All Catholics must promote church's mission, Lincoln's new bishop says

Dec 6, 2012 Full story: Cdowk.org 124

Bishop Conley began ministry as a priest for the Diocese of Wichita LINCOLN, Neb.

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Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#63 Jan 9, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course, Pax.
I don't blame the Church for a peculiar concentration of pedophiles. Pedophiles are sick people who cannot - are obsessed - recognize personal boundaries and are intent upon wrecking innocence. It is a monstrously vicious thing that they do.
Anywhere children, especially boys, congregate; whether schools, churches or institutions catering to young boys, such as the Boy Scouts, there will be an attempt by pedophiles to enter and prey.
In the last few years, institutions have begun to implement conduct standards and practices that minimize the opportunities for pedophiles to successfully isolate and prey on innocent children. These are good practices.
But, I must comment that the Vow of Celibacy is fraught with unusual difficulties. One must consider that the reasons for taking the vow in the first place may often be that an individual seeking to define his or her sexual behavior by total abstinence is already perceiving him or herself to be sexually hindered.
Furthermore, closed and cloistered societies and hierarchical institutions favor the action of subducting unfavorable practices. They start long-lasting habits and then they propagate these habits. Then they hide them in order to preserve order and avoid criticism. Want an example? Try the Military. How about the Bar Associations. It is an old adage that describes the fox guarding the chicken coop.
As much good as the Roman Church does, and it does plenty, it still has not come to grips with the problems. In fact, it is presently trying to misdirect attention by going after its homosexual priests.
The answer is to expose the homosexuality and encourage either absolute celibacy or marriage of its clergy, including ordination of male and female. That, the Lay Church Membership could both understand and accept.
That day will come.
Rev. Ken
Married priests or women priests becoming the norm in the Catholic Church has no bearing on the reality of pedophiles in the Church or in the larger society. Persons who prey on children can and do attempt to hide what they are with a wedding ring as others attempt to hide behind the Roman collar. Unfortunately with the upheval in the Episcopal Church over women priests and openly practicing homosexuals as priests and bishops does little to back your statement that "the Lay Church Membership could both understand and accept". Some may but unless all do all that would come of it is more schism.
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#64 Jan 9, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. The sex drive is inborn and very powerful. Since the days of Sigmund Freud psychologists have understood that repression of the sexual drive is the root problem of many harmful and other abnormal behaviors.
“Sexuality is the key to the problem of the psychoneuroses and of the neuroses in general. No one who disdains the key will ever be able to unlock the door.”— Sigmund Freud
There are many who do not fully agree with Freud on this issue. Sexuality may be "a" key and a useful one at that but to see it as the only key leaves much out of the picture of what makes humans choose "abnormal behaviors."
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#65 Jan 9, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, to Joe's and my point;
Married men assumptively don't have their sex drive completely repressed. They commmit pedophilia.
Non-celibate people, period, commit pedophilia in numbers I'd wager far exceed that of those self-identifying as celibate.
I think people that have a normal outlet for their innate sex drive (marriage or relationship) would tend to have less abnormal expressions of that sexual energy. I think celebacy is a much more difficult thing than the Church realizes or cares to admit.

"Many young men at a very early age were recruited into it before they understood themselves or their own sexual identity," Kennedy says. "Their psycho-sexual maturation has been put on hold, so to speak, when they go in. So as a result they tend to act out with young people who were more or less the age they were when their maturation process stopped." - Eugene Kennedy, former priest, as quoted by Judy Muller ABC News
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#66 Jan 9, 2013
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many who do not fully agree with Freud on this issue. Sexuality may be "a" key and a useful one at that but to see it as the only key leaves much out of the picture of what makes humans choose "abnormal behaviors."
Human psychology is very complex and far from being an exact science. However, researchers have found strong correlations between abnormal sexual development and various deviant behaviors. Sexual desire is not a learned behavior it is hormonal. Once it’s turned on it can’t just be turned off like some childish imaginary desire without some consequences. A life of celibacy is not something to be decided upon lightly.

“The Black Mermaid”

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#67 Jan 10, 2013
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
Married priests or women priests becoming the norm in the Catholic Church has no bearing on the reality of pedophiles in the Church or in the larger society. Persons who prey on children can and do attempt to hide what they are with a wedding ring as others attempt to hide behind the Roman collar. Unfortunately with the upheval in the Episcopal Church over women priests and openly practicing homosexuals as priests and bishops does little to back your statement that "the Lay Church Membership could both understand and accept". Some may but unless all do all that would come of it is more schism.
Pax, you're very wise. A wedding ring can be no more than a prop.

Hope your holidays were happy :)

“The Black Mermaid”

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#68 Jan 10, 2013
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many who do not fully agree with Freud on this issue. Sexuality may be "a" key and a useful one at that but to see it as the only key leaves much out of the picture of what makes humans choose "abnormal behaviors."
Also, masturbation is perfectly normal. I mean, tho, don't do it on Main St. God put it there for a reason; how to get to know oneself sexually and for people who have no partners. It is downright emotionally unhealthy to totally suppress. And it is not "taught" - all of us discover it ourselves sometime during childhood. If it were sinful, God would not have made us this way.

But again, don't do it on Main St.; same with urinating. Not wrong, just personal.
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#69 Jan 10, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I think people that have a normal outlet for their innate sex drive (marriage or relationship) would tend to have less abnormal expressions of that sexual energy. I think celebacy is a much more difficult thing than the Church realizes or cares to admit.
"Many young men at a very early age were recruited into it before they understood themselves or their own sexual identity," Kennedy says. "Their psycho-sexual maturation has been put on hold, so to speak, when they go in. So as a result they tend to act out with young people who were more or less the age they were when their maturation process stopped." - Eugene Kennedy, former priest, as quoted by Judy Muller ABC News
Please an ex-priest telling of a practice of recruiting young men to the priesthood before psychological eximanations or criminal background checks were the norm. I know of a young man who was told to get some college in and then try again. No, doubt so he could better find his sexual identity before seminary. There is a case close to where I live of a fifteen year old who is now in custody for the rape and murder of his three year old step sister. My thought is he was pursuing a "sexual outlet" that seemed perfectly "normal" to him. This is a sickness that goes beyond just having access to marriage or other relationships as an outlet for sexual desires. Celibacy in itself is not a cause of this sickness though I do accept the reality of abusers attempting to hide what they are with the vow of celibacy though I would have to add that it is harder to do this.
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#70 Jan 10, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Human psychology is very complex and far from being an exact science. However, researchers have found strong correlations between abnormal sexual development and various deviant behaviors. Sexual desire is not a learned behavior it is hormonal. Once it’s turned on it can’t just be turned off like some childish imaginary desire without some consequences. A life of celibacy is not something to be decided upon lightly.
I agree. In that the most well adjusted priests I know entered seminary in their late twenties to forties.
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#71 Jan 10, 2013
Sherlayne wrote:
<quoted text>
Pax, you're very wise. A wedding ring can be no more than a prop.
Hope your holidays were happy :)
My holidays were really nice. I hope yours were too. It is unfortunate that a ring is no guarantee that a sexual deviant isn't wearing it.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#72 Jan 10, 2013
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
My holidays were really nice. I hope yours were too. It is unfortunate that a ring is no guarantee that a sexual deviant isn't wearing it.
Dear Pax,

With respect to this conversation, and please do not consider my question as either facetious or insincere, what do you mean by "a sexual deviant?"

Rev. Ken
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#73 Jan 10, 2013
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
Please an ex-priest telling of a practice of recruiting young men to the priesthood before psychological eximanations or criminal background checks were the norm. I know of a young man who was told to get some college in and then try again. No, doubt so he could better find his sexual identity before seminary. There is a case close to where I live of a fifteen year old who is now in custody for the rape and murder of his three year old step sister. My thought is he was pursuing a "sexual outlet" that seemed perfectly "normal" to him. This is a sickness that goes beyond just having access to marriage or other relationships as an outlet for sexual desires. Celibacy in itself is not a cause of this sickness though I do accept the reality of abusers attempting to hide what they are with the vow of celibacy though I would have to add that it is harder to do this.
I don’t think Kennedy was talking about a need for “psychological eximanations or criminal background checks” for candidates for the priesthood. He was referring to problems that young men might have with their “psycho-sexual maturation” caused by an abnormal repression of their entirely normal sexual urges. Again, choosing a celibate lifestyle is not a decision that should be taken lightly.

A 15 year-old raping his 3 year-old sister is in no way a “normal” expression of a natural sex urge. It is extremely deviant behavior. Obviously something went wrong his “psycho-sexual maturation”. That’s the point I’m trying to make; if you disrupt in some way the “normal” expression of the very powerful sex drive innate in all of us you’re very likely to see it manifaested in deviant behavior.

I’m sure a celibate life style is not always easy even for a mature, well-adjusted man. Whether you’re a priest or a plumber you don’t just turn your sex drive off!
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#74 Jan 10, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I don’t think Kennedy was talking about a need for “psychological eximanations or criminal background checks” for candidates for the priesthood. He was referring to problems that young men might have with their “psycho-sexual maturation” caused by an abnormal repression of their entirely normal sexual urges. Again, choosing a celibate lifestyle is not a decision that should be taken lightly.
A 15 year-old raping his 3 year-old sister is in no way a “normal” expression of a natural sex urge. It is extremely deviant behavior. Obviously something went wrong his “psycho-sexual maturation”. That’s the point I’m trying to make; if you disrupt in some way the “normal” expression of the very powerful sex drive innate in all of us you’re very likely to see it manifaested in deviant behavior.
I’m sure a celibate life style is not always easy even for a mature, well-adjusted man. Whether you’re a priest or a plumber you don’t just turn your sex drive off!
I was telling of what is in place now to attempt to weed out those whose "psycho-sexual maturation" may not be in place or may be deviant. This has been put in place in seminaries along with more open formation on celibacy. I still do not see the connection between choosing celibacy and the potential for deviant behavior. Just look at Penn State. The coach that was abusing was of all things openly married.
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#75 Jan 10, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Dear Pax,
With respect to this conversation, and please do not consider my question as either facetious or insincere, what do you mean by "a sexual deviant?"
Rev. Ken
This was a specific reference in my mind to anyone who preys on children as a way to relieve sexual tension.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#77 Jan 10, 2013
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
This was a specific reference in my mind to anyone who preys on children as a way to relieve sexual tension.
OK.

But, I am sure you have a broader definition than that. I certainly do.

However, based upon the growing and clarifying body of research into the causes and expressions of human sexuality and sexual orientation, I have come to understand that homosexuality, per se, is part of the normal spectrum of human sexual expression.

The Roman Church and some other denominations and segments of Christian monastic orders, and including the schools of other religions, have promoted celibacy for many centuries.

I think this practice is fundamentally flawed when it is used as a condition of entry. It doesn't necessarily result in an internal culture of homosexuality. But, that IS exactly what has happened in these institutions.

Go figure.

Rev. Ken
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#78 Jan 11, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
OK.
But, I am sure you have a broader definition than that. I certainly do.
However, based upon the growing and clarifying body of research into the causes and expressions of human sexuality and sexual orientation, I have come to understand that homosexuality, per se, is part of the normal spectrum of human sexual expression.
The Roman Church and some other denominations and segments of Christian monastic orders, and including the schools of other religions, have promoted celibacy for many centuries.
I think this practice is fundamentally flawed when it is used as a condition of entry. It doesn't necessarily result in an internal culture of homosexuality. But, that IS exactly what has happened in these institutions.
Go figure.
Rev. Ken
You asked what I was refering to and I told you. No more, no less.
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#79 Jan 11, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
OK.
But, I am sure you have a broader definition than that. I certainly do.
However, based upon the growing and clarifying body of research into the causes and expressions of human sexuality and sexual orientation, I have come to understand that homosexuality, per se, is part of the normal spectrum of human sexual expression.
The Roman Church and some other denominations and segments of Christian monastic orders, and including the schools of other religions, have promoted celibacy for many centuries.
I think this practice is fundamentally flawed when it is used as a condition of entry. It doesn't necessarily result in an internal culture of homosexuality. But, that IS exactly what has happened in these institutions.
Go figure.
Rev. Ken
Rev. Ken,I do find it interesting that you chose to question a post that was not dirested to you and yet had no comment on the one that did.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#80 Jan 11, 2013
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
I was telling of what is in place now to attempt to weed out those whose "psycho-sexual maturation" may not be in place or may be deviant. This has been put in place in seminaries along with more open formation on celibacy. I still do not see the connection between choosing celibacy and the potential for deviant behavior. Just look at Penn State. The coach that was abusing was of all things openly married.
"Celibacy may lead to psychological problems. Some celibates who say they have no difficulty with sexual suppression nonetheless develop symptoms such as irritability, insomnia, somatization, or clinical depression," - Dr. Domeena C. Renshaw, professor of psychiatry at the Loyola University of Chicago

These of course would be relatively mild manifestations compared to child abuse.

It’s entirely probable that Jerry Sandusky had problems with his “psycho-sexual maturation” before his marriage which caused his sexual behavioral dysfunction. He and his wife had 6 adopted children none natural. His marriage was very likely a cover for his sexual dysfunction. Which might also account for his wife’s implausible denial of any knowledge of any wrong doing?

I’m not suggesting a celibate lifestyle guarantees deviant behavior, but I do think the research shows that it can cause psychological and behavioral problems and both you and the Church seem to dismiss that as a real possibility.
Pax et Bonum

Rootstown, OH

#81 Jan 11, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
"Celibacy may lead to psychological problems. Some celibates who say they have no difficulty with sexual suppression nonetheless develop symptoms such as irritability, insomnia, somatization, or clinical depression," - Dr. Domeena C. Renshaw, professor of psychiatry at the Loyola University of Chicago
These of course would be relatively mild manifestations compared to child abuse.
It’s entirely probable that Jerry Sandusky had problems with his “psycho-sexual maturation” before his marriage which caused his sexual behavioral dysfunction. He and his wife had 6 adopted children none natural. His marriage was very likely a cover for his sexual dysfunction. Which might also account for his wife’s implausible denial of any knowledge of any wrong doing?
I’m not suggesting a celibate lifestyle guarantees deviant behavior, but I do think the research shows that it can cause psychological and behavioral problems and both you and the Church seem to dismiss that as a real possibility.
So you are saying that Jerry Sandusky's situation seems to show that it was not marriage that made him an abuser. Whaterver caused him to abuse was already in place. I get that. I contend that it is not celibacy that causes the sexual abuse of children. That the propensity to abuse is already there before celibacy is supposedly taken on. One could easily change "celibacy" to marriage, "celibates" to some who are married, and "sexual suppression" to sexual expression and find those to whom the rest of the quote fits. The study of human behavior is just not that easily boxed and packaged.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#82 Jan 11, 2013
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
Rev. Ken,I do find it interesting that you chose to question a post that was not dirested to you and yet had no comment on the one that did.
Did not mean to disregard.

Which post # is the one I didn't answer?
Dan

Omaha, NE

#83 Jan 12, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
OK.
But, I am sure you have a broader definition than that. I certainly do.
However, based upon the growing and clarifying body of research into the causes and expressions of human sexuality and sexual orientation, I have come to understand that homosexuality, per se, is part of the normal spectrum of human sexual expression.
The Roman Church and some other denominations and segments of Christian monastic orders, and including the schools of other religions, have promoted celibacy for many centuries.
I think this practice is fundamentally flawed when it is used as a condition of entry. It doesn't necessarily result in an internal culture of homosexuality. But, that IS exactly what has happened in these institutions.
Go figure.
Rev. Ken
You may want to clarify this post, Ken.
To me, it reads-
"I believe homoseuality is normal. Mandatory celibacy as a condition to become a cleric is fundamentally flawed practice as it may result in an internal culture of homosexuality".
Two questions arise right away-
1.) if homosexuality is normal. who cares if it was the "internal culture"?
2.) you have, many times, correlated the celibacy requirement as a causative to pedophilia. If celebacy results in a homosexual culture, is homosexual culture predisposed to pedophilia? You're making that link with this post.

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