Pope Francis defends atheists

May 23, 2013 Full story: St. Cloud Times 18

Atheists and other nonbelievers largely welcomed Wednesday's remarks by Pope Francis that performing "good works" is not the exclusive domain of people of faith, but rather a place where they and atheists could and should meet.

Full Story

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#1 May 24, 2013
I can't believe no one has started on this one yet.

Yes, even us poor atheists can go to heaven if we do good.

Now where does that leave the creatards that keep lying for Jesus?

“you must not give faith”

Since: Jul 12

Nottingham, UK

#2 May 24, 2013
"good works" is not the exclusive domain of people of faith, but rather a place where they and atheists could and should meet.

No I say lets take this statemeant and beat the pope over the head with it! Some of you know of christopher hitchens challenge
. The pope seem to be giving in on the first point now all we need to do is make him say a long list of the evils that only a religious person can do and we can make the pope say that religon is the perverter of ethics.
Amused

Gardner, MA

#3 May 24, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
I can't believe no one has started on this one yet.
Yes, even us poor atheists can go to heaven if we do good.
Now where does that leave the creatards that keep lying for Jesus?
It does not say what you think it does. It merely acknowledges the obvious, that atheists are capable of doing good works such as charitable donations, volunteering to do good, etc. It says nothing about such good works being a ticket to heaven for atheists, or for believers of other faiths. He just wants atheists to work together with believers on said good works.

Of course, since the charitable endeavors of the church are inextricably intertwined with proselytizing and other promotion of religion, this would amount to co-opting atheist donations and labor for activities that are as much about promotion of religion as they are about providing charitable relief.

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#4 May 24, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
It does not say what you think it does. It merely acknowledges the obvious, that atheists are capable of doing good works such as charitable donations, volunteering to do good, etc. It says nothing about such good works being a ticket to heaven for atheists, or for believers of other faiths. He just wants atheists to work together with believers on said good works.
Of course, since the charitable endeavors of the church are inextricably intertwined with proselytizing and other promotion of religion, this would amount to co-opting atheist donations and labor for activities that are as much about promotion of religion as they are about providing charitable relief.
That is the article that the bot for this thread chose. There are others that do support what I claimed. For example this one:

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php...

The pope said that Jesus was supposed to have redeemed all of us:

"Francis explained himself, "The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us.'But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.' Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!" We must meet one another doing good.'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there." "

The word "redeemed" has a special meaning in this context.

So, assuming the Christians are right, and that is a HUGE assumption, atheists could still get to heaven and there is always the possibility that some Christians could end up in Hell for breaking the various rules that they knew about. Including lying for Jesus.

“Tis the Season for Reason!”

Since: Feb 11

Pale Blue Dot

#5 May 24, 2013
Vatican Representative: Just to Be Clear, Atheists Are Still Going to Hell

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/...
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#6 May 24, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
I can't believe no one has started on this one yet.
Yes, even us poor atheists can go to heaven if we do good.
Now where does that leave the creatards that keep lying for Jesus?
at least consider what an improvement he is over the views of past Popes, and of many Catholics and other religious leaders.

Of course it would be better if we (non-religious types) met with religious people in a neutral area where theology was not even an issue, and good works were the whole endeavor. I would be suspicious of a Church )especially one church rather than ecumenical)-sponsored project of good works, that it might include an element of recruitment. But if the only food pantry in town is run out of the Methodist church, by a coalition of several churches, I do not mind donating to it. I have been there and I saw no relious promotion.

On the other hand, if there is a soup kitchen run by one church, and people have to listen to religious exhortations in order to get fed, then a non-believer should not contribute to that project - unless he/she gets equal time to make the case for skepticism.

As for the issue, of the blood sacrifice of Jesus, it is of course a terrible savage doctrine, verging on cannibalism by metaphor, and any rational person should denounce that whole line of reasoning, beginning with the garden of evil, the snake, original sin, and the whole notion of a need for salvation, and including not blaming eve (Christian ms-ogny) and not accepting the notion of sin or hell or even an afterlife. But for a Catholic Pope, it was nice of him compared with all the nasty stuff that Catholicism has stood for over centuries - stuff that has given rise to some of the ugliest art on earth, and some of the most ruined buildings
(both the carvings and the stained glass, and even the bronze doors).
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#7 May 24, 2013
MrDesoto1 wrote:
Vatican Representative: Just to Be Clear, Atheists Are Still Going to Hell
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/...
some folks are nice enough to define hell as being distant from God, which is a nice prospect to that extent, given how nasty the Biblical God is.
Amused

Gardner, MA

#8 May 24, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> some folks are nice enough to define hell as being distant from God, which is a nice prospect to that extent, given how nasty the Biblical God is.
The advantage of it being an imaginary place is that anyone can define it as they please, and none of them are wrong. Perhaps heaven and hell are the same place, and which you think it is depends of which end of the pitchfork you are on.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#9 May 24, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
The advantage of it being an imaginary place is that anyone can define it as they please, and none of them are wrong. Perhaps heaven and hell are the same place, and which you think it is depends of which end of the pitchfork you are on.
even that would depend on whether one is a sadist or a masochist!

I think the materials of heaven and hell were derived from the nicer and the nastier aspects of planet earth, and the sky. When I sometimes say "what a heavenly day", I refer to blue skies and white clouds without a threat of a bad storm, usually, and also a nice dry warmth, not too dry or too warm - in a climate with enough rain, and also with a bit of winter to make summer more special - and without flies or mosquitos in the vicinity, unless at a distance where swallows are swooping low to catch the mosquitos. Heavenly also requires not seeing all the details of nature, and all the suffering that goes on that we do not see and feel. It also requires not thinking very much. Some really nice music helps - but that is a matter of taste.

Awful noise is hellish. Too hot is hellish. Lava coming downhill headed our way is hellish. Knowing too much and also caring about the realities of suffering in nature is also hellish.
F Roe

Anchorage, AK

#10 May 25, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
I can't believe no one has started on this one yet.
Yes, even us poor atheists can go to heaven if we do good.
Now where does that leave the creatards that keep lying for Jesus?
Pope Francis, if he is quoted in the news accurately, is off the mark on this one. The Catholic Church STANDS on the inerrancy of the Bible, and in that same book, Jesus told MANY, "Unless you believe who I say I am (Son of God), you will die in your sins (and go to hell). Jesus also said, "If you reject me before men, I will reject you before my Father in heaven." Bible also says, there is No other name (than Jesus) under heaven by which ANY man may be saved...yes, Jesus died for us all...but when an Atheist rejects Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, and dies rejecting Him, he will certainly NOT go to heaven. Case closed.

“you must not give faith”

Since: Jul 12

Nottingham, UK

#11 May 25, 2013
F Roe wrote:
<quoted text>
Pope Francis, if he is quoted in the news accurately, is off the mark on this one. The Catholic Church STANDS on the inerrancy of the Bible, and in that same book, Jesus told MANY, "Unless you believe who I say I am (Son of God), you will die in your sins (and go to hell). Jesus also said, "If you reject me before men, I will reject you before my Father in heaven." Bible also says, there is No other name (than Jesus) under heaven by which ANY man may be saved...yes, Jesus died for us all...but when an Atheist rejects Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, and dies rejecting Him, he will certainly NOT go to heaven. Case closed.
What do you mean by inerrancy, the creationists way of looking at genesis literally or the just teachings being true?

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#12 May 25, 2013
F Roe wrote:
<quoted text>
Pope Francis, if he is quoted in the news accurately, is off the mark on this one. The Catholic Church STANDS on the inerrancy of the Bible, and in that same book, Jesus told MANY, "Unless you believe who I say I am (Son of God), you will die in your sins (and go to hell). Jesus also said, "If you reject me before men, I will reject you before my Father in heaven." Bible also says, there is No other name (than Jesus) under heaven by which ANY man may be saved...yes, Jesus died for us all...but when an Atheist rejects Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, and dies rejecting Him, he will certainly NOT go to heaven. Case closed.
There needs to be a charitable outreach program for those people affected by faith based mental illnesses like religion.

Its the only way that the above symptoms can be helped, and the patient returned to once again become a productive member of society instead of a robotic lying cult mouthpiece.
LCNLin

United States

#13 Nov 22, 2013
-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
There needs to be a charitable outreach program for those people affected by faith based mental illnesses like religion.
Its the only way that the above symptoms can be helped, and the patient returned to once again become a productive member of society instead of a robotic lying cult mouthpiece.
Pope Francis defends atheists while
s^eptic remains "
a robotic lying cult mouthpiece."

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#15 Nov 23, 2013
When you donate money to a religious organization, you’re doing much worse than throwing your money away. You’re actively funding evil. If you think that spending a billion dollars to defend pedophiles and rapists is a good use of your hard-earned cash, perhaps you should run for Pope. You could hardly do worse. At least Wall Street is honest about its greed and lust.
LCNLin wrote:
<quoted text>
Pope Francis defends atheists while
s^eptic remains "
a robotic lying cult mouthpiece."

“Tis the Season for Reason!”

Since: Feb 11

Pale Blue Dot

#16 Nov 23, 2013
LCNLin wrote:
<quoted text>
Pope Francis defends atheists while
s^eptic remains "
a robotic lying cult mouthpiece."
If you think the pope and the vatican are going to accept nonbelievers you are even more gullible.
LCNLin

United States

#17 Nov 23, 2013
MrDesoto1 wrote:
<quoted text>
If you think the pope and the vatican are going to accept nonbelievers you are even more gullible.
LOL
LCNLin

United States

#19 Nov 23, 2013
-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
Another hit = LOL - the standard creationist reaction to cognitive dissonance...
some progress as you admit you have "cognitive dissonance.."

Observed Freud's anal state and scatology in your past posts.
LOL
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#20 Nov 23, 2013
F Roe wrote:
<quoted text>
Pope Francis, if he is quoted in the news accurately, is off the mark on this one. The Catholic Church STANDS on the inerrancy of the Bible, and in that same book, Jesus told MANY, "Unless you believe who I say I am (Son of God), you will die in your sins (and go to hell). Jesus also said, "If you reject me before men, I will reject you before my Father in heaven." Bible also says, there is No other name (than Jesus) under heaven by which ANY man may be saved...yes, Jesus died for us all...but when an Atheist rejects Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross, and dies rejecting Him, he will certainly NOT go to heaven. Case closed.
Case maybe NOT closed.

The Bible also says (in an extended 'Last Judgement' set piece in Matthew 25, the actual WORDS OF JESUS) that those who are led off into eternal life will be those who have done selfless good works, and those who will be led off into eternal punishment will be those who FAILED to do selfless good works.

No mention, in this long passage, of the belief status of each of these groups.

So here you have the ACTUAL WORDS OF JESUS saying that works led to heaven.

{I realize that the poster F Roe may have left this thread long ago. just wanted to make this point.]

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