark about them. But of course he made a teaching out of it too.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#404808 Nov 25, 2012
.......DustStorm......

In the book of Genesis we read that sons of gods had intercourse with women to produce heroes (Gen. 6:4). Even the recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls tell of the miraculous birth of Noah and how his father Lamech was suspicious that his wife had been made pregnant by an angel.

Its clearly obvious that christianity has very little unique about it. The only thing that they figured out was that if families indoctrinated their children generation after generation the belief would continue.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#404809 Nov 25, 2012
confrinting with the word wrote:
who="Michael"
.......There are differences in the nativity story which serve to lessen its credibility. As an example, in an attempt to parallel the importance of Jesus' birth with that of Moses, Matthew describes the massacre of the children of Bethlehem by king Herod as he attempts to kill the infant messiah.
This extraordinary event is not attested to by any SECULAR SOURCE from that period, nor even referred to by Luke. Indeed, Luke has the family return peacefully, to Nazareth after Jesus' birth in Bethlehem (Luke 2:22,39).
If the massacre did take place, it does not make sense that Herod's son later on does not recall the event by his father about Jesus nor his importance (Matt. 14:1-2). Moreover, if Herod and all the people of Jerusalem knew of the messiah's birth (Matt. 2:3), why is it that later in Jesus' life, the "same" author claims that people had not heard of his miraculous origin and still questioned his miracles and his teachings (Matt. 13:54-56)?
.....conflicting information or what!
....something is wrong DustStorm...
**********
Secular sources, then as now, doggedly attempt to discredit the story...NOT proclaim it.
KayMarie
....... The recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls tell us of the miraculous birth of Noah and how his father Lamech was suspicious that his wife had been made pregnant by an angel.

... Also the writings of Philo of Alexandria, who was born about 20 B.C., contain evidence that some Jews of the period were speculating about miraculous births of religious heroes. Philo relates how Hebrew notables such as Isaac and Samuel were conceived by barren women by the intervention of the divine Spirit.

http://pocm.info/

Not much unique about christianity is there.....
Truth

Leesburg, VA

#404810 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
Baptism is not only an obedient response...it is also an IMMEDIATE response to our salvation by Christ.
How can an infant/small child have an OBEDIENT and IMMEDIATE response to their salvation by Christ???
Robert,

Preaching the Word of God brings about IMMEDIATE conviction to their hearts and converts them to the TRUTH.

How can this be done to an infant/small child???

Preaching the Word of God should be leaving a MESSAGE within their hearts (CONVICTION OF THEIR SINS).....I love you too much to see you lose your soul.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404811 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Robert I agree with your post and yes we must associate with sinners and try to save them God-willing.
But i was talking about those who claim to be of the true church when their works show they are evil.
Thanks again for the post and blessings to you.
marge, you havent changed which is why I have said this forum has declined in intelligence since.

you speak about the "true church" yet you call Orville who as called me a demon and prayed that God would kill me. a "brother".

orville is certainly not a Christian, tho you qualify as his brother. he is evil and you are stupid.

PRAYER
and what God is listening for
praying and thinking
bother the Father
God listens to prayers
Praying for enemies
for personal prayer requests
Prayer pdf document download
(more at end)
Praying Amiss:
puppeteering
the laundry list mentality
labeling and name-calling
comparing
using God to your advantage

getting God to back your plan
SORRY. ORVILLE BUT GOD ISNT GOING TO ANSWE THISPAYE, ALL IT DOES IS SHOW THAT YOU BELONG TO SATAN AND ANY PERSON WHO CALLS YOU A BROTHER IN CHRIST IS AS GUILTY AS YOU ARE AND WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDINGLY. OSAS WILL NOT HELP YOU EITHER .

MARGE.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404812 Nov 25, 2012
Michael wrote:
<quoted text>
Claypool says.....Your stuff doesn't matter to us.
Michael says.......Thanks for reading my post! That is what matters to me.
mike, you think that you are smarter than the rest of us(and dont deny it) and yet you havent realized that your idiotic posts give us an opportunity to voice our concerns and show people that doing nothing is not an option, there is a judgement that you, like me, will have to face one day and you at 63 better be doing some fast thinking. you are closer now than you were 20 years ago,

on 8/25/82, I sent my sins on before me, unless you get Saved and do the same, your sins will follow you and you will not like the verdict the Judge hands down to you.
marge

Ames, IA

#404813 Nov 25, 2012
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation, and all who are capable of hearing that and understanding it are bound by it.
.Does this mean that Jesus Himself is bound by it? I don't see why He would be.
.
Jesus is the One in Charge. If He chooses to make exceotions to His own rule, who are we to question that.
.We know the rule, and should be following it.
.
Infants cannot know the rule, and I seriously doubt that God would hold them to it.(Might He hold their parents to it? it's possible ...)
.
We do what we can. With infants, if we are going to err, we will err on the side of caution, and baptize.
.I cannot find your earlier post, so I will try to address it as best I can from memory.
.
It is my belief that baptism of infants confers grace. Does this involve the HS? Yes, of course. All graces involve all the Persons of the Trinity.
.
Is the grace received at baptism of an infant (or an adult, really) the same as being "born from above?"
.
Well, we need to be careful not to be twisted up by semantics.
.
ALL grace comes "from above." so, is a person born again from water (baptism) "born from above?"
.
Well ... in a manner of speaking... yessssss ...
.
But Jesus spoke of this as two different things, so let us treat them as two different thing.
.Jesus said we must be reborn of water and the Spirit.
.
Okay. The water part is easy. It is the "death of baptism," the symbolic drowning, and coming back up out of the water ... this is "born again of water.
.
Born of the Spirit seems to imply some new relationship to the Spirit. If we treat it as analogous to baptism (and Jesus DID speak of both in the same breath, so linking them this way is not without justification), then it would be a "death to our old life, and a rising to a new life." A "death" to the life of sin, and a "rising" to a new life of virtue.
.
In other words, just getting baptized won't do it, at least not for anyone capable of doing more.
.
Luke 3:
"7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
They are called not just to the eternal sign (baptism), but to live an INTERNAL one as well, repentance.
.
Do infants receive grace from the HS at baptism? Of course.
.
Are they capable of living repentance?
.
No, not at all.
.
When they DO become capable of repentance, and they do repent, do they enter into a new and DEEPER relationship with the Holy Spirit?
.
I woukd insist that they do, and that it wad this that Jesus refers to.
.
Rob
wow how off base and your a teacher.
Free Mind

Pinellas Park, FL

#404814 Nov 25, 2012
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
B your (flawed) logic, Israel was never appointed or guided by God, or they would never have become involved in idolatry ever again. They would never have failed to hear the cry of the poor in their midst. They would never have failed to live Od's law.
.
But they did all these things, despite what God was calling them towards, and God allowed punishment to come down upon them, time and again, always bringing forward a faithful remnant.
.
The Church is not perfect. You can see that in the prayers of the Church. We ask to be cleaned of all sin, and kept free from all sin.
.
It makes no sense to pray this way, unless we can see the opposite happening.
.
Rob
Your logic makes the assumption that Israel was somehow "appointed" (chosen?) by God.

That is a matter of faith. It cannot be proven or tested.

But if Israel was somehow chosen by God, looking at history, maybe it would be better not to have been chosen.

You have to admit, that OT God was a mean and vengeful guy. Much meaner than the other deities of the earth's first cities.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404815 Nov 25, 2012
Michael said:
Christmas trees are a pagan tradition.
Pictures and statues of jesus have him with long hair and a beard. Did he have long hair and a beard?
Traditions, traditions, things are added along the way to add DRAMA to the story

ME;

you ought to ask someone who has seen Him, not someone who doesnt know Him.

Yes, he does have long hair, and it goes over His shouldes and he also has a beard.

sorry that I cant tell you how tall that He is, we both were sitting.

and tho all that I saw was in profile, what stood out was his countenance and the eye that I could see,

and what I saw, did agree with what I later, much later in fact read about him

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404816 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
True disciples are called to lay something down....
How does this fit into being baptized as an infant/small child???
"Let him deny himself"
Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
How could anyone apply this verse to an infant being baptized???
Truth good friend

On the surface, the first thing is that Paul was already a pretty old guy, and a Jew, before he repented and became a Christian, not an infant or a child. So Gal 2:20 is not the central issue in baptism. But as a Jew it seems he lived according to the various laws including circumcision, which is a "sign" of faith back to Abraham.

Likewise, baptism is a "sign" of faith, in similar manner as circumcision.

So I think baptism (especially of infants) is not so much a "laying down" as what you mean in the sense of being dead and buried with Christ, as much as it is a "sign" of faith.

Signs have a pretty expansive meaning and understanding. But in short, in the case of circumcision and baptism it is observable as a seal of a covenant....
marge

Ames, IA

#404817 Nov 25, 2012
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Robert,
Baptism is not only an obedient response...it is also an IMMEDIATE response to our salvation by Christ.
How can an infant/small child have an OBEDIENT and IMMEDIATE response to their salvation by Christ???
John baptized you with water but He Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
7th Day Catholics Rock

Poplar Bluff, MO

#404818 Nov 25, 2012
Robert F wrote:
<quoted text>
Seraphima good friend
Glad to hear about Hermi....Advent begins in one week....
Whats was gong on Saturday evening about 4 o'clock I seen a whole lotta mackrel snappers congregated around the RCC here.
marge

Ames, IA

#404819 Nov 25, 2012
See, here we have an example(Preston) of someone claiming to be part of the true church, these do not eat with.
preston

Waverly, OH

#404820 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
wow how off base and your a teacher.
any person that has read your posts for any length of time has recognized that you arent very much of a student.

remember when you tried to use the garden episode to try and prove your understanding of OSAS.and you didnt read the "rest of the story" when John fully explained that it had been fully discharged that night.

if you cant get that right, how would you understand what ROB is saying.

the answer is obvious, you dont have the intelligence.

continue to listen to mr and mrs fraud, after 125 years, they dont know what they are talking about either.

Since: Dec 06

Location hidden

#404821 Nov 25, 2012
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Robert I agree with your post and yes we must associate with sinners and try to save them God-willing.
But i was talking about those who claim to be of the true church when their works show they are evil.
Thanks again for the post and blessings to you.
marge good friend

I know(smile) what you meant.

I was just showing you a little history, and those you might consider not to be of the true church actually face a similar dilemma as you.

Glad you agree....
marge

Ames, IA

#404822 Nov 25, 2012
Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation, and all who are capable of hearing that and understanding it are bound by it.
.Does this mean that Jesus Himself is bound by it? I don't see why He would be.
.
Jesus is the One in Charge. If He chooses to make exceotions to His own rule, who are we to question that.
.We know the rule, and should be following it.
.
Infants cannot know the rule, and I seriously doubt that God would hold them to it.(Might He hold their parents to it? it's possible ...)
.
We do what we can. With infants, if we are going to err, we will err on the side of caution, and baptize.
.I cannot find your earlier post, so I will try to address it as best I can from memory.
.
It is my belief that baptism of infants confers grace. Does this involve the HS? Yes, of course. All graces involve all the Persons of the Trinity.
.
Is the grace received at baptism of an infant (or an adult, really) the same as being "born from above?"
.
Well, we need to be careful not to be twisted up by semantics.
.
ALL grace comes "from above." so, is a person born again from water (baptism) "born from above?"
.
Well ... in a manner of speaking... yessssss ...
.
But Jesus spoke of this as two different things, so let us treat them as two different thing.
.Jesus said we must be reborn of water and the Spirit.
.
Okay. The water part is easy. It is the "death of baptism," the symbolic drowning, and coming back up out of the water ... this is "born again of water.
.
Born of the Spirit seems to imply some new relationship to the Spirit. If we treat it as analogous to baptism (and Jesus DID speak of both in the same breath, so linking them this way is not without justification), then it would be a "death to our old life, and a rising to a new life." A "death" to the life of sin, and a "rising" to a new life of virtue.
.
In other words, just getting baptized won't do it, at least not for anyone capable of doing more.
.
Luke 3:
"7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
They are called not just to the eternal sign (baptism), but to live an INTERNAL one as well, repentance.
.
Do infants receive grace from the HS at baptism? Of course.
.
Are they capable of living repentance?
.
No, not at all.
.
When they DO become capable of repentance, and they do repent, do they enter into a new and DEEPER relationship with the Holy Spirit?
.
I woukd insist that they do, and that it wad this that Jesus refers to.
.
Rob
sorry Rob but I can't believe you said this;

"I don't think there is any question that the Christ commanded water baptism as a condition of salvation,"

No No, Salvation is a GIFT, gifts have no conditions.

You don't even know the Gospel Rob, Repent already.

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