Out of darkness, Indiana's first saint

Our position: Blessed Mother Theodore Guerin's historic life provides a lesson in faith and courage edifying for all. Full Story
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Cheryl

Indianapolis, IN

#1 Oct 14, 2006
Beautiful acknowledgement of a wonderful human being who is past due such appreciation and praise. Nice editorial! Whomever wrote it.
Howard

Detroit, MI

#2 Oct 14, 2006
A very up-building article. Thanks you very much.
oldthinker

Carmel, IN

#3 Oct 14, 2006
It is likely a good work this lady has done. At least as far as anyone knows she has been a blessing.

The thing I see here is that is does not matter who men approve but it is who God approves and that is what makes one a saint. To thing people can make a saint by some decree is presumptious at best because it puts us in the postition of playing God.
csd619

United States

#4 Oct 15, 2006
oldthinker wrote:
It is likely a good work this lady has done. At least as far as anyone knows she has been a blessing.
The thing I see here is that is does not matter who men approve but it is who God approves and that is what makes one a saint. To thing people can make a saint by some decree is presumptious at best because it puts us in the postition of playing God.
Since this was a an act by the vatican, you could merely look at it like this, the Catholic chirch has bestowed on this great woman the highest honor of the church. no need to look for relegious negativity in such a wonderful thing.
oldthinker

Carmel, IN

#5 Oct 15, 2006
Are you saying that it is negative to leave the decisions up to God who is a saint and who is not?
csd619

United States

#6 Oct 15, 2006
oldthinker wrote:
Are you saying that it is negative to leave the decisions up to God who is a saint and who is not?
No I am not, and please dont try to start an argument where there is none.
All I am saying is this, in both forums related to this canonized Nun, you are claiming that your subscribed beliefs of christianity are more correct that catholicism.
If sainthood is something that only God allmighty himself could bestow upon a persons who lived the life of Christ's teachings, how would we the living the who the saints are? Is it not true that the early Catholic Church proclaimed sainthood for the diciples of Christ?
If you were to subscribe to your particular line of thinking in this subject matter, then it would only be up to God himself to determin who is a deacon, a minister, a preist, a cardinal, a bishop, and so on, after all those are only "ranks" in Christianity.
But to use this forum as a platform to bash the Catholic Church and its ranks is wrong. You saying this woman is not truly a saint is no different than the vatican saying she is. You are no more able to speak the mind of God than I am, or the Pontiff is. And when you get right down to it, claiming to know your stated position is true because it says so in the Bible, is no different either, as it was not written directly by the hand of God, but a mere interpretation of the word of God by mortal men just like you and I.
Again, I implore you to not look for negativity in something so wonderful as the honor bestowed on this Nun for a life of service to her Church.
Jean-Pierre Fortin

Miami Beach, FL

#7 Oct 16, 2006
may her departing soul
toward heaven
take wing...
oldthinker

Carmel, IN

#8 Oct 16, 2006
Matthew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name: and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are the very words of Jesus himself. They show us that people may have one opinion of themselves or of others while God has a vastly different view of the person for God looks on the heart of a man. I Samuel 16:7

I never bashed the Catholic church and do not believe that is a proper thing to do, what I am saying is that it is not whom men approve that counts in the final analysis but whom God approves.
Robert Finch

Cabot, AR

#9 Oct 17, 2006
oldthinker wrote:
Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name: and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These are the very words of Jesus himself. They show us that people may have one opinion of themselves or of others while God has a vastly different view of the person for God looks on the heart of a man. I Samuel 16:7
I never bashed the Catholic church and do not believe that is a proper thing to do, what I am saying is that it is not whom men approve that counts in the final analysis but whom God approves.
Since the rising of Jesus to heaven,or the last book of the Bible written, has God declared any here on earth worthy of being called a saint?
If not, then there seems to be a disconnect. I thought God was with us, and working with us all to be saints. If so, then can't we discearn, as followers of God, whom is a saint?
Wranglerman

Jeffersonville, IN

#10 Oct 17, 2006
Though I truly respect you Oldthinker, and I enjoy our conversations, I have to admit to find a reason to lessen the "reward" for Blessed Mother Theodore Guerin's lifes work in the service of God and the Church is kind of crass.
If nothing else this will provide her home church with notability to bring back through the doors parrisioners who have been absent, or attract new church members who have strayed or never really embraced faith.
zoompad

Stafford, UK

#11 Oct 17, 2006
Robert Finch wrote:
<quoted text>
Since the rising of Jesus to heaven,or the last book of the Bible written, has God declared any here on earth worthy of being called a saint?
If not, then there seems to be a disconnect. I thought God was with us, and working with us all to be saints. If so, then can't we discearn, as followers of God, whom is a saint?
I used to belong to a sort of cult church, and we were told that we were all saints.

I had to leave that place though, as they were not always very kind there. I got into trouble for wanting to go home for an hour in order to feed my goldfish. There was a bit of a row about it, I was accused of caring more about animals than about people, but it isn't true, I was only going to be an hour, so in the end, I went to feed my fish and didn't go back again. We weren't supposed to have pets, but I had the fish before I became a christian, I couldn't just dump them, could I?

I broke my leg, and went into hospital, and the church people said "Don't worry, we will look after your animals". But they let the kids put three slices of bread and butter in the fish tank, and one of them died, and one man picked up my gerbil by his tail, and broke the poor things tail. They were laughing about that I was upset about it as well, and I just think thats cruel, and Jesus wouldn't do it.

So now I feel wary of people who are called saints. Maybe God is the best one to decide that. I wouldn't go to another church that said "We are saints" , thats for sure, it seems a bit egoistic to me now, but you just had to follow the rules and regulations then, and do what you were told.
Robert Finch

Cabot, AR

#12 Oct 17, 2006
zoompad wrote:
<quoted text>
I used to belong to a sort of cult church, and we were told that we were all saints.
I had to leave that place though, as they were not always very kind there. I got into trouble for wanting to go home for an hour in order to feed my goldfish. There was a bit of a row about it, I was accused of caring more about animals than about people, but it isn't true, I was only going to be an hour, so in the end, I went to feed my fish and didn't go back again. We weren't supposed to have pets, but I had the fish before I became a christian, I couldn't just dump them, could I?
I broke my leg, and went into hospital, and the church people said "Don't worry, we will look after your animals". But they let the kids put three slices of bread and butter in the fish tank, and one of them died, and one man picked up my gerbil by his tail, and broke the poor things tail. They were laughing about that I was upset about it as well, and I just think thats cruel, and Jesus wouldn't do it.
So now I feel wary of people who are called saints. Maybe God is the best one to decide that. I wouldn't go to another church that said "We are saints" , thats for sure, it seems a bit egoistic to me now, but you just had to follow the rules and regulations then, and do what you were told.
Glad you told me about that. It reminds me of my own "disenchantment" with government institutions, since they are run by various sorts of charactors.
If going to church is just a social gathering, then the individual will be disapponted, as you have been.
I think most religous organizations begin with purely good intentions, but with time, the accumulation of mundane matters, weighs down that original inspiration. So I regret that I must agree with you on most of my encounters with religous institutions that they are a disappointment at best.
So when I enter them, it is with a humble attitude, but wary of their intentions. But isn't this what Jesus wants us to be? I think yes.
However, there is no government institution that I have even the slightest hope of partaking in, that is not thoroughly corrupted at this time.
It makes for me a delemma in trying to reconcile that Christians will lead the nations into the Kingdom of God, when in fact at this time they are totally corrupt.
zoompad

Stafford, UK

#13 Oct 17, 2006
Robert Finch wrote:
<quoted text>
Glad you told me about that. It reminds me of my own "disenchantment" with government institutions, since they are run by various sorts of charactors.
If going to church is just a social gathering, then the individual will be disapponted, as you have been.
I think most religous organizations begin with purely good intentions, but with time, the accumulation of mundane matters, weighs down that original inspiration. So I regret that I must agree with you on most of my encounters with religous institutions that they are a disappointment at best.
So when I enter them, it is with a humble attitude, but wary of their intentions. But isn't this what Jesus wants us to be? I think yes.
However, there is no government institution that I have even the slightest hope of partaking in, that is not thoroughly corrupted at this time.
It makes for me a delemma in trying to reconcile that Christians will lead the nations into the Kingdom of God, when in fact at this time they are totally corrupt.
Well, Jesus did say that wheat and tares would grow together.

I think it was hard for me, as I was a child sex abuse victim, and that does something to a person, sort of smashes them up inside, so they find it hard to make proper judgements about people. A lot of people in the cult had had unhappy childhoods, and I met quite a few abused people, people who had been in abusive childrens homes. I have learned that cults look for weak and vunerable people so I suppose that should be no surprise.

I don't think we should have been calling ourselves saints though, looking back, it seems a very proud thing to do.

Another thing about this funny church, we were encouraged to become celebate, bullied into it even. If you were married, you had to sleep in seperate beds, and only get together when you wanted to make a baby. Some people fell in love, but the elders would not give them consent to marry, and that caused quite a lot of heartbreak. There always seemed to be someone crying, lots of humilation. It's nice not to be there any more. They told you that you would go to Hell if you left, so it was really hard to leave, In the end, I said to God "Well, you'd better kill me then, because it's like being in Hell anyway", and I thought a bolt of thunder and lightning would come, but it didn't, so that was good.

So I don't think people should be proud, and want to be called a saint. Better just to be a human being!
oldthinker

Carmel, IN

#14 Oct 22, 2006
Robert Finch wrote:
<quoted text>
Since the rising of Jesus to heaven,or the last book of the Bible written, has God declared any here on earth worthy of being called a saint?
If not, then there seems to be a disconnect. I thought God was with us, and working with us all to be saints. If so, then can't we discearn, as followers of God, whom is a saint?
Phillipians 4:21 Paul tells the Phillipian church to salute every saint in Christ Jesus. In verse 22 he tells them all the saints salute you. To Paul all who followed Christ were saints. This is the proper application of the word saints in the New Testament days.
oldthinker

Carmel, IN

#15 Oct 22, 2006
Wranglerman wrote:
Though I truly respect you Oldthinker, and I enjoy our conversations, I have to admit to find a reason to lessen the "reward" for Blessed Mother Theodore Guerin's lifes work in the service of God and the Church is kind of crass.
If nothing else this will provide her home church with notability to bring back through the doors parrisioners who have been absent, or attract new church members who have strayed or never really embraced faith.
I would absolutely not desire to lesson the reward of our dear departed sister. The fact is that God is the one who gives rewards and His are much greater than any reward a group of self appointed people may be able to grant many years after someone is already dead.

Give me my flowers while I am living. God will grant me my reward after I am dead or if I live wickedly he will grant me my punishment.

No person and no organization can change that fact.
Robert Finch

Cropwell, AL

#16 Oct 23, 2006
oldthinker wrote:
<quoted text>
Phillipians 4:21 Paul tells the Phillipian church to salute every saint in Christ Jesus. In verse 22 he tells them all the saints salute you. To Paul all who followed Christ were saints. This is the proper application of the word saints in the New Testament days.
Greetings oldthinker:
I would point out that Paul is not limiting the definition of saints in verse 23 and 23. In fact when Paul says "all saints", that must include those that are alive on earth now, those that are dead, and those that are yet to come.
Being a Protestant, I do not remember very much in which were discussed the dead saints, and those yet to be born. But now as a convert to the Catholic viewpoint, I must say there is a great treasure which is the communion of the saints, which I truly pray would be opened by my beloved Protestant brothers and sisters.
To establish here on earth, a list of those saints that lead us to a closer relationship with God, even after their deaths, can in no way be against God's will.
Do you condemn the Catholic Church for keeping this list?
oldthinker

Carmel, IN

#17 Oct 23, 2006
Robert Finch wrote:
<quoted text>
Greetings oldthinker:
I would point out that Paul is not limiting the definition of saints in verse 23 and 23. In fact when Paul says "all saints", that must include those that are alive on earth now, those that are dead, and those that are yet to come.
Being a Protestant, I do not remember very much in which were discussed the dead saints, and those yet to be born. But now as a convert to the Catholic viewpoint, I must say there is a great treasure which is the communion of the saints, which I truly pray would be opened by my beloved Protestant brothers and sisters.
To establish here on earth, a list of those saints that lead us to a closer relationship with God, even after their deaths, can in no way be against God's will.
Do you condemn the Catholic Church for keeping this list?
I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The way to God is through Jesus who gave his life to save the lost. It is not through the saints who cannot atone for man's sin.

Let us not de-value Jesus and communion through Him bought with his own blood sacrifice on the cross.

Everyone needs to read the Bible for themselves and not follow the traditions of men.
Crance

London, KY

#18 Oct 23, 2006
oldthinker wrote:
<quoted text>

Everyone needs to read the Bible for themselves and not follow the traditions of men.
OldThinker,

The Church existed some 300 years before the Bible was in place. Those Early Christians had many practices that some Christians today have left by the wayside.

The Bible was never meant to be the total sum of Christian belief, although, for sure, plenty enough for salvation. In fact, it even says that if everyhing Jesus said were written down 'the world could not hold all of the books needed'.

Just a thought!

Peace
Robert Finch

Cropwell, AL

#19 Oct 23, 2006
oldthinker wrote:
<quoted text>
I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
The way to God is through Jesus who gave his life to save the lost. It is not through the saints who cannot atone for man's sin.
Let us not de-value Jesus and communion through Him bought with his own blood sacrifice on the cross.
Everyone needs to read the Bible for themselves and not follow the traditions of men.
I agree with what you are writing here. Nothing is more important for the salvation of humanity than Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the Son of Man, Whom died, was buried, and arose again, as the Atonement for our sins, and our Salvation.
And I really love the books of Paul to Timothy. At the end of I Timothy the Final Warning was against Gnosticism. The Catholic Church has battled Gnosticism since its beginning. Tradition is not Gnosticsim.
Would you consider it a bad tradition of the Catholic Church to sing the Psalms, or pray, or do miracles, or preach, as Jesus did, he being a Jew under the Law of Moses. Or would you consider it a good tradition?
I am just trying to find some faith and reasoning, that we can agree upon some things including Jesus being the One Mediator, which we agree upon....
oldthinker

Carmel, IN

#20 Oct 24, 2006
Robert, healing was not a tradition but it was a direct act of God.
I agree with you on many things and we do not have to agree on everything to get to Heaven. As you said, the main thing is to follow Christ and be certain he is first in our lives.
You are my brother and lets be happy in hoping we shall meet in Heaven some day because of our Lord and Savor, Jesus Christ.

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