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#7968 May 10, 2014
Your description of a Ponzi Scheme is wrong. A Ponzi Scheme is when a person or business pay old investors with money from new investors instead of profits from the enterprise. It only last as long as you get new suckers to pay the old suckers. Bernie Madoff was doing just that because it is impossible to give people 15% return on their money, year after year. What the HOP has done, in my view, is mix church and personal business together, which will one day threaten the tax-exempt status of the church, because there is no separation of one from another. Those folk up in Portal Drive have done and are probably still some shady stuff that will be revealed on day. It's probably worst than what our minds can comprehend.
#7969 May 10, 2014
Whats wrong with you, you cant be that dense. You cant keep defending something you know is wrong. You think you should hang around waiting for the bomb to explode. Dont you know when Portal Drive fall you will fall too.
What they are doing too the people are a Ponzi scheme. Any time you give money and get nothing in return its a Ponzi scheme. No one is benefiting but the persons whos collecting. You cant turn around this get rich scheme to suit your church purposes. Did you know they never took Social Security out of their secretaries checks? Now they are ready to retire with a hand out, not a pension and dont have enough points in Social Security to collect it. In todays economy you need both checks to survive unless you were smart enough to invest.
These secretaries thought they were blessed to be working for these men. Some of them have nothing to show for their hard work and the years they put in it.
I bet you would not work for anyone for free. The UHOP used its members like a rag and is still doing it. This is not what God wants, this is what Man wants.
Stop talking around in circles and admit the UHOP is a lie. Believe me you will feel better once you admit the truth. You wont have to think so hard on how to answer our questions, it will come naturally.
#7970 May 11, 2014
Gee-Tee you are so predictable and emotional. Calm down. I am just as free as you are. You need to define Ponzi Scheme to acknowledge that I have this right and you are totally wrong. Once again your hatred for all things HOP has blinded you to the facts. Folk working in the kitchen for G Class is ok as long as it's free will. I do have a problem with several of the houses going to arenas and stadiums and pouring beer. Someone once added if it would be ok to open a brothel and the ministers said that was wrong but they saw nothing wrong with make a little g class off selling beer. But guess what? Other churches would do the same thing. Let me ask all of you HOP hating former members a simple question, name me one time when the church was not imperfect? Get your bible out and show me. But let me help you out. The church has always had issues. Always. Every book or letter written was dealing with some issue or another. No church or religious order has ever had it all together so how in the heck do you expect the HOP to be the exception? We are just as human and sinful as all those folk in the bible. We might even be better.
I'll be waiting on your hateful and hate-filled response Gee-Tee. FYI, I am a cool cat but I am really getting tired of your questioning my intelligence. Once you find out about me one day, you will be told that I ain't no fool.
#7971 May 11, 2014
And as far as secretaries, the larger issue is with Pastors. They are responsible to pay their own taxes. Daddy McCollough told them to do this but many did not. When I have collected checks at Real Estate closings or the profits from a property sale, I am responsible for my taxes. Many of these so called smart men are just plain stupid when it comes to this issue. It is one of the biggest reasons so many pastor until they die. They don't have any other source of income. Again that is not a Ponzi Scheme but stupidity on the part of the worker. My mom worked for the HOP for many years and SHE paid her own taxes. Maybe she was smarter because she prepares taxes but she did the right thing.
#7972 May 11, 2014
You call my writings the H word, how would you know what love is since you want to discredit how I say it as to what Im saying. You remind me of the people that like to call you anti-Semitic only because you speak the truth.
Get over my tone and understand my message. There are a lot of things you dislike about the UHOP, yet you are willing to accept their flaws because we are not perfect, for the life of me, why.
Whats this find out about me thing, one thing for sure who ever you are you still want to hang out with us nobodies on this board?
I dont think you are stupid, you have plenty book sense, but very little Common Sense when it comes to the UHOP. I wasnt talking about your house secretaries; I was talking about the secretaries that work at Portal Drive. By the way their salaries were and are still are so low, they needed every dime just to survive.
Why dont the UHOP pay their house secretaries a salary anyway? That should never be free will; its a non paid job. The people in the mission buy the food, cook the food, serve the food and give all their profits to the UHOP. And you want to say they do this free will.
I never said Churches were perfect, but your Church claims to be the one and only Church God will recognize, so shouldnt your Church stand out from what all the other Churches are doing.
Since you feel the workers in the UHOP are stupid, who do you think should educate them? All they know is what your Daddies say to do. Dont you think he should at lease be leading them in the right direction on how to live before he teaches them how to die?
#7973 May 11, 2014
I write the word hate because it is what you have towards the HOP. It's my inner FDR. He spoke on this in 1936 in MSG.
I hate that Target and Wal Mart pay their workers so little, yet make billions in profits but we all still shop there. We could all list things and practices we dislike yet we still have to do business there or choose to. Why can't you give some love to the members of the church if you can't respect its leaders. You love to say HOP members don't read their bibles but I am a member and I read mine. So that statement is not true.
You over looked the Ponzi Scheme correction. But that how you all roll. And nothing about the churches issues in the Bible you and I read. Again that's how you all roll. One of your buds says something, the comments roll in on how profound the remark is. But when someone who is not afraid of debating or discussing things we agree and disagree on, crickets.
Neither you or I know what those secretaries make or if they take out their own taxes. Again it is their responsibility. Millions of Americans are classified as independent contractors and are responsible for their government levies.
And again just because someone chooses to do think in a different way doesn't make them stupid or smart. They just make stupid or smart decisions. I have spoken with and will continue to speak with members about the mess we are in. As I have said before I don't feel I could get 25 members to sit down and hire an attorney to demand an audit of the church. Folk are just afraid. I ain't one of them but that's just the fact of live. If it could be done alone I would have no problem doing it because people can't really do anything to me to make me run away from doing what is right.
#7974 May 11, 2014
You like to say I write with or have that word about the UHOP. I have said many times that certain words can consume you. So I try not to use them. As a child we use to say sticks and stones may break my bones but names could never harm you. You can say one wrong word to a child and it can change their whole life. If you talk negative words most of the time its how you feel about or see it in your self. Try removing that word from your vocabulary; its a strong and powerful word. Speaking ones mind dose not mean that word. Its your opinion of that person because you dont like what they said. You said I dont know you; well that can go both ways.
You may settle but I dont shop in Wal-Mart or Target, no matter what they have. I stand by my principles. I learned how to cook my own Chinese food because they dont hire blacks. Just because dont mean you have to settle. My convictions dont change because I have choices.
Ive never said all UHOP members dont read the Bible. I would never make a broad statement like that. I always said most of them, not all. I have also said the UHOP have a lot of good people that believe obedience is better then a sacrifice. So they would rather obey these men then to sacrifice something for the Lord.
Dont twist my words to suit your self. Read my statements with understanding. I re-read your statements before I answer you.
You dont think the UHOP is running a Ponzi scheme so be it, I call it as I see it.
90 years is long enough to keep a group of people stuck on stupid.
#7975 May 11, 2014
Why is it that you take my replies so personal? This is a debate we are having about right and wrong. There is nothing you have said to make me come to these strong analyses about you. I have no dislike about you or other UHOP members.
Die hard UHOP members visit and call to check on me all the time. I grew up with these people. Even through I feel very strongly about its teaching, this has nothing to do with how I feel about the members.
You need to re-think your feelings before you start putting your guilt on me. Are you that mad I had the guts to leave and can talk about it. Guess what, Im still here. You really need to stop using that word. Its consuming your thoughts, you are becoming paranoid about the wrong things.
#7976 May 11, 2014
I do not hate any one, including you. But hate is present. Do you believe that most white folk who dis-like President Obama have zero hatred for him? I disagree with a lot of what he has done and more for what he hasn't done but I love him. I knew the policies of both Bush's and Regean were hurtful to our nation but I never once had hatred for them. People have hate for me for just being a black man. Maybe I'm too much Malcolm and not enough Martin but still they hate me without a cause. Words are important but truth is important as well. I respect you decision to not use that word but I ain't there yet. And I have no reason to feel that will ever change.
You say I take things personal. No, you do. I have read as you and others have judged and take my church and it's leader to task. When you have been correct, I have agreed with you but when you have crossed the line I have spoken up on that also. An example was when someone said Daddy Bailey never went to see the sick. I corrected them and said he visited my mom. I got the gist of what was bring said but it was off a little. The bigger issue isn't him but the HOP ministers. My mom was hospitalized for a long time and not one minister from GWH came to visit her including the Pastor or Asst Pastor. That's a bigger isdue than a Bishop, who should be too busy for such task. Back to my two month revival.
#7977 May 12, 2014
How well do you know African history. More importantly ancient Egyptian history. The reason I ask is because I wanted to know why you felt as if the hop and any other church purpose is correct. Meaning a house if God? Why do you believe this?
#7978 May 12, 2014
Brother @Lorenzo you are very intellectual. I have to admit I like the way you twist the discussions around. No one said Brother Bailey NEVER visits the sick. We've said that he typically has a policy that if you don't have a certain financial status in the UHOP he doesn't pray for you. Now are there exceptions to the rule of course there are. He'll go to your funeral if he knows you or he finds favor in you. He damn sure didn't stop what he was doing to go to St. Madame McCollough's funeral. Wait I forgot he was too busy going to convocation in LA. With all the money he makes you mean to tell me he couldn't hop his behind on a jet and come to the services then get back to the money I mean convocation.
He damn sure called my mother when she was sick and collected all of her G-Class money she was donating hoping that she would be healed of her cancer. His behind couldn't show his face at the funeral. He sent a card though. She talked to him personally when the doctor said she didn't think going to LA was a good deal. He said "Keep the faith GOD's got you" some stupid religious cliche. She went to LA got sick and couldn't even fly home. Then he flipped and said if I had known she was that sick I would have told her to stay home. My question is why didn't he know? I'll answer it he's human. He's so busy with his head in that holy fairy tale that he didn't take the time to understand the severity of her illness. Trust me I have several friends that can tell you the same story across the 90 year history of the UHOP.
He didn't take his butt to the hospital to see her in LA. Probably too embarrassed that his prophecy failed. I don't even take that personal. I came to realize the antics of these men so I expected nothing less. Before you flip the discussion I don't blame the UHOP or him for her untimely death. The point I'm making is that the false teachings are causing more harm than help to our black brothers and sisters. Ignoring the problem is not going to make it go away.
#7979 May 12, 2014
Man I was getting ready to ask the same question. Brother @Lorenzo you're talking to people who have transcended the belief in "modern church". We can discuss it differently but we stick with in the per view of the understanding of our UHOP sisters and brothers. Trust me it doesn't stop with leaving the UHOP and just going to another "church". Once the scales come off as this brother is appropriately named there's a wealth of knowledge and understanding that you likely had no idea existed.
BTW @Lorenzo please stop using the premise that all churches are flawed. That is what we have said from the beginning. You're proving our argument. In contrast brother I've said often you really don't want to compare the problems of your church to other churches. You'll find some ugly truths.
#7980 May 12, 2014
I'm about to end this Ponzi Scheme discussion right now. Brother @Lorenzo you didn't define a PS nor did you take the time to consider why I made a comparison. I'll drop it in your universe though. You're clearly a smart brother so I'm sure you'll follow.
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme.
Investors--G-Class workers, tithe payers
Fraudulent investment--G-Class/tithes paying money to GOD or for GOD's purpose with the promise of a better chance at getting to heaven in the after-life.
Short term returns--Cheap apartments, buses, church buildings
New Capital--Daddy's Club increasing the amount required to keep the scheme going.
New Investors--All of the babies born and indoctrinated before they can even speak. I.E. putting a child who doesn't have any income on a G-Class floor.
Perpetuation of high long term returns--Propaganda that suggests GOD is not pleased and needs "works"; i.e. money paid in the church in order to increase the chances of making it to heaven.
Here's the most important part of the definition: "pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator." It is important to note that the operator is paid by the investors while from the onset of the scheme said operator had nothing to invest. "Give me your money and I'll put you on top my children."~~Daddy Grace (paraphrasing)
Now if you can tell me that this doesn't apply then I'll humbly dismiss myself from the discussion.
#7981 May 12, 2014
@Lorenzo Dear friend it is crystal clear, that you are a competent intellectual, and a savvy person who uses the gift of reason. You obviously possess the ability to accurately ID the errors you know exist in the HOP. It is apparent you are more than capable of doing your own independent research on the HOP and orgs like it. I am sure you can use simple deductive reasoning and clear but basic logic to review the HOP and its plethora of non scriptural practices, when you do this you will see the exceptional art of deceit being practiced by the HOP leadership. They go so far as to discourage questioning the orgs practice and demonize anyone who does. This is only done when one has a lie to hide. Thus imprisoning your mind. The HOP hangs folks on the faith platform. But do your research on what faith really is and who you are only supposed to have your faith in. Then just simply look at the results. The metrics tracking HOP folk is that they are caged creatures who wont get out even if you leave the cage door open. The HOP leadership has mastered the manufacturing of ignorance.
This is true you must understand the fruition of your belief will have everlasting rewards or consequences.
Faith is not a platform of ignorance but a starting place for understanding.
Oh and for the record:
noun: Ponzi scheme; plural noun: Ponzi schemes
1. a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a nonexistent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.
#7982 May 12, 2014
Cultastic your first post about the Bishop was spot on but you went off course in trying to fit G-Class in to a Ponzi scheme frame. You say folk give for the promise of getting in to heaven. That is something a lost HOP member would say. I have always given, I never use the word pay, for the blessing. If I give, as it says in Luke 6, it shall be given back to me. Pressed down, running over, etc. But here again is where I depart from most, that verse is also talking about giving other things. I give peace, love, happiness, etc.
The new investors part is also off. They ain't just putting un born babies on the floor, they are putting dead folk and dogs. I said to a friend that I could shut this nonsense down in 30 seconds. Let's put Daddy Grace and Mimister Louis Farrakhan on Daddy's Club to show the craziness of this mess. As an a side I have never been on Daddy's Club and I never will be. I told my pastor if I $10,000 he'll get it for church offering and not g class because I want a/c instead of a cheap pendant. The part about young people is off only because the next generation of HOP members, whether new or young, are not gonna go for what the church is offering. This thing cannot last at its current pace. I read a book many years ago called "Our Iceberg Is Melting", it a book who cover looks like a children's book but it's about change. Icebergs melt from the inside and are visible on the outside. One of the first points is to have a since of urgency. The HOP is like that iceberg. It is resistant to change. And has zero sense of urgency, in dealing with greedy dogs. G-Class was given to Daddy McCollough, the Resurrection Program, and if it done right it's fine. Not a Ponzi Scheme. It ain't a sin to admit you are mixing up the wrong metaphors. I get it, you think G-Class is a scheme for the church. Point taken.
#7983 May 12, 2014
Damn... That's all I can say. Wow. Blown away.
#7984 May 12, 2014
No denying that. In the words of public enemy. Shut'em down. Hold it now!!!! Wow. Oh got one more kool moe d. How you like me now? Wow
Now that is a monster shout. Ain't no coming behind that. Pack up and go home. Cultastic. You on fire.
#7985 May 12, 2014
The resurrection program? Who is rising...McCollough that's who. Now if you say well the payers will get theirs on the other side. Than their is your false hope!
Now let's be real clear. Walter prophesied about a great famine to come to the United States and the g-class was to get your place in line. And according to your numbers you would be fed.
Again this is another fable. The point of collecting tithes for the up build of the kingdom and g class for the up build of the kingdom is ludicrous.
Ok one last example, this a parable follow with me.
What do you say to the hard core believer. Who went on their knees and prayed to the Almighty God the Supreme Being. And told him to bless them with a job because their bills are 2000.00 a month. And God says ok. In fact I will give you 2500 a month.
The First thing Clarence and the pastors are going to do is tell her she owe 250.00 for her tithes. And then they are going to tell her she need to pay 2000.00 every quarter. Which breaks down to 666.66 per month. Now this poor sister or brother now only has 1584 Left and they have to at least give the pastor 5.00 a week. Which 20.00 more dollars. Now they are left at 1564. For giggles. Let's just say this person is on a club and they have a program and the expense is 50.00. So now try are down to 1514. And very short of their bills of 2000.00. And when they do to pray again. Do you think GOD repeats proverbs 1: 26 - 28.
What then shall this soul do, when the church has taken from her and left her in a deficit. Keep in mind God blessed her with 500.00 over and she lost that as well.
Don't the church owe her to help her pay her bills. Because she would not have paid it all in their if the spiritual advisor Sweet daddy Clarence had not advised her to do such.
The pastors would not advise her to do it if Clarence didn't beat them up about the house income. So don't you think they are responsible.
Jesus said protect my sheep. Sheep are a docile and dumb animal. Jesus knew that when he classified the people.
Is Clarence protecting the sheep when they are being evicted from hop properties they paid for. I.e. The up build of the kingdom went to the apartments and the buses yet you can't stay for free.
Why not? Instead you have to pay twice for you living arrangements. Once for your rent and once for your glass that supposedly goEs to the same thing and the bus ride too!
Where is the GOD EL YHWH. Where is he in that. Tell me dear brother Lorenzo, gods buddy I mean friend, and all others who dare to comment. Tell me where is God in that.
#7986 May 12, 2014
How do you know whats in our hearts? Not until you remove that H word from your vocabulary that love peace and happiness you talk about will only be your dream. How do you know whats presented if its not in you. If you think love you will see love. Disagreements dont breed distrust.
You disagree with a lot of things the President has not done, yet you wont make these Bishops accountable for what they should do. The President is not taking money from already oppressed people, your Bishops are. You have a lot of people below the President to make accountable. You want to start at the top for accountability and let these free loaders continue business as usually.
Question on the same day, in the same breath McCollough said the UHOP had enough money to last until the end of time then he started G-Class.
If this was not a scheme to collect more money from the people why beg for more. He continued Graces scheme to better him self financially. You said Puffy visit your mother when she was sick, how come you wont tell us her number. You may not give the 2,000 require of you but I bet you make sure your mother gives hers.
Puffy was not supposed to dismiss the First Lady of the UNOP Funeral. She was the only first lady the UHOP had that they could relate to. None of Grace Wives traveled with him and met the people. If Puffy claimed to be a Man of Who he was supposed to act better.
You dance all around our questions trying to undermine us. Prove us wrong, there has not been one point you have made that discredit our finding. You dwell on how we feel. A feeling has nothing to do with the truth that is being told.
#7987 May 12, 2014
Gee-Tee there you go again. Your last statement about undermining "us" speaks volumes. I have never gotten an "amen" from any of those, you call "us". It like arguing with a conservative Republicsn. They never acknowledge that the other side sometimes has a point. I have never tried to undermine any of you. Here is how I think through a lot of things. I acknowledge the point and then I ask my self does it apply to this or that. Like when I pointed to the folk talking about issues in the HOP. My mind just reminded me that all these books and letters that I read in my bible were dealing with issues, at that time. Today a brother on the radio was ranting about Michael Sam, the gay football player who was drafted. He spoke about what the bible said and how children were watching him kiss his boyfriend on TV. Ok here is what came to my mind. Folk kill each other on tv too. But he ain't said nothing about that. Folk have pre-marital sex on TV. But no outrage there. Folk cuss on TV. It's getting quiet now. And the bible talking about lying and stealing. What about killing. Oh I forgot, it's ok to kill as long as you're standing your ground. Or if it's for America. Or executing someone in one of our states but the bible says thou shalt not kill.
If that is undermining, well I am guilty but someone with some sense will see my point. But it just won't be any of you.#CantNeverGetAnAmen
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